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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #5791
    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    9:42 onwards is kind of weird to watch and amusing to me as I've never seen a Jew express that he is a Greek convert. I credit him on his curiosity about his own origins, but I disagree with his denial of there likely being a Judean origin. He suggests Moroccan Jews are in order of importance Greeks, Berber/Phoenicians and Iberians. I don't necessarily think he is dead wrong about everything either.

    Wow, i was almost sure that the woman at 4:01(the half Kurdish Jewish and half Tunisian Jewish) was Hadar Levi, so naturally i assumed that hadar was also half Mizrahi Jewish and half North African Jewish. After a quick search i found out that Hadar Levi is indeed half Iraqi jewish and half Moroccan Jewish.
    74be1_AF9T0444.JPG

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  3. #5792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Obviously we should probably await the re-uploading of the Italki samples to Gedmatch before diving into this subject once more,but this came to mind for a more recent relationship between Ashkenazim,Italkim,Romanioteís.

    First of all I just want to make it clear that I donít doubt that all three populations Owe the bulk of there ancestry to a shared older population of Roman Italkim and Greek Romanioteís more distant than being detectable through IBD.

    But regarding more recent relationship through IBD for all three communities this information came to mind:
    Attachment 31006
    So regarding Italkim and Romanioteís If Iím not mistaken Epirus as highlighted is the region where the Ioannina Romaniote Jewish community hails from.
    Itís been shown on this thread that Eastern & Western Ashkenazim are Genetically the same due to back migrations but still you would imagine Western Ashkenazim from a geographical proximity are probably more likely statistically over the centuries to have received periodic more recent Italian Jewish Admixture especially when populations were temporarily back in Italy.
    That being said if Ashkenazim of Poland,Lithuania have received Italian Jewish Admixture 14th-16th Centuries would this not coincide with the time frame that Ashkenazi communities were recovering from bottleneck and really started expanding again and ultimately experienced a large population growth whilst at the same time still practicing endogamy?
    Would not this preserve and spread this potential Italian Jewish Admixture?
    Resulting in an inaccurate MRCA on Gedmatch regarding the modern MRCA on One-to-One regarding shared segments between modern Italkim and Ashkenazim?
    Regarding the Romaniotes from Ioannina - as I explained in a previous post, there was very minimal settlement of non-Romaniotes in Ioannina specifically, but not necessarily in Epirus, where other Jewish communities existed, and both Sephardic and maybe even Italian Jews settled and in most cases outnumbered the local Romaniotes or simply "Sephardicized" them.

    In Ioannina itself, the opposite occured, and the few Ashkenazi, Sephardi or Italki Jews that did settle there, were so few that eventually they've been absorbed into the Romaniote community. However, even then, they had their own sub-costumes. For example, there were indeed few Romanite families in Ioannina that had the oral tradition of arriving there from Syracuse, Sicily, back in the 16th century. They their own festival. Unfortunately, they were exterminated in the Holocaust.

    I cannot dismiss ancient geneflow between Romaniotes in Southern Italy and mainland Greece though.

    As for the movement from Venice to Lithuania and Poland in the 14th-16th century, these are actually Ashkenazi Jews, which have arrived to Venice starting in the 14th century. Also, there were few Sephardic families which settled in Poland, especially in Galicia, which also arrived from Italy, however, they were very few and most likely had very little genetic impact on Ashkenazi Jews. Also, one has to remember that Sephardic Jews had an already pre-existing rich culture and their own rite, as well as something which Ashkenazi Jews didn't have at the time - surnames.
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  5. #5793
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    This isn’t a difference that shows up in PCA. The 770k genomes study using Ancestry’s database is a network analysis - and if you look at the distribution maps of the 2 main Ashkenazi mating ‘networks’ they’ve identified, they’re highly congruent with both the Northeastern vs. Polish/Ukrainian Yiddish dialect isogloss and the longest-standing boundary between Greater Poland and Greater Lithuania within the commonwealth. Like other networks/‘genetic communities’ detected on Ancestry, these are definitely no older than 400 or so years, and among other things, they suggest that Litvaks were uniquely isolated from the migrations to and from German lands that continued at a modest pace over the centuries (the paper + Ancestry link Western Ashkenazim to the Polish/Ukrainian group, to the exclusion of Litvaks). Not claiming fundamentally different origins or even any detectable difference in PCA. Jews who arrived in Greater Lithuania, whenever they did, stayed put and married amongst themselves for the last few hundred years. Good news is that if we ever wanted to really dig into this hypothesis, 90% of South African Jews are Litvaks ... good luck finding an American or Israeli with single-region origins.
    I'm 3/4s-100% Litvak, depending on the geographical border you go by. Is there any data, gedmatch kit #'s, or a PCA of Ashkenazim from different regions? My first matches on FTDNA seem to all be other Litvaks. AncestryDNA also assigned me only Litvak communities.
    Last edited by StillWater; 06-21-2019 at 06:11 AM.

