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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #10001
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    I agree, but I don't understand why Eastern Ashkenazim prefer Western Russian as the source of Eastern European admixture in both Gedmatch and G25. When I run the following model:
     

    Code:
    Russian_Kostroma,0.1282407,0.0873355,0.0814582,0.0680453,0.027441,0.0215208,0.0119073,0.0129993,-0.0033747,-0.0299475,0.0042222,-0.0074932,0.017963,0.0123402,-0.0091383,-0.0039112,0.0009127,-0.0016258,-0.0017597,0.0004792,6.23e-05,-0.0014427,0.0035947,-0.0006025,-0.0020557
    Russian_Kursk,0.131181,0.1155162,0.069673,0.065892,0.0326215,0.0221718,0.0107517,0.0129802,-0.0040395,-0.0257865,-0.0018675,-0.0072685,0.0188058,0.0195768,-0.013097,0.0020885,0.0036507,0.0008865,0.0025453,0.0006252,-0.0037432,-0.0080992,0.005854,-0.0047598,-0.001377
    Russian_Orel,0.1312217,0.1186719,0.0717069,0.0624774,0.0331489,0.0222316,0.0085273,0.0119994,-0.0049086,-0.0253049,-0.0012991,-0.0071936,0.0147176,0.0233369,-0.0120401,-0.0008146,0.0023841,-0.0019726,0.0030347,0.001483,-0.0045277,-0.0055643,0.0058277,-0.0053536,-0.001112
    Russian_Pinega,0.1248257,0.0636397,0.0945317,0.07752,0.02185,0.023241,0.0118287,0.0146147,0.0013637,-0.0311623,0.007091,-0.0119397,0.0239343,0.011331,-0.0102243,-0.0037567,-0.0039987,-0.0022803,-0.0051957,-0.001042,0.0076117,-0.0001233,0.0019717,-0.0024097,0.0020753
    Russian_Smolensk,0.1344536,0.12326,0.0721244,0.0663361,0.0391226,0.0249958,0.0116038,0.0126919,0.0001025,-0.0253992,-0.003532,-0.0088234,0.0168916,0.0290039,-0.0098056,-0.0078226,-0.0033411,-0.0008392,4.72e-05,0.0017821,0.0001091,-0.004235,0.0059004,-0.0064014,0.0003291
    Russian_Tver,0.1300428,0.1063768,0.0751415,0.0692835,0.035237,0.026146,0.0105165,0.013211,-0.0048572,-0.0275178,-0.000284,-0.0093668,0.016241,0.0226392,-0.0083128,0.002917,0.006193,-0.001457,-0.0008798,0.001563,-0.0029632,-0.0055332,0.0100753,-0.0018678,-0.0031135
    Russian_Voronez,0.1308965,0.1216098,0.0735385,0.0608855,0.0360838,0.0225205,0.009694,0.011711,-0.0024542,-0.0240098,0.0008118,-0.0079052,0.017282,0.024359,-0.0136402,-0.0037125,0.0012385,0.0011085,0.0028285,0.0034392,-0.0023708,-0.0032148,0.0023725,-0.0050305,-0.0019758
    RhinelandOG:Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_4,0.101303,0.148267,-0.019233,-0.049419,0.008925,-0.020359,0,0,0.014112,0.021686,0.003897,-0.002098,0.003419,-0.005092,-0.004886,0.000796,-0.003129,0.004941,0.002891,0.003377,0.002246,0.00136,-0.005916,-0.001205,-0.000718
    RhinelandOG:Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_6,0.091058,0.142174,-0.015085,-0.050065,0.010156,-0.020638,-0.00188,-0.003923,0.00634,0.021504,0.002273,0.001349,0.000446,-0.006331,-0.005972,0.010209,0.016689,-0.005701,-0.006034,0.003252,-0.003868,-0.005441,0.002465,0.003133,0.00491
    Polish:,0.1318405,0.1292694,0.0698685,0.0577382,0.0406754,0.0217127,0.0086781,0.0108626,-0.0009329,-0.0185524,-0.0043488,-0.0064187,0.013093,0.0186295,-0.0070244,-0.0005595,0.0015455,-7.41e-05,0.0026948,0.0012872,-0.0031286,-0.0031185,0.0056063,-0.0033328,-8.76e-05
