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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #7441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    This explains it Stillwater.
    I have found some revealing information.
    This explains why Palestinians are not getting Ancestor locations in regions inside modern Israel.
    Here below is a snippet from 23andMe’s reference populations and regions:
    Attachment 33289

    23andMe further lists countries with regions from Turkey & Iran to all the way down to Jordan & Saudi Arabia etc..
    (Basically every country in the Middle East from Caucasus to Levant to North East Africa)
    So if you are indigenous Levantine in Ancestry these are the countries and regions within Levant and Near East you can score Ancestor locations from.
    Every country with there regions is listed except Israel?
    Essentially on 23andMe Israel does not exist.
    This explains why Palestinians are only getting Ancestor locations in areas they score DNA Relatives outside of Israel like regions of Lebanon etc it’s there only option.

    Have a look for yourselves people:
    Attachment 33290
    There is huge list.
    Attachment 33291
    Some countries like Turkey and Iran have a whopping 40 & 20 plus regions respectively to score from,but ridiculously Israel is not listed.
    I imagine this revelation is pretty insulting to both Jewish Israeli’s and Palestinians.
    I thought this might be the issue, but imagined they'd get around it. They don't want customers to see either "Palestine" or "Israel" in their results as both can envoke a lot of political sentiment. Of course, the simple solution is to just list the city/region and not the country. Although, now I realize that the absence of a country mention will also evoke a political reaction. This is rather sad and amusing. Even though there would be a reaction from both sides, it would mostly be one sided - not just because of unequal ferver, but because of unequal demographics: most of the world is anti-Israel. Should they ascribe Palestine to the West Bank and Gaza or just list them as "The West Bank" and "Gaza", and simply deal with Jerusalem by listing it as "Israel/Palestine", without a country designater, or simply make it the one region they omit, there will not be enough noise from the pro-Israeli side. Palestinian 23andMe users are effectively victim to anti-Israel sentiment here. Maybe listing such cities and provinces under different regions/locations based on the customer's country of residence can mitigate some of the problem.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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  3. #7442
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Your past posts made it clear that you were going in that direction.
    Yeah
    "One dream, one soul, one prize"
    keep these words in mind and try to see in what direction I want now to go

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    I thought this might be the issue, but imagined they'd get around it. They don't want customers to see either "Palestine" or "Israel" in their results as both can envoke a lot of political sentiment. Of course, the simple solution is to just list the city/region and not the country. Although, now I realize that the absence of a country mention will also evoke a political reaction. This is rather sad and amusing. Even though there would be a reaction from both sides, it would mostly be one sided - not just because of unequal ferver, but because of unequal demographics: most of the world is anti-Israel. Should they ascribe Palestine to the West Bank and Gaza or just list them as "The West Bank" and "Gaza", and simply deal with Jerusalem by listing it as "Israel/Palestine", without a country designater, or simply make it the one region they omit, there will not be enough noise from the pro-Israeli side. Palestinian 23andMe users are effectively victim to anti-Israel sentiment here. Maybe listing such cities and provinces under different regions/locations based on the customer's country of residence can mitigate some of the problem.
    I agree and understand what you mean,but they could do something like this for example:
    85CD1F88-D5F3-44B5-91AF-26A3F696ED3E.png

    So take my map of Italian Peninsula as example but imagine instead a map of the Entire Levant.

    Then for instance where my map says ‘Italy’ it would instead just say ‘Israel/Palestine’

    Where my estimate below say ‘Italian’ it would instead just say ‘Levantine’

    Then for instance where my regional estimate says ‘Lazio’ or ‘Sicily’ you would just have list of regions in both Israel/Palestine but just the region names.

    So under ‘Israel/Palestine’ but not technically politically assigned to either ‘Israel’ or ‘Palestine’
    Last edited by Claudio; Yesterday at 06:46 PM.

  5. #7444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    I agree and understand what you mean,but they could do something like this for example:
    85CD1F88-D5F3-44B5-91AF-26A3F696ED3E.png

    So take my map of Italian Peninsula as example but imagine instead a map of the Entire Levant.