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  7. #5794
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    I'm 3/4s-100% Litvak, depending on the geographical border you go by. Is there any data, gedmatch kit #'s, or a PCA of Ashkenazim from different regions? My first matches on FTDNA seem to all be other Litvaks. AncestryDNA also assigned me only Litvak communities.
    My Eurogenes K13

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 35.68
    2 West_Med 19.02
    3 North_Atlantic 14.95
    4 West_Asian 14.45
    5 Red_Sea 6.14
    6 Baltic 4.98
    7 East_Asian 2.39
    8 Sub-Saharan 1.16
    9 Oceanian 0.97
    10 Northeast_African 0.18
    11 Amerindian 0.08

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sephardic_Jewish 5.02
    2 Italian_Jewish 5.59
    3 South_Italian 5.84
    4 Ashkenazi 6.49
    5 Algerian_Jewish 6.63
    6 East_Sicilian 7.18
    7 Central_Greek 8.32
    8 Tunisian_Jewish 8.48
    9 Libyan_Jewish 9.8
    10 West_Sicilian 9.84
    11 Italian_Abruzzo 10.46
    12 Cyprian 11.23
    13 Greek_Thessaly 14.58
    14 Lebanese_Muslim 14.6
    15 Syrian 16.02
    16 Tuscan 16.57
    17 Samaritan 17.4
    18 Lebanese_Druze 17.79
    19 Lebanese_Christian 18.29
    20 Palestinian 18.33

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 64.9% West_Sicilian + 35.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.53
    2 88.7% Italian_Jewish + 11.3% Chechen @ 2.82
    3 86.8% Italian_Jewish + 13.2% Kumyk @ 2.85
    4 88.9% Italian_Jewish + 11.1% Lezgin @ 2.85
    5 89.2% Italian_Jewish + 10.8% Tabassaran @ 2.91
    6 88.3% Italian_Jewish + 11.7% Kabardin @ 2.93
    7 88.2% Italian_Jewish + 11.8% Balkar @ 2.97
    8 65.8% West_Sicilian + 34.2% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.98
    9 88.9% Italian_Jewish + 11.1% North_Ossetian @ 2.99
    10 88.4% Italian_Jewish + 11.6% Adygei @ 3.03
    11 89% Italian_Jewish + 11% Ossetian @ 3.18
    12 88.5% Italian_Jewish + 11.5% Nogay @ 3.31
    13 52.6% Tuscan + 47.4% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.38
    14 78.7% South_Italian + 21.3% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.42
    15 56% Lebanese_Christian + 44% North_Italian @ 3.42
    16 64.7% Lebanese_Christian + 35.3% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.44
    17 80.6% Italian_Jewish + 19.4% Turkish @ 3.45
    18 51.9% Tuscan + 48.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.51
    19 87.6% Italian_Jewish + 12.4% Turkmen @ 3.52
    20 67.8% Sephardic_Jewish + 32.2% Central_Greek @ 3.5

    My JTest

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 ASHKENAZI 27.51
    2 EAST_MED 21.8
    3 WEST_MED 11.02
    4 MIDDLE_EASTERN 10.66
    5 WEST_ASIAN 10.37
    6 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 7.26
    7 ATLANTIC 3.4
    8 SOUTH_BALTIC 3.38
    9 EAST_EURO 2.47
    10 EAST_ASIAN 1.41
    11 WEST_AFRICAN 0.73

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 AJ 4.73
    2 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 20.74
    3 GR 22.16
    4 Tuscan 25.91
    5 TR 27.58
    6 RO 28.98
    7 North_Italian 29.05
    8 IQ 29.75
    9 Assyrian 30.02
    10 Mandean 30.19
    11 Armenian 30.5
    12 Serbian 30.87
    13 Samaritan 31.2
    14 Kurdish 31.84
    15 IR 32.4
    16 PT 32.98
    17 Algerian 33.97
    18 Druze 34
    19 Moroccan 34.1
    20 ES 34.97