    Dai,0.0156507,-0.438709,-0.046763,-0.0609662,0.1201762,0.0622622,0.00047,-0.0073845,-0.0189698,-0.013121,0.0109208,0.0020232,-0.000446,-0.006193,0.0012895,0.0045742,0.0061282,-0.0009502,-0.0043368,-0.011662,0.0121972,0.0090268,0.0149438,0.002892,0.007095
    Belarusian,0.1322625,0.1236239,0.0750219,0.0695957,0.0402331,0.0265691,0.0107321,0.0133226,-0.0002727,-0.0246017,-0.0026957,-0.0092119,0.0193259,0.0272309,-0.0112647,-0.0038009,-0.0009647,0.0003717,0.0041397,-0.0010504,-0.0042342,-0.0046081,0.0077235,-0.0068601,0.0006946
    Lithuanian_PA,0.1337421,0.1241485,0.0796195,0.074613,0.0421616,0.0291092,0.0087244,0.0134128,-0.0037324,-0.0263102,-0.0035118,-0.0091044,0.0186756,0.0266472,-0.0118755,0.0034972,0.0042865,0.0010292,0.0039282,0.0012351,-0.0060519,-0.0032921,0.0093979,-0.006552,-0.0002845
    Lithuanian_PZ,0.1356773,0.1255195,0.0883971,0.0871131,0.044562,0.035447,0.0106459,0.0156685,-0.0030065,-0.0347524,-0.0067879,-0.0129784,0.0230573,0.0315155,-0.0071118,-0.0032219,-0.0034813,-0.0016344,0.000817,0.0034265,-0.0023459,-0.0059477,0.0084426,-0.0090132,0.0005148
    Lithuanian_RA,0.135108,0.1240977,0.083306,0.0805239,0.0431158,0.0294229,0.0123146,0.015207,-0.0044994,-0.0323469,-0.0030203,-0.012469,0.0240532,0.0300018,-0.0152957,0.0017237,0.0070014,-0.0013936,0.00494,0.0030138,-0.0053282,-0.0060342,0.010057,-0.0066392,-0.0003714
    Lithuanian_SZ,0.1347664,0.1258242,0.0861344,0.0877268,0.0448392,0.0315424,0.0128081,0.0185529,-0.0019633,-0.0353537,-0.0039137,-0.0127386,0.0235031,0.0296026,-0.0123914,0.0018563,0.005111,-0.0012796,0.0020866,0.0021511,-0.0029574,-0.0067636,0.0070251,-0.0104229,0.0029337
    Lithuanian_VA,0.1344249,0.1257226,0.0824762,0.0750975,0.0433311,0.027889,0.0099878,0.014884,-0.0020454,-0.0298685,-0.0029553,-0.0138328,0.0200394,0.0280062,-0.0110613,0.0029435,0.0061411,-0.0005702,0.0023129,0.0061155,-0.003731,-0.00481,0.0072346,-0.0078805,-0.0008622
    Lithuanian_VZ,0.1372991,0.1261795,0.0850879,0.082365,0.0444314,0.0326652,0.0104872,0.0176242,-0.0036048,-0.0315269,-0.0036131,-0.0097039,0.0199762,0.0301394,-0.0104505,-0.0045578,-0.0006029,0.0012828,0.0032525,0.0013445,-0.0043829,-0.0056728,0.00835,-0.005874,-0.001317
    Ukrainian,0.1309273,0.1240867,0.0683506,0.0575551,0.0376867,0.0212936,0.0087651,0.0113072,-0.002891,-0.0210999,-0.0016327,-0.0076594,0.0153563,0.0216328,-0.0112354,-0.0010965,0.0046903,-0.0006985,0.0025989,0.0017002,-0.0044989,-0.003479,0.0067387,-0.0040578,0.0007217
    Finnish,0.1305931,0.0918715,0.0899057,0.0766156,0.0317187,0.0232595,0.0087265,0.013184,0.0031769,-0.023071,0.0036809,-0.0060345,0.0119227,0.0058077,0.0021081,-0.0012815,-0.008136,0.0006589,0.0012905,0.0027597,0.0070458,0.0011706,0.0027937,0.0056955,0.0021076
    Finnish_East,0.1265711,0.0754538,0.0952229,0.0812991,0.0279127,0.0239846,0.0090243,0.0163608,0.0052153,-0.0301419,0.0047905,-0.008887,0.0185082,0.005725,0.0008008,-0.0028109,-0.0050329,-0.0003168,-0.0020741,0.0054275,0.0088094,0.0012738,0.0022678,0.0049162,0.0044066
    Czech,0.1311592,0.1318625,0.0604843,0.0472574,0.038658,0.0189217,0.0063451,0.0086623,0.0046724,-0.0088874,-0.0016862,-0.0038965,0.0060493,0.011772,0.0017435,0.0009995,-0.0006419,-0.0001462,0.0035679,0.0028956,-0.001267,-0.0001617,0.0065132,0.0039302,0.0015935
    The result is:



    RhinelandOG is an attempt to isolate German Ashkenazim without admixture from the back migration of Eastern Ashkenazim. I think this was mostly successful, but I did end up choosing 2 with a partial southern shift due to having less German and/or more non-Ashkenazi Jewish admixture. Finnish is in there because I recall it popping up on Gedmatch for Eastern Ashkenazim all the time. However, it doesn't seem to skew the results, as none are picking it up. Overfit doesn't seem to be an issue here.
    Dad is ~10% German Ashkenazim with apparently no eastern pull (beyond Czech). Dai shows for me, apparently thanks to my Lebanese side?


    Target: DewslothDad_scaled
    Distance: 3.3977% / 0.03397690
    75.4 Czech
    19.8 RhinelandOG:Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_4
    4.8 RhinelandOG:Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_6


    Target: Dewsloth_scaled
    Distance: 2.1728% / 0.02172826
    56.8 RhinelandOG:Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_4
    23.4 Czech
    19.4 RhinelandOG:Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_6
    0.4 Dai
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  3. #10002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    The case in favour of an Israelite identification is definitely much stronger for Megiddo_IA than it is for Abel Beth Maacah. The Benayau inscription in itself, while interesting, doesn't allow us to label the site Israelite (at least not in a way that isn't hyperbolic), considering the presence of a dozen individuals bearing Yahwistic names with the northern theophoric ending -yau at Kuntillet Ajrud deep in the south, Benayau could easily have been an Israelite wine merchant and not a local. All in all, one name doesn't tell us much about the overall population's ethnic makeup, beyond the presence of Israelites in the area (which no one in his right mind would deny). What would be significant would be finding other inscriptions (in the form of ostraca) proving that a sizeable part of the population bore Yahwistic names, in which case Abel Beth Maacah could be described as culturally Israelite.

    Iron I Megiddo however is much closer both in time and space to the earliest Israelites, moreover we know that the city at that time had a mixed Israelite population from the material finds, something that cannot be said for Abel Beth Maacah. Most scholars (except the "minimalists") reject Finkelstein's concept of a "New Canaan", and maintain that the site had a mixed Israelite-coastal Canaanite population (not necessarily Philistine, this is still up for debate however).

    There is of course no doubt that both sites eventually became Israelite, that happened much earlier and lasted much longer in Megiddo than in Abel Beth Maacah for the reasons I've stated above (namely its proximity in time and space to the core area where the Israelites emerged). I must add though that both might easily be Israelite, even though the evidence more strongly points in Megiddo_IA's direction if we are to apply such a label.
    I agree that the Benayau name alone isn't great evidence, but just to clarify, you believe that Stratum 6 (where I4517 was found) was Israelite? I only recently started reading about Megiddo's history but I was under the impression that stratum 6 would have been pre-Israelite. Assuming you are correct about at least the Israelite presence in stratum 6, I see why you come to the conclusion that I4517 is more likely Israelite than I2201. However, in ABM there are (probably) only two possibilities, Aramean and Israelite, whereas in Megiddo as you said there is a debate about whether there were Philistines. If I4517 was a Philistine (I don't think there was any evidence to the contrary), that could represent a significant deviation from Israelites genetically, and make I4517 a bad genetic proxy, on the other hand if I2201 is Aramean (if I'm not mistaken Arameans and Israelites are considered to have been very close genetically) it doesn't pose as big of a problem from a genetic standpoint.
    23andMe:
    99.6% Ashkenazi Jewish
    0.3% Broadly European
    0.1% Unassigned

    Eurogenes K13:
    East_Med 39.85
    West_Med 20.41
    North_Atlantic 12.84
    West_Asian 9.90
    Baltic 7.64
    Red_Sea 5.56
    East_Asian 1.25
    Northeast_African 1.04

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  5. #10003
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    Very nice job Erikl.This thread is very helpful for people with Levantine and East med genes.

    I would like to thank everyone who posted here and more specific Agamemnon.I learned so much from him.His posts are blessing and i am learning every day something new and not only about genes but also about history.Keep it up mate!!!