    Then for instance where my map says ‘Italy’ it would instead just say ‘Israel/Palestine’

    Where my estimate below say ‘Italian’ it would instead just say ‘Levantine’

    Then for instance where my regional estimate says ‘Lazio’ or ‘Sicily’ you would just have list of regions in both Israel/Palestine but just the region names.

    So under ‘Israel/Palestine’ but not technically politically assigned to either ‘Israel’ or ‘Palestine’
    I suggested that earlier, but it still will cause a stir, albeit a smaller one (at least on one side). Should some Israeli get a place like Tel-Aviv under "Israel/Palestine", it'll cause them to giggle a bit and will almost surely result in a couple news articles, but no pressure on 23andMe. However, if someone anti-Israel is assigned "Israel/Palestine", and keep in mind that many countries don't recognize Israel's existence, then 23andMe can lose all current and/or potential business in those countries. And should Gaza and the West Bank be listed under "Israel/Palestine", they can face a boycott, even in the west. Furthermore, should someone in an anti-Israel country be assigned a location within Israel with "Israel/Palestine", that can put their life in danger.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    I suggested that earlier, but it still will cause a stir, albeit a smaller one (at least on one side). Should some Israeli get a place like Tel-Aviv under "Israel/Palestine", it'll cause them to giggle a bit and will almost surely result in a couple news articles, but no pressure on 23andMe. However, if someone anti-Israel is assigned "Israel/Palestine", and keep in mind that many countries don't recognize Israel's existence, then 23andMe can lose all current and/or potential business in those countries. And should Gaza and the West Bank be listed under "Israel/Palestine", they can face a boycott, even in the west. Furthermore, should someone in an anti-Israel country be assigned a location within Israel with "Israel/Palestine", that can put their life in danger.
    That’s a bit of a worrisome exaggeration..
    Think how many people who are Muslim or live in a Muslim country have been assigned Ashkenazi,Sephardic or Mizrahi percentages on DNA tests like FTDNA or MyHeritage?
    I hardly imagine they have all been dragged to there local town squares and stoned to death
    23andMe need to stop pussyfooting around,implement the label and map solutions we just discussed,throw caution to the wind and let the chips fall as they may
    Last edited by Claudio; Yesterday at 07:48 PM.

  8. #7446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    That’s a bit of a worrisome exaggeration..
    Think how many people who are Muslim or live in a Muslim country have been assigned Ashkenazi,Sephardic or Mizrahi percentages on DNA tests like FTDNA or MyHeritage?
    I hardly imagine they have all been dragged to there local town squares and stoned to death
    23andMe need to stop pussyfooting around,implement the label and map solutions we just discussed,throw caution to the wind and let the chips fall as they may
    There is still a difference between being assigned a Jewish ethnicity and a location in Tel Aviv. Locals have been attacked in Muslim countries for mistaken Jewish identity. Just what imagine what could happen if a high ranking official was assigned that.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    There is still a difference between being assigned a Jewish ethnicity and a location in Tel Aviv. Locals have been attacked in Muslim countries for mistaken Jewish identity. Just what imagine what could happen if a high ranking official was assigned that.
    Stillwater your just being Paranoid
    You have been watching to many Israeli Spy Thrillers
    8A425230-BC08-4EA7-9527-965B0592C2FF.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleach View Post
    Lebanese muslim



    Lebanese muslim shia



    Lebanese/Palestinian muslim 1



    Lebanese/Palestinian muslim 2

    For perspective, also check this guys BETA results too. He is half Ukrainian (not Jewish) and half Lebanese Jewish. While I'm waiting for a Syrian Jew on 23andme to get a BETA update these results are pretty interesting. You can guess that his Lebanese Jewish parent won't get 100% 'Western Asian & North African'. The lack of 'North African' and 'Ashkenazi' for the Lebanese Jew is something I noticed. Also, most of the 'Greek & Balkan' MAY be from his Ukrainian side, but the other 'Southern European components are probably from the Lebanese Jewish side and likely reflect a minor influence from real Iberian descended Jewry.

