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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #10021
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    I would like to re-post the simple vahadoo result that i shared in the other jewish thread (but had no reactions ,

    what do you think about it, especially are these different Levantine ratios informative or is it a statistical artifact? In fact

    Druzes are also quite mixed but in general they are quite northern (i.e. Anatolian) ,

    i wish we had G25 from the Nusayri samples and more Christian arabs from Galilee.

    screenshot-vahaduo.github.io-2020.07.04-15_40_28.png
    Last edited by eolien; 07-09-2020 at 07:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuorilegge View Post
    I would say the main difference are the levels of North African in Jews, inherited by Ancestral North Africans, into the Levant in the Holocene.

    Culturally, I am not so sure they are similar either. Greeks have an Indo-European culture, while Jews have a Semitic one. Throughout history, they have had different experiences as a people. For example, the Romans, despite conquering Greeks, raised their culture to unprecedented heights. While with the Jews, they banished them from Israel, and named the land after their mortal enemies. They vehemently despised the Semitic carthaginians, and considered them foreigners from Phoenicia, then facilitated a genocide against them. Because of this, Greek culture has been celebrated throughout history in Europe, by preceding super-powers, while Jews were shunned, and vilified.

    Ironically the Phoenician-elites that ruled over the North Africans in Carthage could infact trace their some of their ancient ancestry back to North Africa. Since 27% of Natufian DNA comes from Ancestral North Africans, but I don't think that would have mattered to Cato and the Romans. The point was to alienate them.

    Yes there was some admixture of South Eastern European, into the Levant, during the Iron age, and classical era. Plus there was the Philistines conquering the Western coast of the Levant; the Philistines, were indeed Greek-like, from Crete.

    The Ancient Greeks do have Iranian/Caucasian ancestry, as verified by Lazaridis et al 2017 . Moreover, there is also Anatolian_N ancestry that they both have. But these ancestries are shared with a lot of people in the whole of West Eurasia.

    This thread should better examine the nuances that make these people unique. You don't have to be genetically similar to get along.

    Just my honest impression of this thread.
    I wish I knew what an 'Indo-European' culture was in contrast to a 'Semitic' one. Perhaps a Maltese member can enlighten me. Our affinity as Greeks extends to the καθ'ημας ανατολη too. It means nothing to me personally that our Orthodox co-religionists in the Near East speak Arabic or Aramaic. For me, this bond also extends to the Christians of the region as a whole, as well as the Jews, given the joint historic bond of having lived as dhimmi under the Ottomans. Italians did not face this fate and instead were busy with their partially Greek-inspired Renaissance. Another bond (and there are so many, but I really don't wish to go off thread) is that Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians and Jews all faced genocides in the 20thc.

    Greek culture has indeed been celebrated in Europe through the centuries by many wishing to portray it very much in their image and through a degree of cultural appropriation. Ironically, Orientalism and Balkanism still remain in the European pecking order. The Fourth Crusade still resonates in the collective memory of Greeks and the entire Neo-Orthodox tradition of writers such as Christos Yanaras is anti-Western. I don't belong to that school of thought myself, being passionately pro-European. But that ideological strand does exist as a result of painful historical memory. Now in Europe it's fashionable to speak of a 'Judeo-Christian' tradition, in a welcome attempt to be more inclusive.

    So where does the West or East start or finish? Where does an 'Indo-European' or 'Semitic' world begin or end? It's all blurred and nuanced, as I tried to underline in my original post's 'genetic cocktail' reference. The same applies to our beloved 'Mediterranean genetic continuum', a phrase which I'm not sure Sarno and co had even coined when this thread started. Whether a glass is half full or half empty is in the eye of the beholder, which can depend on context. Vive la différence et vive la similarité (as my dear Gallic cousins would say), and they are by no means mutually exclusive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    I would like to re-post the simple vahadoo result that i shared in the other jewish thread (but had no reactions ,

    what do you think about it, especially are these different Levantine ratios informative or is it a statistical artifact? In fact

    Druzes are also quite mixed but in general they are quite northern (i.e. Anatolian) ,

    i wish we had G25 from the Nusayri samples and more Christian arabs from Galilee.

    screenshot-vahaduo.github.io-2020.07.04-15_40_28.png
    I think your sources for Iranian/Assyrian are too close to create meaningful results for the Iranian Jews in particular? And I would always add some European source, at least some Ashkenazi to check whether there was some kind of backflow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpydaddybear View Post
    Aga

    Can you recommend some contra-Finkelstein archaeologists to read?

