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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Lebanese Druze similarity map:

    Attachment 23961

    Attachment 23962

    Even though it clusters strongly in the Levant, it also has pretty high affinity with Sicilians, Anatolians and Aegeans - much more than Samaritans or Palestinian Christians (but lower than Christian Lebanese).

    Interestingly there is a very sharp drop-off of similarity between Lazio and Campania, with the Campanians sharing equal similarity to the Lebanese Druze as do Sicilians, Calabrese, and Aegean islanders, but the Lazio sample much less. I did not know the genetic boundary was so abrupt.

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    Reading up on Samaritans a bit, I saw that ancient Assyrian sources claim that Samaritans are partly-descended from pre-Islamic Arabians. I wonder if this would account for any of their elevated SW Asian ancestry compared to almost all other Jewish populations except Yemenite Jews.

    However, the following account of the Assyrian kings, which was among the archaeological discoveries in Babylon, differs from the Samaritan account, and confirms much of the Jewish Biblical account but may differ in regard to the ethnicity of the foreigners settled in Samaria by the Assyrians. At one point, it is simply said that they were from Arabia, while at another, that they were brought from a number of countries conquered by Sargon II:

    the Samarians who had agreed with a hostile king ...I fought with them and decisively defeated them...carried off as spoil. 50 chariots for my royal force...the rest of them I settled in the midst of Assyria. ...The Tamudi, Ibadidi, Marsimani and Hayappa, who live in distant Arabia, in the desert, who knew neither overseer nor commander, who never brought tribute to any king--with the help of Ashshur my lord, I defeated them. I deported the rest of them. I settled them in Samaria/Samerina.
    — Sargon II Inscriptions, COS[not specific enough to verify] 2.118A, p. 293
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samari...ent_of_Samaria
    Last edited by jonahst; 06-13-2018 at 11:54 PM.

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    South Italian (Cretone, Calabria) similarity map:

    Italian_Calabria_Crotone_A172427.JPG

    Clusters very similar to Ashkenazi Jews:

    Attachment 23941

    But, AJs average cluster closer with mainland Greeks and Cypriots.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 06-14-2018 at 07:23 AM.

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    I want to make the following case.

    Here are the 4 MDLP-World-22 Oracles for the Sicilians and the Calabrian Italian (S. Italian):

    Calabrian:
    Italy_Calabria_Crotone.JPG

    E. Sicilian - Catania:
    Sicily_Catania.JPG

    E. Sicilian - Messina:
    Sicily_Messina.JPG

    W. Sicilian - Trapani:
    Sicily_Trapani.JPG

    Look at whom they cluster with first.

    Obviously, they cluster first and foremost with Greeks, but they also cluster with some Western Jews - namely, Ashkenazi, Italian and Sephardic Jews (and Romanians, which are mainly Ashkenazi but also have Sephardic community).

    They barely cluster with other Western Jews.

    And this is precisely my case.

    When I look at the Cypriots oracles, which can be found in this post:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post414381

    I've re-post one of them here to save you the time to go to that link:
    cyprian3.JPG

    All of them cluster first with a Western Jew - Syrian Jews, then other Levantines and Cretans, but then - a whole bunch of Western Jews - Tunisians, Moroccans, with shorter distance than Italians, and yes - also with other more nonthern-mixed Jews like AJs and SJs (but with greater distance than Italians).

    For me, this shows a very, very strong case for my theory.

    Because, if indeed the South European admixture of Western Jews would have been Italian, you'd expect that all Sicilians and S. Italians would cluster with those other Western Jews as well.

    My point is, that being that Sicilians and S. Italians are highly admixed with pre-Slavic Greeks (which today the closest Greeks would be Island Greeks), and also mixed to a substantial degree (+20%) with Levantines and Berbers, and they also have admixture with Norman-French Northern Europeans - they seem to cluster with AJs, SJs and Italkim - which have a very similar admixture.

    Cypriots, are Greeks with high Levantine admixture - which is basically the same "formula" that the base, original Western Jews, as a result of prostelyzing Greco-Romans in the Eastern Mediterrranean and Hellenistic Judaism in the Levant itself.

    What is your take, after almost 40 pages?

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    Now, to clarify my point exactly, here are the orcales of 5 non-Cypriot, non-Cretan Greeks (mostly Islanders, but one mainland).

    Look at the mixed mode to see how much Slavic-mixed are they.

    Now remember, according to Lazirdis at el, 2017, all modern Greek populations, including Islanders, but excluding Cypriots, are mixed to some degree with Slavs. The more northern you go on the mainland, and the closer you go to the mainland, the higher the Slavic admixture is, with of course some exceptions like islands which have been incredibly isolated. You can look at the graph in this post:
    https://anthrogenica.com/attachment....7&d=1528444129



    Also, remember that Greek Islanders like in Dodecanese, Crete etc., are also admixed with Levantines, as shown in this post:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post411436


    Again, remember that there was no mass migration or colonization of Italian people in Greece - just the other way around. So the affinity and similarity between Greeks and Italians is mostly the result of Italians, especially S. Italians and Sicilians, being highly mixed with Greeks.

