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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    But why? You said before that it is due to "Slavic and Levantine" input in Greece but this contradicts things you've said before, which was that Greeks do not have Levantine ancestry and have less of it than southern Italians.
    Nope, she seems like a pre-Slavic Greek to me - which is why she also clusters to a large degree with mainland Greeks - don't forget S. Italians also have Neolithic Sardinian-like admixture - it didn't disappear - however, they are closer to ancient Greeks than modern day Greeks because of the higher Slavic and Levantine admixture in modern Greek mainlanders (Slavic) or Islanders (Levantine) .
    Last edited by Erikl86; 07-01-2018 at 04:04 PM.

  2. #1002
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    @Erikl86
    the funny thing is that this Greek (or Sicilian?) early medieval woman isn't even that far from the Mycenaeans lived almost 2000 years before her!
    I9041 (highest quality Mycenaean available) vs STR_300

    28.3025 Anatolian Farmer 24.4025
    10.3925 Baltic Hunter Gatherer 13.5925
    15.7625 Middle Eastern Herder 14.9825
    45.5425 Mediterranean Farmer 47.0225

    1 Christian_Arabs_Israel + Gagauz + Sardinian + Sicilian_Center @ 4.289137
    1 87.3% Sicilian_Center + 12.7% Sardinian @ 4.38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I guess I agree with that.


    You kind of contradict yourself and let me clarify why:

    All Sicilians currently have a substantial amount of Greek admixture, since they mixed and it's an island.

    Trapanese and perhaps Palermo people have a little less Greek admixture, as they plot further away from S. Italians, Aegeans and E. Sicilians (a little bit), Trapanese especially because they have also some Norman admixture (proven by elevated I1 y-haplogroups).

    However, both Trapani AND Palermo have higher Levantine and perhaps, I'm not sure, higher N. African admixture.

    Calabrians have much less Levantine admixture and MUCH more Greek admixture.

    And, Calabrians cluster closer with Sephardim than Trapanese or Palermo (or even E. Sicilians).


    Ergo: while of course Sephardim, and Sicilians, and some Aegean Greeks, and some Calabrian have some Levantine admixture (among Sephardim it's the highest, IMO), they cluster closest with Calabrians - because in all of these populations, the Greek/Hellenic/Aegean is the most dominant.

    Kapish?

    My answer to this is that Calabrians and Dodecanese plot similar to Sephardim primarily because of a lack of northern admixture. Calabria and Dodecanese have almost NO Slavic, Norman, Arvanite, North Italian admixture, they are as purely eastern Mediterranean as it gets.
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 07-01-2018 at 04:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Nope, she seems like a pre-Slavic Greek to me - which is why she also clusters to a large degree with mainland Greeks - don't forget S. Italians also have Neolithic Sardinian-like admixture - it didn't disappear - however, they are closer to ancient Greeks than modern day Greeks because of the higher Slavic and Levantine admixture in modern Greek mainlanders (Slavic) or Islanders (Levantine) .
    When you say south Italians here do you mean Sicily or do you mean the mainland? Who exactly are you saying is the Italian population closer to Mycenaeans who has less Levantine admixture than Aegean islanders? Please try to be specific because when we are discussing 5 populations at once it can be very confusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Calabria and Dodecanese have almost NO Slavic, Norman, Arvanite, North Italian admixture, they are as purely eastern Mediterranean as it gets.
    When it comes to southern Italy, you are always exaggerating a bit. I said everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    When it comes to southern Italy, you are always exaggerating a bit. I said everything.
    But we do know Calabria and Dodecanese have less "north" shifting admixture than the other Aegean islands or other regions of south Italy. How much the difference is can be debated, but this difference does exist and I am proposing this is explaining the plotting with Sephardim.

  9. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    My answer to this is that Calabrians and Dodecanese plot similar to Sephardim primarily because of a lack of northern admixture. Calabria and Dodecanese have almost NO Slavic, Norman, Arvanite, North Italian admixture, they are as purely eastern Mediterranean as it get tos.
    Your confusion stems from the fact that you seem to be unable to let go of your agenda.

    S. Italians, for sure, would also have W. European Neolithic Sadinian-like admixture, remnant of the pre-Greek population that was not unlike the Sicani, Sicels of Sicily. They would also surely have some Sicilian admixture - from the same refugees/migrants that brought some Levantine admixture to S. Italians.

    Yet, they still cluster closer to Sephardim than Sicilians that have more Levantine and even some Berber admixture.

    Your main issue is that you indeed exaggerate on the slight differences between West/East Sicilians. This is an island, and an homogeneous one in terms of language and religion. If Turkish and Greek Cypriots are very similar genetically, then obviously Sicilians are more so.