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 89.8% AJ + 10.2% Mandean @ 3.29
    2 89.8% AJ + 10.2% Assyrian @ 3.3
    3 90% AJ + 10% Armenian @ 3.33
    4 90.5% AJ + 9.5% IQ @ 3.57
    5 91% AJ + 9% Samaritan @ 3.59
    6 93.3% AJ + 6.7% GE @ 3.73
    7 91.7% AJ + 8.3% Kurdish @ 3.76
    8 90.5% AJ + 9.5% TR @ 3.76
    9 92.5% AJ + 7.5% Druze @ 3.86
    10 92.3% AJ + 7.7% IR @ 3.89
    11 96% AJ + 4% Bedouin @ 4.25
    12 95.4% AJ + 4.6% Lezgin @ 4.32
    13 92.5% AJ + 7.5% GR @ 4.39
    14 92.3% AJ + 7.7% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 4.42
    15 96.7% AJ + 3.3% Brahui @ 4.45
    16 96.8% AJ + 3.2% Balochi @ 4.46
    17 96.2% AJ + 3.8% Algerian @ 4.54
    18 99% AJ + 1% Chinese @ 4.6
    19 97.4% AJ + 2.6% Mozabite_Berber @ 4.61
    20 99% AJ + 1% Northern_Han_Chinese @ 4.61

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  9. #5795
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    No problem (it's 7 Romaniote kits, not 8):

    RomanioteJew1:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 12.19 Pct
    Baltic 2.34 Pct
    West_Med 20.70 Pct
    West_Asian 15.94 Pct
    East_Med 38.48 Pct
    Red_Sea 6.41 Pct
    South_Asian 1.78 Pct
    East_Asian -
    Siberian 0.52 Pct
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 1.03 Pct
    Sub-Saharan 0.61 Pct


    RomanioteJew2:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 13.98 Pct
    Baltic 2.34 Pct
    West_Med 21.26 Pct
    West_Asian 15.51 Pct
    East_Med 34.01 Pct
    Red_Sea 8.79 Pct
    South_Asian -
    East_Asian 1.46 Pct
    Siberian 0.66 Pct
    Amerindian 0.20 Pct
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 0.86 Pct
    Sub-Saharan 0.94 Pct


    RomanioteJew3:




     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 12.48 Pct
    Baltic 2.63 Pct
    West_Med 18.21 Pct
    West_Asian 14.17 Pct
    East_Med 41.10 Pct
    Red_Sea 8.98 Pct
    South_Asian -
    East_Asian 1.33 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 1.08 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -


    RomanioteJew4:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 9.19 Pct
    Baltic 4.66 Pct
    West_Med 21.32 Pct
    West_Asian 9.78 Pct
    East_Med 41.50 Pct
    Red_Sea 10.98 Pct
    South_Asian 0.10 Pct
    East_Asian 0.66 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian 0.91 Pct
    Northeast_African 0.92 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -



    RomanioteJew5:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 7.91 Pct
    Baltic 5.75 Pct
    West_Med 20.64 Pct
    West_Asian 15.45 Pct
    East_Med 38.00 Pct
    Red_Sea 8.47 Pct
    South_Asian -
    East_Asian 0.66 Pct
    Siberian 0.11 Pct
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian 0.62 Pct
    Northeast_African 2.39 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -



    RomanioteJew6:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 9.70 Pct
    Baltic 4.27 Pct
    West_Med 17.98 Pct
    West_Asian 13.52 Pct
    East_Med 39.72 Pct
    Red_Sea 10.68 Pct
    South_Asian 0.26 Pct
    East_Asian -
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 1.15 Pct
    Oceanian 0.93 Pct
    Northeast_African 1.80 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -


    RomanioteJew7:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 10.62 Pct
    Baltic 2.60 Pct
    West_Med 17.19 Pct
    West_Asian 18.42 Pct
    East_Med 39.02 Pct
    Red_Sea 7.76 Pct
    South_Asian 1.23 Pct
    East_Asian 0.47 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 0.26 Pct
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 2.42 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -
    Do you mind posted their mixed mode oracles? (single and two populations)

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  11. #5796
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    Here are StillWater's results from Ethnogene.

    MpG8cle.png

    Bizarrely, he didn't get any "Ashkenazi" and barely any Jewish at all. But his results are interesting and reflect a lot of what's been theorized here. What do you guys think?

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  13. #5797
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Regarding the Romaniotes from Ioannina - as I explained in a previous post, there was very minimal settlement of non-Romaniotes in Ioannina specifically, but not necessarily in Epirus, where other Jewish communities existed, and both Sephardic and maybe even Italian Jews settled and in most cases outnumbered the local Romaniotes or simply "Sephardicized" them.