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  7. #10004
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkotl0327 View Post
    Why do you think so? I have only one great-grandmother from Nikolaev oblast. Someone from her paternal side immigrated from Germany and based on chronology I would say probably a great-great grandparent. However, that shtetl was populated with a significant amount of these German Jews and even someone like her paternal grandfather might have been genetically 100% German Jewish even though this is probably not very likely, so if anything I would've guessed less E. Asian from that side.
    Because it's in the area/near the area of Litvak colonies. Late Yekke arrivals to Nikolaev? Mind pm'ing/sharing the source?
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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  9. #10005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    The case in favour of an Israelite identification is definitely much stronger for Megiddo_IA than it is for Abel Beth Maacah. The Benayau inscription in itself, while interesting, doesn't allow us to label the site Israelite (at least not in a way that isn't hyperbolic), considering the presence of a dozen individuals bearing Yahwistic names with the northern theophoric ending -yau at Kuntillet Ajrud deep in the south, Benayau could easily have been an Israelite wine merchant and not a local. All in all, one name doesn't tell us much about the overall population's ethnic makeup, beyond the presence of Israelites in the area (which no one in his right mind would deny). What would be significant would be finding other inscriptions (in the form of ostraca) proving that a sizeable part of the population bore Yahwistic names, in which case Abel Beth Maacah could be described as culturally Israelite.

    Iron I Megiddo however is much closer both in time and space to the earliest Israelites, moreover we know that the city at that time had a mixed Israelite population from the material finds, something that cannot be said for Abel Beth Maacah. Most scholars (except the "minimalists") reject Finkelstein's concept of a "New Canaan", and maintain that the site had a mixed Israelite-coastal Canaanite population (not necessarily Philistine, this is still up for debate however).

    There is of course no doubt that both sites eventually became Israelite, that happened much earlier and lasted much longer in Megiddo than in Abel Beth Maacah for the reasons I've stated above (namely its proximity in time and space to the core area where the Israelites emerged). I must add though that both might easily be Israelite, even though the evidence more strongly points in Megiddo_IA's direction if we are to apply such a label.
    All I'll add is that suggestively (though not conclusively), the ABM individual belongs to T-CTS6280—an impressively high-res terminal SNP call—and probably lived within just a few hundred years of its MRCA. Anyway, the branch has Lebanese, Sardinians, Iberians/Hispanics, and English people, suggestive of a possible Phoenician spread, as well as Arabians, suggestive of some sort of connection with the Syrian Desert (via Arameans?). Conspicuously, no Jews have shown up in this diverse assemblage. However, there are 3 phylogenetically-established Jewish branches I know of (2 Ashkenazi, 1 Ashkenazi/Iraqi Jewish/Southern Lebanese non-Jewish) under its sister-branch, T-FGC80981.

    This might suggest that while some northern Israelites shared direct MBA roots with the people of ABM, the people of ABM, or at least this one, were part of a gene pool that contributed to Phoenicians and Arabs, but not Jews.
    Last edited by hartaisarlag; 07-08-2020 at 09:37 PM.
    The clock indicates the moment—but what does eternity indicate?

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  11. #10006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post

    There are several maternal lineages among Ashkenazim which are unquestionably of Eastern European origins, like the major K2a2a, and the less common maternal V7/V7a, H11a, and J1c7a, and their main distribution among non-Jewish Europeans is in Poland and Northeastern Europe (ie Lithuania, not Russia of course where Ashkenazi Jews were not allowed to reside until 1917).
    J1c7a is most common in Scandinavia and Finland, then Germany, then finally Eastern Europe. Both J1c7a and K2a2a may be of German origin.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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  13. #10007
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Because it's in the area/near the area of Litvak colonies. Late Yekke arrivals to Nikolaev? Mind pm'ing/sharing the source?
    Source is familial. My great-grandmother's last name was Nemetz (which means German in Russian). In the shtetl of Kantokuzinka (today Pribuzhany, across the Bug from the city of Voznesensk) about 5% of the people had this last name from what I understand. I'm not sure if any documents exist on the internet about this Germany -> Ukraine migration, but that's what all of the older people from that shtetl told me. From what I heard most of the shtetl's founding population in the 1790s-1810s were German Jews. I know that the German Jews mostly lived on the Kantokuzinka side of the river and the Litvaks in Voznesensk itself. I think I might have heard of some great-great-great grandmother being from the Voznesensk side so maybe some distant Litvak.
    Last edited by jkotl0327; 07-08-2020 at 09:51 PM.
    23andMe:
    99.6% Ashkenazi Jewish
    0.3% Broadly European
    0.1% Unassigned