    Also, any books / papers on Hellenistic and Roman era Galilean Jews?

    Thank you
    As for books on Hellenistic and Roman era Jews, especially Galilean Jews, I'd recommend Louis Feldman's "Jew and Gentile in the Ancient World". It's quite in-depth and fascinating.
    Check out my Hidden Content

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    I have a more general question which the debate in this thread touched, which is recent gentile admixture and converts. Looking at what companies like 23andme or Myheritage assigns, most people with 4 Ashkenazi grandparents score especially on 23andme something like 99 %. How far back would a recent admixture be recognised by the algorithm? If someone had 3 non-AJ ancestors in the 18th century, would that stick out? They wouldn't have been part of the bottle neck and being recent admixture instead, but still back far enough for being rather widespread and integreated in the AJ gene pool. Yet they wouldn't be "common Ashkenazi", but restricted to only some locality and families. Where would those with experience for samples from different AJ groups draw the line between what's being commonly subsumed under AJ and what would stick out as different admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    The same applies to our beloved 'Mediterranean genetic continuum'.
    The trajectory of Greek genetics:


    The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1,2, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 and Iran4,5. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6,7,8, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1,6,9 or Armenia4,9.

    Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.


    ...

    Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists 22, are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Mycenaeans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310
    The trajectory of Ashkenazi Jewish genetics:

    The Ashkenazi Jewish (AJ) population is important in genetics due to its high rate of Mendelian disorders. AJ appeared in Europe in the 10th century, and their ancestry is thought to comprise European (EU) and Middle-Eastern (ME) components. However, both the time and place of admixture are subject to debate. Here, we attempt to characterize the AJ admixture history using a careful application of new and existing methods on a large AJ sample. Our main approach was based on local ancestry inference, in which we first classified each AJ genomic segment as EU or ME, and then compared allele frequencies along the EU segments to those of different EU populations. The contribution of each EU source was also estimated using GLOBETROTTER and haplotype sharing. The time of admixture was inferred based on multiple statistics, including ME segment lengths, the total EU ancestry per chromosome, and the correlation of ancestries along the chromosome. The major source of EU ancestry in AJ was found to be Southern Europe (≈60–80% of EU ancestry), with the rest being likely Eastern European. The inferred admixture time was ≈30 generations ago, but multiple lines of evidence suggest that it represents an average over two or more events, pre- and post-dating the founder event experienced by AJ in late medieval times. The time of the pre-bottleneck admixture event, which was likely Southern European, was estimated to ≈25–50 generations ago.



    https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1006644
    Last edited by Fuorilegge; 07-09-2020 at 10:19 AM.
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  11. #10027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuorilegge View Post
    The trajectory of Greek genetics:

    The trajectory of Ashkenazi Jewish genetics:
    Both papers are outdated and not precise enough even for when they were published.

    Greeks by and large have a lot of Slavic ancestry, while Ashkenazi Jews have much less than 15-25%.

    Some of the Slavic-like ancestry in Ashkenazi Jews is of course German.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    I would like to re-post the simple vahadoo result that i shared in the other jewish thread (but had no reactions ,

    what do you think about it, especially are these different Levantine ratios informative or is it a statistical artifact?
    The Druze as a religious group probably came about into existence hundreds of years after Islam. Their origins are a little mysterious, although they are no doubt Levantine, they don't seem quite as Canaanite descended as Christian Levantine Arabs, that's for sure! IMO the Karaite Egyptian and Syrian Jews are latching onto the Druze in this model mostly, because the other Levantine Christian source choices can't justify the higher level of Neolithic Anatolian and Steppe they have compared to Levantine-Arabs, so latching to the Druze makes sense in this regard. If that model had other more appropriate sources (not your fault, but we still need future Near Eastern ancient samples) than quite probably like the Iranian/Iraqi Jews, they should score Samaritan. I don't see either Syrian Jews or Karaite Jews as 100% Levantine, same with the Druze.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Both papers are outdated and not precise enough even for when they were published.

    Greeks by and large have a lot of Slavic ancestry, while Ashkenazi Jews have much less than 15-25%.