    In Ioannina itself, the opposite occured, and the few Ashkenazi, Sephardi or Italki Jews that did settle there, were so few that eventually they've been absorbed into the Romaniote community. However, even then, they had their own sub-costumes. For example, there were indeed few Romanite families in Ioannina that had the oral tradition of arriving there from Syracuse, Sicily, back in the 16th century. They their own festival. Unfortunately, they were exterminated in the Holocaust.

    I cannot dismiss ancient geneflow between Romaniotes in Southern Italy and mainland Greece though.

    As for the movement from Venice to Lithuania and Poland in the 14th-16th century, these are actually Ashkenazi Jews, which have arrived to Venice starting in the 14th century. Also, there were few Sephardic families which settled in Poland, especially in Galicia, which also arrived from Italy, however, they were very few and most likely had very little genetic impact on Ashkenazi Jews. Also, one has to remember that Sephardic Jews had an already pre-existing rich culture and their own rite, as well as something which Ashkenazi Jews didn't have at the time - surnames.
    Yes, Venice probably had a significant western Ashkenazi component. Kevin Brook has written on Sephardim in Poland and Lithuania. I think that most of them adopted Ashkenazi rites after a while.

  14. #5798
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    Nationality
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Regarding the Romaniotes from Ioannina - as I explained in a previous post, there was very minimal settlement of non-Romaniotes in Ioannina specifically, but not necessarily in Epirus, where other Jewish communities existed, and both Sephardic and maybe even Italian Jews settled and in most cases outnumbered the local Romaniotes or simply "Sephardicized" them.

    In Ioannina itself, the opposite occured, and the few Ashkenazi, Sephardi or Italki Jews that did settle there, were so few that eventually they've been absorbed into the Romaniote community. However, even then, they had their own sub-costumes. For example, there were indeed few Romanite families in Ioannina that had the oral tradition of arriving there from Syracuse, Sicily, back in the 16th century. They their own festival. Unfortunately, they were exterminated in the Holocaust.

    I cannot dismiss ancient geneflow between Romaniotes in Southern Italy and mainland Greece though.

    As for the movement from Venice to Lithuania and Poland in the 14th-16th century, these are actually Ashkenazi Jews, which have arrived to Venice starting in the 14th century. Also, there were few Sephardic families which settled in Poland, especially in Galicia, which also arrived from Italy, however, they were very few and most likely had very little genetic impact on Ashkenazi Jews. Also, one has to remember that Sephardic Jews had an already pre-existing rich culture and their own rite, as well as something which Ashkenazi Jews didn't have at the time - surnames.
    Yes, Venice probably had a significant western Ashkenazi component. Kevin Brook has written on Sephardim in Poland and Lithuania. I think that most of them adopted Ashkenazi rites after a while. It appears that some came from the Med and others via Western Europe (I have both)
    Last edited by josh w.; 06-21-2019 at 04:05 PM.

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  16. #5799
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    My Eurogenes K13

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 35.68
    2 West_Med 19.02
    3 North_Atlantic 14.95
    4 West_Asian 14.45
    5 Red_Sea 6.14
    6 Baltic 4.98
    7 East_Asian 2.39
    8 Sub-Saharan 1.16
    9 Oceanian 0.97
    10 Northeast_African 0.18
    11 Amerindian 0.08

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sephardic_Jewish 5.02
    2 Italian_Jewish 5.59
    3 South_Italian 5.84
    4 Ashkenazi 6.49
    5 Algerian_Jewish 6.63
    6 East_Sicilian 7.18
    7 Central_Greek 8.32
    8 Tunisian_Jewish 8.48
    9 Libyan_Jewish 9.8
    10 West_Sicilian 9.84
    11 Italian_Abruzzo 10.46
    12 Cyprian 11.23
    13 Greek_Thessaly 14.58
    14 Lebanese_Muslim 14.6
    15 Syrian 16.02
    16 Tuscan 16.57
    17 Samaritan 17.4
    18 Lebanese_Druze 17.79
    19 Lebanese_Christian 18.29
    20 Palestinian 18.33