    Eurogenes K13:
    East_Med 39.85
    West_Med 20.41
    North_Atlantic 12.84
    West_Asian 9.90
    Baltic 7.64
    Red_Sea 5.56
    East_Asian 1.25
    Northeast_African 1.04

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  15. #10008
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    All I'll add is that suggestively (though not conclusively), the ABM individual belongs to T-CTS6280—an impressively high-res terminal SNP call—and probably lived within just a few hundred years of its MRCA. Anyway, the branch has Lebanese, Sardinians, Iberians/Hispanics, and English people, suggestive of a possible Phoenician spread, as well as Arabians, suggestive of some sort of connection with the Syrian Desert (via Arameans?). Conspicuously, no Jews have shown up in this diverse assemblage. However, there are 3 phylogenetically-established Jewish branches I know of (2 Ashkenazi, 1 Ashkenazi/Iraqi Jewish/Southern Lebanese non-Jewish) under its sister-branch, T-FGC80981.

    This might suggest that while some northern Israelites shared direct MBA roots with the people of ABM, the people of ABM, or at least this one, were part of a gene pool that contributed to Phoenicians and Arabs, but not Jews.
    Aramean influence on I2201 might have caused this Phoenician haplogroup to end up in I2201. Any insight on I2201's mtDNA? I agree with what you are saying, distant common paternal ancestry between Israelites and Arameans/Phoenicians is possible but I2201 looks paternally Aramean. Maybe maternally Israelite? I'm bad at haplogroup research so I'll wait to hear what you and others have to say.
    23andMe:
    99.6% Ashkenazi Jewish
    0.3% Broadly European
    0.1% Unassigned

    Eurogenes K13:
    East_Med 39.85
    West_Med 20.41
    North_Atlantic 12.84
    West_Asian 9.90
    Baltic 7.64
    Red_Sea 5.56
    East_Asian 1.25
    Northeast_African 1.04

  16. #10009
    Registered Users
    Posts
    331
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jew
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-Z26381 (I2c2)
    mtDNA (M)
    H7c2
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-CTS5265
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a9

    Israel Israel Jerusalem Ukraine Uzbekistan Star of David
    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    J1c7a is most common in Scandinavia and Finland, then Germany, then finally Eastern Europe. Both J1c7a and K2a2a may be of German origin.
    Evidence for K2a2a being German?
    23andMe:
    99.6% Ashkenazi Jewish
    0.3% Broadly European
    0.1% Unassigned

    Eurogenes K13:
    East_Med 39.85
    West_Med 20.41
    North_Atlantic 12.84
    West_Asian 9.90
    Baltic 7.64
    Red_Sea 5.56
    East_Asian 1.25
    Northeast_African 1.04

  17. #10010
    Registered Users
    Posts
    259
    Sex

    Morocco
    Quote Originally Posted by jkotl0327 View Post
    I understand that female conversions happened (especially in Lithuania and to some degree Poland) but a lot of these records are from very early in E. European Jewish history (1500s). It is my understanding that conversions after the early 1600s continued to occur but much more rarely due to pressure from both Jewish and Christian authorities. In areas like W. Ukraine, I think conversions were even less common because of the immediate onslaught of pogroms fairly early like in the Khmelnitski uprising of the early 1600s (not sure if Lithuania and Belarus also saw a lot of pogroms that early).

    As for haplogroups, I admit I haven't done as much research as I would have liked. I know V7a is NE Euro but it was my impression that it is relatively uncommon in Jews (only saw 3 23andme matches with it). I always thought H11a peaked in NW and Central Europe and I've never seen any Jews with it. Of course I've heard of J1c7a as a famous example of Slavic mtDNA (I've seen at least 15 23andme matches with it). I've never heard of K2a2a being of E. Euro origins, in fact I have read that 2 Caucasian Jews with K2a2a were identified. I know K2a exists all over Europe and Middle East. What is the evidence that K2a2a and H11a are E. Euro?
    I don't know about H11a, but I'm H11b1, and I have 66 matches on FTDNA with HVR1, 2 and Coding Regions. All these matches seem to be maternally Jewish.

  18. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to coffeeprince For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-09-2020),  grumpydaddybear (07-08-2020),  jkotl0327 (07-08-2020),  Power77 (07-10-2020),  Táltos (07-09-2020)

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