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Thread: Sephardic jews with Gedmatch

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    Sephardic jews with Gedmatch

    Hello,

    Is there any good way to track Sephardic jews ancestry with Gedmatch?

    Regads

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    Here is the Gedmatch K13 averages, not sure if there is a running list of kit #'s though

    Sephardic_Jewish

    East_Med 36.91
    West_Med 19.83
    North_Atlantic 15.63
    West_Asian 13.04
    Red_Sea 8.90
    Baltic 1.81
    NE African 1.12
    Siberian 0.78
    Sub-Saharan 0.65
    South_Asian 0.61
    East_Asian 0.38
    Oceanian 0.33
    Amerindian 0.00
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminą (RC) Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    Here is the Gedmatch K13 averages, not sure if there is a running list of kit #'s though

    Sephardic_Jewish

    East_Med 36.91
    West_Med 19.83
    North_Atlantic 15.63
    West_Asian 13.04
    Red_Sea 8.90
    Baltic 1.81
    NE African 1.12
    Siberian 0.78
    Sub-Saharan 0.65
    South_Asian 0.61
    East_Asian 0.38
    Oceanian 0.33
    Amerindian 0.00
    What/who is this based on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    What/who is this based on?
    The Eurogenes K13 spreadsheet
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminą (RC) Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    The Eurogenes K13 spreadsheet
    Fair enough. Do we have any idea what kind of samples were included in this, though? North African? Eastern Sephardic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Fair enough. Do we have any idea what kind of samples were included in this, though? North African? Eastern Sephardic?
    Probably Eastern Sephardic—considering Eurogenes K13 also includes averages for Algerian Jews (Tunisian and Libyan Jews too, I think).

    Much has recently been made about within-country variation among North African Sephardim. I'd love to see more details on *those* samples.

    ————

    Another major issue, setting aside the North African Sephardic question: it's become clear recently that Eastern Sephardim don't have much Iberian ancestry, but have considerable Italian or Greco-Roman ancestry. The two possible explanations for this are that Jews in Spain were transplants from Italy or the Eastern Roman Empire who didn't mix much once they arrived in Iberia, or that Eastern Sephardim are considerably, if not primarily, descended from pre-Sephardic, Greek-speaking Jews.

    Meanwhile, Iberian ancestry in North African Jews seems too lumpy to be helpful as a reference for this question. I hope I'm wrong about that, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Fair enough. Do we have any idea what kind of samples were included in this, though? North African? Eastern Sephardic?
    I don't unfortunately. I swear I have seen a list of Seph. gedmatch kit #'s floating around though. Maybe not here but at another anthro site. I'll look and see...
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminą (RC) Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Probably Eastern Sephardic—considering Eurogenes K13 also includes averages for Algerian Jews (Tunisian and Libyan Jews too, I think).

    Much has recently been made about within-country variation among North African Sephardim. I'd love to see more details on *those* samples.

    ————

    Another major issue, setting aside the North African Sephardic question: it's become clear recently that Eastern Sephardim don't have much Iberian ancestry, but have considerable Italian or Greco-Roman ancestry. The two possible explanations for this are that Jews in Spain were transplants from Italy or the Eastern Roman Empire who didn't mix much once they arrived in Iberia, or that Eastern Sephardim are considerably, if not primarily, descended from pre-Sephardic, Greek-speaking Jews.

    Meanwhile, Iberian ancestry in North African Jews seems too lumpy to be helpful as a reference for this question. I hope I'm wrong about that, though.
    I don't see anything more specific than "Sephardic Jews" on that spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...QG0/edit#gid=0).

    I've read about the supposed differences in levels of Iberian ancestry among Eastern and North African Sephardim, and am really not sure what to make of that. Even though the numbers of Iberian Jewish exiles to the Ottoman Empire are notoriously unreliable, I think its safe to say they numbered at least in the tens of thousands, if not quite the couple hundred thousand that are some affirm. Perhaps there was a higher degree of mixing with Italkim and Romaniotes, and eventually some Ashkenazim, but I would still think that the bulk of Eastern Sephardic ancestry would ultimately come from Iberian exiles, some of whom fled first to Italy or North Africa. The only thing I can think of that might make North African Sephardim "more Iberian" might be a somewhat higher degree of incorporation of later waves of bnei anusim, some of whom might have been of mixed heritage. In that case, the question would be how genetically similar any of the pre-1492 Iberian Jews were to the surrounding non-Jewish population, and how much of a difference intermarriage among the anusim may have made in terms of the admixture of later refugees.

    Anecdotally, for what it's worth, I'm 1/8 Turkish Sephardic on paper, though I get around 18-20% Sephardic-like (Mediterranean basin) admixture percentages from the tests I've done. MyHeritage gives me 9.9% North African (somewhat of a fluke, I think), 5.3% Iberian and 2.2% Italian. FamilyTree gives me 11% Sephardic (which I believe is based on Eastern pops), 4% Italian/Greek, 3% North African and 2% West Middle East (though that could also come from my Ashkenazi). When I look at my Eastern Sephardic DNA cousins on MyHeritage, it's true that most of them have quite low Iberian scores though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    I don't see anything more specific than "Sephardic Jews" on that spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...QG0/edit#gid=0).
    Maybe I have no good reason for assuming that "Sephardic Jews" in that sample = Greek, Turkish, and Bulgarian, but that was the impression I was carrying—perhaps because of just how similar they are to Ashkenazim.

    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    The only thing I can think of that might make North African Sephardim "more Iberian" might be a somewhat higher degree of incorporation of later waves of bnei anusim, some of whom might have been of mixed heritage. In that case, the question would be how genetically similar any of the pre-1492 Iberian Jews were to the surrounding non-Jewish population, and how much of a difference intermarriage among the anusim may have made in terms of the admixture of later refugees.
    That's what the people at The Apricity seem to favor. And until recently, I had no idea just how late some of the outflows (and returns, by Jews who tasted exile and decided they'd rather convert and have a shot at integrating back into their old communities) were. After a few generations as anusim, the odds of picking up some Spanish or Portuguese ancestry would be high.

    The fact that 23andMe is returning specific Spanish (and Italian!) regional matches for North African Jews, meanwhile, could be interpreted to suggest gene flow in either direction, from Jews to non-Jews or vice versa.
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