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 64.9% West_Sicilian + 35.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.53
    2 88.7% Italian_Jewish + 11.3% Chechen @ 2.82
    3 86.8% Italian_Jewish + 13.2% Kumyk @ 2.85
    4 88.9% Italian_Jewish + 11.1% Lezgin @ 2.85
    5 89.2% Italian_Jewish + 10.8% Tabassaran @ 2.91
    6 88.3% Italian_Jewish + 11.7% Kabardin @ 2.93
    7 88.2% Italian_Jewish + 11.8% Balkar @ 2.97
    8 65.8% West_Sicilian + 34.2% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.98
    9 88.9% Italian_Jewish + 11.1% North_Ossetian @ 2.99
    10 88.4% Italian_Jewish + 11.6% Adygei @ 3.03
    11 89% Italian_Jewish + 11% Ossetian @ 3.18
    12 88.5% Italian_Jewish + 11.5% Nogay @ 3.31
    13 52.6% Tuscan + 47.4% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.38
    14 78.7% South_Italian + 21.3% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.42
    15 56% Lebanese_Christian + 44% North_Italian @ 3.42
    16 64.7% Lebanese_Christian + 35.3% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.44
    17 80.6% Italian_Jewish + 19.4% Turkish @ 3.45
    18 51.9% Tuscan + 48.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.51
    19 87.6% Italian_Jewish + 12.4% Turkmen @ 3.52
    20 67.8% Sephardic_Jewish + 32.2% Central_Greek @ 3.5

    My JTest

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 ASHKENAZI 27.51
    2 EAST_MED 21.8
    3 WEST_MED 11.02
    4 MIDDLE_EASTERN 10.66
    5 WEST_ASIAN 10.37
    6 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 7.26
    7 ATLANTIC 3.4
    8 SOUTH_BALTIC 3.38
    9 EAST_EURO 2.47
    10 EAST_ASIAN 1.41
    11 WEST_AFRICAN 0.73

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 AJ 4.73
    2 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 20.74
    3 GR 22.16
    4 Tuscan 25.91
    5 TR 27.58
    6 RO 28.98
    7 North_Italian 29.05
    8 IQ 29.75
    9 Assyrian 30.02
    10 Mandean 30.19
    11 Armenian 30.5
    12 Serbian 30.87
    13 Samaritan 31.2
    14 Kurdish 31.84
    15 IR 32.4
    16 PT 32.98
    17 Algerian 33.97
    18 Druze 34
    19 Moroccan 34.1
    20 ES 34.97

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 89.8% AJ + 10.2% Mandean @ 3.29
    2 89.8% AJ + 10.2% Assyrian @ 3.3
    3 90% AJ + 10% Armenian @ 3.33
    4 90.5% AJ + 9.5% IQ @ 3.57
    5 91% AJ + 9% Samaritan @ 3.59
    6 93.3% AJ + 6.7% GE @ 3.73
    7 91.7% AJ + 8.3% Kurdish @ 3.76
    8 90.5% AJ + 9.5% TR @ 3.76
    9 92.5% AJ + 7.5% Druze @ 3.86
    10 92.3% AJ + 7.7% IR @ 3.89
    11 96% AJ + 4% Bedouin @ 4.25
    12 95.4% AJ + 4.6% Lezgin @ 4.32
    13 92.5% AJ + 7.5% GR @ 4.39
    14 92.3% AJ + 7.7% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 4.42
    15 96.7% AJ + 3.3% Brahui @ 4.45
    16 96.8% AJ + 3.2% Balochi @ 4.46
    17 96.2% AJ + 3.8% Algerian @ 4.54
    18 99% AJ + 1% Chinese @ 4.6
    19 97.4% AJ + 2.6% Mozabite_Berber @ 4.61
    20 99% AJ + 1% Northern_Han_Chinese @ 4.61
    Your Eurogenes K13 similarity list is very similar to mine, with South Italian, Sephardic, and Italian Jewish preceding Ashkenazióand Iím somewhere between an 1/8 and 1/4 Litvak (Mir and Brest: definitely Litvak, Warsaw with roots near Bialystok, arguably Litvak, and Miedzyrzec, not really, but NE/North Central Poland is probably part of the Litvak genetic network), depending on the definition. Ted Kandell tells me thereís a Balto-Slavic shift among Litvaks, but I havenít seen the evidence. Kevin Brook says tentatively that Galitzianers show more Sephardic connections.
    Last edited by hartaisarlag; 06-21-2019 at 05:15 PM.

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     Agamemnon (06-21-2019),  Andrewid (06-21-2019),  Claudio (06-21-2019),  Power77 (06-26-2019),  StillWater (06-21-2019),  Targum (06-23-2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Here are StillWater's results from Ethnogene.

    MpG8cle.png

    Bizarrely, he didn't get any "Ashkenazi" and barely any Jewish at all. But his results are interesting and reflect a lot of what's been theorized here. What do you guys think?

    Thatís really interesting Jonah.
    If we ignore the Western European percentages and just take the Middle Eastern and Southern European percentages at face value in laymanís terms it gives the appearance of a Levantine population mixing with southern Italians or similarly but alternatively the premise of this thread.
    Last edited by Claudio; 06-21-2019 at 07:02 PM.

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