    What you'll see in those oracles, is that basically the Slavic admixture in modern Greeks, makes them cluster with Western Jews that are "northern"-shifted, like AJs, SJs and Italkim. Keep in mind, that if the Greek component was not the major one among Western Jews, as I've shown in Syrian Jews, Sephardic Jews and other Western Jews using Global25 (all except Libyan Jews, basically, which as you see never show up in those Oracles), then northern-shifted Western Jews would not cluster so closely to mainland Greeks as well, but would cluster only with Greeks that are highly admixed with Levantines. As the case for Euboea, where Greeks are highly admixed with Slavs (as can be seen in mixed mode), they also cluster highly with Ashkenazi Jews, precisely because the Greek component is the biggest one in Western Jews.

    I came up with the following division - ~30% Levantine, ~50% Greek, ~20% North European + another component (in the case of AJs - Slavic, in the case of SJs - Berber).

    Here are the Oracles - I've organized them from Southern most, and further from the mainland (which coincide with the most Levantine-mixed as well), to northern-most, closer to the mainland. Look at the mixed mode population sharing of each to see how Slavic admixture increases:

    Dodecanese - Karpathos:
    Karpathos_Dodecanese_merged.jpg

    Dodecanese - Kalymnos:
    Kalymnos_Dodecanese_merged.jpg

    Aegean - Chios:
    Chios_merged.jpg

    Cyclades - Andros:
    Andros_merged.jpg

    Adjacent to mainland Greece - Eubea:
    Eubea_merged.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I want to make the following case.

    Here are the 4 MDLP-World-22 Oracles for the Sicilians and the Calabrian Italian (S. Italian):

    Calabrian:
    Italy_Calabria_Crotone.JPG

    E. Sicilian - Catania:
    Sicily_Catania.JPG

    E. Sicilian - Messina:
    Sicily_Messina.JPG

    W. Sicilian - Trapani:
    Sicily_Trapani.JPG

    Look at whom they cluster with first.

    Obviously, they cluster first and foremost with Greeks, but they also cluster with some Western Jews - namely, Ashkenazi, Italian and Sephardic Jews (and Romanians, which are mainly Ashkenazi but also have Sephardic community).
    One thing I notice is the more exotic Sicilians and Aegean islanders score Syrian Jew in their top 20, though toward the bottom of the list -- this is the Levantine input.

    What strikes me above all else is that the Messina/Catania results are scoring Cretan before Sicilian. Basically, many Sicilians are genetically identical to Cretans, which supports your theory that the two populations share a nearly identical mixture of Greek and Levantine, with whichever northern inputs they have. Similarly, I have some Cretans who score Sicilian first. I think the genetic range/variation on the two islands is more or less the same, with the exception of Trapani.

    The Trapani result seems closest to Peloponnesians, for whichever reason.

    These are some Palermo/Caltanissetta/Messina. I notice you don't have any Palermitan samples but this might help as well. The Palermitans are pretty much the same as Messina/Catania, notice Crete is right at the top of the list for many. Though for Palermo and Caltanissetta, where there is less Greek ancestry, the similarity to Crete might be spurred instead by their mutual Levantine input.

    I am getting something different from you, though -- I have a number of these who do get Romanian Jews first, before Crete even.

    Carini, Palermo province: this one is my cousin
     



    Cerda, Palermo province:
     



    Termini Imerese, Palermo province:
     



    Polizzi Generosa, Palermo province: this one is very close to Romanian Jews
     



    Valledolmo, Palermo province: also close to Romanian Jews
     



    Sommatino, Caltanissetta province:
     



    Serradifalco, Caltanissetta province:
     



    Half Enna, half Caltanissetta:
     



    Alcara Li Fusi, Messina province:
     




    Alcara Li Fusi, Messina province:
     





    When I look at the Cypriots oracles, which can be found in this post:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post414381

    I've re-post one of them here to save you the time to go to that link:
    cyprian3.JPG

    All of them cluster first with a Western Jew - Syrian Jews, then other Levantines and Cretans, but then - a whole bunch of Western Jews - Tunisians, Moroccans, with shorter distance than Italians, and yes - also with other more nonthern-mixed Jews like AJs and SJs (but with greater distance than Italians).
    Cypriots seem, in general, to be somewhere intermediate between Sicilian/Aegean islander and Levantine, which would support a very ancient, pre-Slavic Greek substrate admixed with significant Levantine, with that Levantine being higher than in Sicilians/Aegean islanders, with less North European than both.

    The question I'd ask you is, how much Slavic input would you say made it to different Aegean islands?


    Because, if indeed the South European admixture of Western Jews would have been Italian, you'd expect that all Sicilians and S. Italians would cluster with those other Western Jews as well.