    Some of the Slavic-like ancestry in Ashkenazi Jews is of course German.
    If Lazaridis et al. 2017 is unreliable, why is it still cited by premier authors in 2020?:

    The mitogenome portrait of Umbria in Central Italy as depicted by contemporary inhabitants and pre-Roman remains.
    Modi A, Lancioni H, Cardinali I, Capodiferro MR, Rambaldi Migliore N, Hussein A, Strobl C, Bodner M, Schnaller L, Xavier C, Rizzi E, Bonomi Ponzi L, Vai S, Raveane A, Cavadas B, Semino O, Torroni A, Olivieri A, Lari M, Pereira L, Parson W, Caramelli D, Achilli A. Sci Rep. 2020 Jul 1;10(1):10700. doi: 10.1038/s41598-020-67445-0. PMID: 32612271 Free PMC article.
    A Genetic History of the Near East from an aDNA Time Course Sampling Eight Points in the Past 4,000 Years.
    Haber M, Nassar J, Almarri MA, Saupe T, Saag L, Griffith SJ, Doumet-Serhal C, Chanteau J, Saghieh-Beydoun M, Xue Y, Scheib CL, Tyler-Smith C. Am J Hum Genet. 2020 Jul 2;107(1):149-157. doi: 10.1016/j.ajhg.2020.05.008. Epub 2020 May 28. PMID: 32470374

    Genomic history of the Italian population recapitulates key evolutionary dynamics of both Continental and Southern Europeans.
    Sazzini M, Abondio P, Sarno S, Gnecchi-Ruscone GA, Ragno M, Giuliani C, De Fanti S, Ojeda-Granados C, Boattini A, Marquis J, Valsesia A, Carayol J, Raymond F, Pirazzini C, Marasco E, Ferrarini A, Xumerle L, Collino S, Mari D, Arosio B, Monti D, Passarino G, D'Aquila P, Pettener D, Luiselli D, Castellani G, Delledonne M, Descombes P, Franceschi C, Garagnani P. BMC Biol. 2020 May 22;18(1):51. doi: 10.1186/s12915-020-00778-4. PMID: 32438927 Free PMC article.

    Ancient genomes reveal social and genetic structure of Late Neolithic Switzerland.
    Furtwängler A, Rohrlach AB, Lamnidis TC, Papac L, Neumann GU, Siebke I, Reiter E, Steuri N, Hald J, Denaire A, Schnitzler B, Wahl J, Ramstein M, Schuenemann VJ, Stockhammer PW, Hafner A, Lösch S, Haak W, Schiffels S, Krause J. Nat Commun. 2020 Apr 20;11(1):1915. doi: 10.1038/s41467-020-15560-x. PMID: 32313080 Free PMC article.

    The spread of steppe and Iranian-related ancestry in the islands of the western Mediterranean.
    Fernandes DM, Mittnik A, Olalde I, Lazaridis I, Cheronet O, Rohland N, Mallick S, Bernardos R, Broomandkhoshbacht N, Carlsson J, Culleton BJ, Ferry M, Gamarra B, Lari M, Mah M, Michel M, Modi A, Novak M, Oppenheimer J, Sirak KA, Stewardson K, Mandl K, Schattke C, Özdoğan KT, Lucci M, Gasperetti G, Candilio F, Salis G, Vai S, Camarós E, Calò C, Catalano G, Cueto M, Forgia V, Lozano M, Marini E, Micheletti M, Miccichè RM, Palombo MR, Ramis D, Schimmenti V, Sureda P, Teira L, Teschler-Nicola M, Kennett DJ, Lalueza-Fox C, Patterson N, Sineo L, Coppa A, Caramelli D, Pinhasi R, Reich D. Nat Ecol Evol. 2020 Mar;4(3):334-345. doi: 10.1038/s41559-020-1102-0. Epub 2020 Feb 24. PMID: 32094539

    Genetic history from the Middle Neolithic to present on the Mediterranean island of Sardinia.
    Marcus JH, Posth C, Ringbauer H, Lai L, Skeates R, Sidore C, Beckett J, Furtwängler A, Olivieri A, Chiang CWK, Al-Asadi H, Dey K, Joseph TA, Liu CC, Der Sarkissian C, Radzevičiūtė R, Michel M, Gradoli MG, Marongiu P, Rubino S, Mazzarello V, Rovina D, La Fragola A, Serra RM, Bandiera P, Bianucci R, Pompianu E, Murgia C, Guirguis M, Orquin RP, Tuross N, van Dommelen P, Haak W, Reich D, Schlessinger D, Cucca F, Krause J, Novembre J. Nat Commun. 2020 Feb 24;11(1):939. doi: 10.1038/s41467-020-14523-6. PMID: 32094358 Free PMC article.


    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28783727/
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  16. #10030
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuorilegge View Post
    If Lazaridis et al. 2017 is unreliable, why is it still cited by premier authors in 2020?:
    Are you claiming that my comments about those papers weren't accurate?

    What would you like to bet on that?

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