    It is true that there are certain trends - for example, elevated levels of I1 haplogroup in Trapani, maybe lower Greek ancestry generally in West Sicily - but these are all miniscule.

    You have remember, when we look at the big picture, all populations: Sicilians, S. Italians, Aegeans, Dodecanese Greeks, Cretans and Western Jews cluster together. What we do is we put them in this thread under a microscope if you will, and try to pinpoint what is the common ground in all of them.
    Your first clue that this is the case is the huge amount of outliers in all of these groups - some samples cluster closer to one of those populations while another of similar ethnic background clusters closer with another.

    You don't have to over sell me the Levantine component - IMO Western Jews, other than Syrian Jews or Cypriots, have the highest amount of all the other : Sicilians, S. Italians, Cretans, S. Aegean and Dodecanese Greeks.

    Yet, Phoenician and Punic settlement was more in the West parts of Sicily, and the Dodecanese also have some Slavic admixture (albeit small). Yet Calabrians and Apulians which basically have lower Levantine admixture than both Sicilians and Dodecanese, cluster very close with Sephardim. S. Italians also seem to cluster closer to a pre-Slavic 300 AD Greek woman.
    What does that tell you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    But we do know Calabria and Dodecanese have less "north" shifting admixture than the other Aegean islands or other regions of south Italy. How much the difference is can be debated, but this difference does exist and I am proposing this is explaining the plotting with Sephardim.
    Ashkenazi jews have more Near Eastern admixture than Calabrese. Sephardim are a different cathegory and almost plot with Levantines (especially Libyan and Tunisian Jews.) Parts of Calabria including Reggio Calabria received significant arberesche settlements so some results will be northern plotting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Your confusion stems from the fact that you seem to be unable to let go of your agenda.

    S. Italians, for sure, would also have W. European Neolithic Sadinian-like admixture, remnant of the pre-Greek population that was not unlike the Sicani, Sicels of Sicily. They would also surely have some Sicilian admixture - from the same refugees/migrants that brought some Levantine admixture to S. Italians.

    Yet, they still cluster closer to Sephardim than Sicilians that have more Levantine and even some Berber admixture.

    Your main issue is that you indeed exaggerate on the slight differences between West/East Sicilians. This is an island, and an homogeneous one in terms of language and religion. If Turkish and Greek Cypriots are very similar genetically, then obviously Sicilians are more so.

    It is true that there are certain trends - for example, elevated levels of I1 haplogroup in Trapani, maybe lower Greek ancestry generally in West Sicily - but these are all miniscule.

    You have remember, when we look at the big picture, all populations: Sicilians, S. Italians, Aegeans, Dodecanese Greeks, Cretans and Western Jews cluster together. What we do is we put them in this thread under a microscope if you will, and try to pinpoint what is the common ground in all of them.
    Your first clue that this is the case is the huge amount of outliers in all of these groups - some samples cluster closer to one of those populations while another of similar ethnic background clusters closer with another.

    You don't have to over sell me the Levantine component - IMO Western Jews, other than Syrian Jews or Cypriots, have the highest amount of all the other : Sicilians, S. Italians, Cretans, S. Aegean and Dodecanese Greeks.

    Yet, Phoenician and Punic settlement was more in the West parts of Sicily, and the Dodecanese also have some Slavic admixture (albeit small). Yet Calabrians and Apulians which basically have lower Levantine admixture than both Sicilians and Dodecanese, cluster very close with Sephardim. S. Italians also seem to cluster closer to a pre-Slavic 300 AD Greek woman.
    What does that tell you?
    The only thing I disagree with here is that Calabrese have low Levantine. From what I see on most calculators, their SW Asian is higher than would be possible if they didn't have it.

    I don't disagree with any of the rest of this. I think I just get confused because we are throwing around terms without being clear what we mean. "South Italian" to mean mainlanders in one context but including Sicilians in another, saying "South Aegean" to mean Dodecanese when Cyclades/Crete are also South Aegean, and so on. I think as long as we properly define our terminology we should have a clear understanding.

    In the grand scheme of things, all Western Jews, Aegean islands, and South Italy/Sicily are close together, with all other Italians and mainland Greeks being separate/in a different cluster. In some regard we are REALLY nit picking here. Sarno et al for instance mentions that roughly half of Greek islanders plot with Trapani and Apulia, not with E-C Sicily or Calabria... so how much should we really nitpick here?

    With regard to the origins of Jews, I still am not completely sold that all or even most of the European input is Aegean, but you've at least convinced me that a non-negligible part of it is. So in that regard, I agree.

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  15. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Sarno et al for instance mentions that roughly half of Greek islanders plot with Trapani and Apulia, not with E-C Sicily or Calabria.
    Did she really state this?


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