    My point is, that being that Sicilians and S. Italians are highly admixed with pre-Slavic Greeks (which today the closest Greeks would be Island Greeks), and also mixed to a substantial degree (+20%) with Levantines and Berbers, and they also have admixture with Norman-French Northern Europeans - they seem to cluster with AJs, SJs and Italkim - which have a very similar admixture.
    You are contradicting past statements. If the South European admixture of Western Jews was Italian, it would have little impact on whether Sicilians/South Italians cluster with them, because you determined that the vast majority of Sicilian DNA is attributable to pre-Slavic Greeks and to Levantines and the majority of Sicilian/south Italian DNA did not in fact come south down the Italian peninsula.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Here are the Oracles - I've organized them from Southern most, and further from the mainland (which coincide with the most Levantine-mixed as well), to northern-most, closer to the mainland. Look at the mixed mode population sharing of each to see how Slavic admixture increases:

    Dodecanese - Karpathos:
    Karpathos_Dodecanese_merged.jpg

    Dodecanese - Kalymnos:
    Kalymnos_Dodecanese_merged.jpg

    Aegean - Chios:
    Chios_merged.jpg

    Cyclades - Andros:
    Andros_merged.jpg

    Adjacent to mainland Greece - Eubea:
    Eubea_merged.jpg

    Kalymnos is the closest to a typical Sicilian. Interestingly the Cyclades result shows that some Slavic has been carried over from the mainland, and Euboea clearly was Slavicized -- this person shifts northeast even of Central Italy.

    Here are two Calabrese from Reggio Calabria, which I think come out similar to your Karpathian result. Both southern Calabria and Karpathos are a bit outlying even within the overall South Italy/Aegean islands cluster.

    #1:
     




    #2:
     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I am getting something different from you, though -- I have a number of these who do get Romanian Jews first, before Crete even.
    Yes, but look which Greek comes right after Romanian Jew - East Greek. Mainland East Greeks = Thessaloniki area. This means perhaps that this person perhaps has some late Byzantine with some Slavic admixture, which would draw him to Romanian Jews.


    Cypriots seem, in general, to be somewhere intermediate between Sicilian/Aegean islander and Levantine, which would support a very ancient, pre-Slavic Greek substrate admixed with significant Levantine, with that Levantine being higher than in Sicilians/Aegean islanders, with less North European than both.
    Syrian Jews without admixture, the only Western Jews (aside from non-mixed Romanoites) that do not have any North European or North African admixture, cluster as Cypriots. GEDmatch even can't tell the difference between Syrian Jews and Cypriots - yet you never see a mistake like that between Cypriot and a Lebanese, even though Lebanese are also close. That means that Syrian Jews are mostly Greek with very high Levantine admixture.

    The question I'd ask you is, how much Slavic input would you say made it to different Aegean islands?
    Difficult to say.




    You are contradicting past statements. If the South European admixture of Western Jews was Italian, it would have little impact on whether Sicilians/South Italians cluster with them, because you determined that the vast majority of Sicilian DNA is attributable to pre-Slavic Greeks and to Levantines and the majority of Sicilian/south Italian DNA did not in fact come south down the Italian peninsula.
    I am not contradicting myself. The accepted theory so far, is that the South European admixture among Western Jews is Italian, mainly Tuscan, not Sicilian or South Italian, and that Sicilians and South Italians cluster the closest with Western Jews rather than the "more" Italian, less Levantine Tuscans, is because Jews are half Levantines, half Italians, very similar to the claimed admixture of S. Italians and Sicilians. That is, those theories recognize that there's a Levantine admixture in Sicilians and S. Italians, but to some extent neglect the Greek admixture. I claim something completely else - the reason why Western Jews cluster with Sicilians and S. Italians, is because basically those two Italian populations are so highly admixed with pre-Slavic Greeks, that the proportions of Greek vs. Levantine vs. Northern European (Norman etc.) admixture is very similar to Western Jews, but Western Jews are basically Levantines who have been admixing with Greek populations so much, first in the Levant itself during Hellenistic times, later on in the diaspora in Roman-era Hellenistic East Mediterranean, that their main component is Greek, and only then Levantine - very similar to Cypriots. And this is why Cypriots are extremely good base to model Western Jews on - as I've shown over and over both in Eurogenes K7-BR and Global25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Syrian Jews without admixture, the only Western Jews (aside from non-mixed Romanoites) that do not have any North European or North African admixture, cluster as Cypriots. GEDmatch even can't tell the difference between Syrian Jews and Cypriots - yet you never see a mistake like that between Cypriot and a Lebanese, even though Lebanese are also close. That means that Syrian Jews are mostly Greek with very high Levantine admixture.
    We don't know 100% how a Romaniote free of Sephardic (pretty ambiguous term as it is . . .) admixture would score. Your right, logically there shouldn't be any Berber admixture in them, but then again you would say more or less the same for Italqim prior to the arrival of Algerian Jews more or less. Except if you model Italian Jews in the global 25 with Mozabites, you will find they frequently tend to score 8-10% or so. Just 2% less then Bulgarian/Turkish Jews. What do you make of that? What I also find strange is assuming Ashkenazi Jews were 85% more or less genetically akin to Italqim/Sephardic Jews, they somehow score about half using a Mozabite population.

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    Italy Sicily Greece Canada
    Eurogenes V2 K15

    Italian from Reggio Calabria:

     


    Sicilian

     


    Greek (Half Olympia Half Kalymnos)

     


    Greek from Rhodes

     

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