    Ukrainian & Lebanese Jew BETA Euro.JPGUkrainian & Lebanese Jew BETA Near Eastern.JPG

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  13. #7449
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    I've been playing with Past3. I took Davidski's West Eurasian .dat file and opened it in Past3. I added myself to it and ran k-medians on it, with k=20 and then something amazing happened. A cluster emerged with with every kind of Western Jew(the Ashkenazi is listed last) and every kind of Mizrachi Jew. It was cluster #4:

     
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001 4
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25002 4
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25003 4
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10 4
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3 4
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew4 4
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5 4
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew7 4
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote1 4
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote2 4
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote3 4
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote4 4
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote5 4
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote6 4
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote7 4
    Sephardic_Jew:GRC12118097 4
    Sephardic_Jew:GRC12118128 4
    Sephardic_Jew:sephardic14bul 4
    Sephardic_Jew:sephardic16bul 4
    Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24402 4
    Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew4953 4

    Anatolia_Barcin_C:I1584 4
    Anatolia_Isparta_EBA:I2495 4
    Anatolia_Isparta_EBA:I2499 4
    Anatolia_Isparta_EBA:I2683 4
    Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200 4
    Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2203 4
    Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2205 4
    Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2206 4
    Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res:MA2208 4
    Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA:MA2210 4
    Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA:MA2212 4
    Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA:MA2213 4
    Assyrian:Assyrian155 4
    Assyrian:Assyrian159 4
    Assyrian:Assyrian164 4
    BedouinA:HGDP00615 4
    BedouinA:HGDP00626 4
    BedouinA:HGDP00628 4
    Cypriot:CYP19 4
    Cypriot:CYP2 4
    Cypriot:CYP5 4
    Cypriot:Cyprus21AJ19 4
    Cypriot:Cyprus22AJ19 4
    Cypriot:Cyprus24AJ19 4
    Cypriot:Cyprus2AJ19 4
    Druze:GS000016135 4
    Druze:GS000016136 4
    Druze:GS000016137 4
    Druze:HGDP00557 4
    Druze:HGDP00558 4
    Druze:HGDP00559 4
    Druze:HGDP00560 4
    Druze:HGDP00561 4
    Druze:HGDP00562 4
    Druze:HGDP00564 4
    Georgian_Jew:GeorgianJew1654 4
    Georgian_Jew:GeorgianJew1671 4
    Iranian_Jew:IranianJew1132 4
    Iranian_Jew:IranianJew1143 4
    Iranian_Jew:IranianJew1409 4
    Iranian_Jew:IranianJew1513 4
    Iranian_Jew:IranianJew1556 4
    Iranian_Jew:IranianJew1832 4
    Iraqi_Jew:IraqiJew1417 4
    Iraqi_Jew:IraqiJew1430 4
    Iraqi_Jew:IraqiJew1771 4
    Iraqi_Jew:IraqiJew4061 4
    Iraqi_Jew:IraqiJew4241 4
    Iraqi_Jew:IraqiJew4291 4

    Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese10AR37 4
    Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese15AR37 4
    Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese1AQ127 4
    Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese1AQ170 4
    Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese22BA23 4
    Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese4AQ115 4
    Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese6AQ115 4
    Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese6AQ170 4
    Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese8AS15 4
    Lebanese_Druze:1056 4
    Lebanese_Druze:1153 4
    Lebanese_Druze:1247 4
    Lebanese_Druze:1271 4
    Lebanese_Druze:252 4
    Lebanese_Druze:555 4
    Lebanese_Druze:799 4
    Lebanese_Druze:927 4
    Lebanese_Druze:971 4
    Lebanese_Druze:981 4
    Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese10AQ127 4
    Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese11AS14 4
    Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese20AR21 4
    Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese24AR27 4
    Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese2AQ121 4
    Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese2AQ127 4
    Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese30AR21 4
    Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese6AS15 4
    Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese7AQ150 4
    Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese7AR20 4
    Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese7AR23 4
    Levant_Canaanite_MBA:ERS1790729 4
    Levant_Canaanite_MBA:ERS1790730 4
    Levant_Canaanite_MBA:ERS1790731 4
    Levant_Canaanite_MBA:ERS1790732 4
    Levant_Canaanite_MBA:ERS1790733 4
    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH066 4
    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH067 4
    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068 14
    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH2-3 4
    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA2:ASH087 4
    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA2:ASH135 4
    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA2:ASH8 4
    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA:ASH29 4
    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA:ASH33 4
    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA:ASH34 4
    Levant_ISR_MLBA:I2062 4
    Levant_LBN_MA_NE:SI-38 4
    Levant_LBN_MA_NE:SI-42 4
    Levant_LBN_MA_NE:SI-44 4
    Levant_LBN_MA_NE:SI-45 4
    Levant_LBN_Roman:QED-12 4
    Levant_LBN_Roman:QED-2 4
    Levant_LBN_Roman:QED-4 4
    Levant_LBN_Roman:QED-7 4
    Palestinian:HGDP00675 4
    Palestinian:HGDP00676 4
    Palestinian:HGDP00677 4
    Palestinian:HGDP00679 4
    Palestinian:HGDP00683 4
    Palestinian:HGDP00688 4
    Palestinian:HGDP00689 4
    Palestinian:HGDP00690 4
    Samaritan:149532 4
    Samaritan:149533 4
    Samaritan:168723 4
    Samaritan:GSM537032 4
    Samaritan:GSM537033 4

    Syrian:Ber10AH252 4
    Syrian:Ber12AG184 4
    Syrian:Ber12AL16 4
    Syrian:Ber13R7 4
    Syrian:Ber16AG177 4
    Syrian:Ber16AG184 4
    Syrian:Ber17AG181 4
    Syrian:Ber17AG57 4
    Syrian:Ber1AH252 4
    Syrian:Ber1AM54 4
    Syrian:Ber3AG163 4
    Syrian:Ber4AG112 4
    Syrian:Ber5AG112 9
    Syrian:Ber5AL10 4
    Syrian:Ber5AL16 4
    Syrian:Ber5R35 4
    Syrian:Ber6AG118 4
    Syrian:Ber7R59 4
    Syrian:Ber9AG181 4
    Syrian_Jew:SyriaJewK6 4
    Syrian_Jew:SyriaJewSY06 4

    Turkish_Trabzon:Trabzon21534 4
    Armenian:armenia139 4
    Armenian:armenia279 4
    ME 4


    Here is the full list of the cluster assignment: https://justpaste.it/2miid

    While not every single member of every Western Jewish and Mizrachi group made it into the cluster, every subgroup had some member(s) in it. Also, not every single gentile Levantine sample made it into the cluster. You'll also note that no Europeans made it into the cluster.

    Needless to state, one doesn't have to believe that I found Judea, but they should. Now, should they not believe in my power, they can ascribe this cluster to mostly isolating a Levantine signal. The Greek Central Anatolian samples likely had the right combination of Aegean and West Asian, where the West Asian component came to shift the Aegean sufficiently south, so that it hits the Levant. While you may eventually arrive at a similar cluster assignment, this result is by no means (my favorite rapper is Big Pun) consistently reproducible. This is because k-means randomizes the initial mean assignments (centers of the clusters) and doesn't necessarily reach the global optimum(best solution). Therefore, different runs will often give different solutions (results). However, with Begin's famous speech in mind "Ashkenazim, Iraqim...", I had to share this. I do need to finish with the following: Even though I qualified the result, it shouldn't be written off as a fluke. Rather, we now know that some initial assignment yields a unified Jewish cluster. It's worth exploring whether such an initiation can be justified.
    Last edited by StillWater; Today at 02:19 PM.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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