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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #10171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanchik View Post
    From my Knowlegde your North Atlantid is low.
    Who/what are you referring to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Who/what are you referring to?
    Wrong person sorry
    Last edited by Tanchik; 07-18-2020 at 08:34 PM.

  3. #10173
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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    I would like to re-post the simple vahadoo result that i shared in the other jewish thread (but had no reactions ,

    what do you think about it, especially are these different Levantine ratios informative or is it a statistical artifact? In fact

    Druzes are also quite mixed but in general they are quite northern (i.e. Anatolian) ,

    i wish we had G25 from the Nusayri samples and more Christian arabs from Galilee.

    Attachment 38371
    I think you shouldn't have included the syrian jews because they (or at least most of them) are of sephardic origin, so they don't have iranian or assyrian ancestry as Iraqi jews(I have read that some of them have sephardic origin, but most are original Bavlim jews) or Iranian jews but Iberian.

    There are Israeli Arabs Christian on MDLP k16 which is the best calculator for west asians along with HarappaWorld
    Last edited by Themixedpenguin; 07-20-2020 at 10:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Themixedpenguin View Post
    I think you shouldn't have included the syrian jews because they (or at least most of them) are of sephardic origin, so they don't have iranian or assyrian ancestry as Iraqi jews(I have read that some of them have sephardic origin, but most are original Bavlim jews) or Iranian jews but Iberian.
    I'm pretty certain one of the two Syrian Jews definitely has Mizrahi origins, but I think both probably do. One of them is also very obviously Sephardic and scores higher Berber components. According to Erik, among other Syrian Jews on gedmatch, you can find some very similar to Romaniotes but maybe a bit more Levantine-shifted.

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  6. #10175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I'm pretty certain one of the two Syrian Jews definitely has Mizrahi origins, but I think both probably do. One of them is also very obviously Sephardic and scores higher Berber components. According to Erik, among other Syrian Jews on gedmatch, you can find some very similar to Romaniotes but maybe a bit more Levantine-shifted.
    I think that Syrian Jews had both Sephardic and Mizrahi ancestry since Sephardic exodus from Spain started in the XV century, so unless you had an indicator of who was Sephardic and Mizrahi, the mix was inevitable. I have seen Syrian Jews on eurogenes and they usually are like 20% spanish and 80% levantine.
    And Iraqi Jews are obviusly the closest to ancient Jews since they are the closest Jewish ethnic group to the Sidon Bronze Age Canaanite, also they are usually the first jews to appear in the plots of levantines followed by Iranian and Georgian Jews.

    Distance with nMonte to the Bronze Age Canaanites from Sidon.

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Samaritan Lebanese_Christian Lebanese_Druze Lebanese_Muslim
    2.196454 3.195107 4.151007 4.670863
    Palestinian Iraqi_Jew Jordanian
    4.857059 4.876906 7.159471

    Also the closest non Jewish group to Iraqi Jews are the Druze

    MDLP K16
    Distance to: Iraqi_Jew
    4.71218633 Iran_Jew
    7.02168783 Georgian_Jew
    7.18696215 Druze
    7.35195892 Georgian_Jewish
    7.85708597 Armenian_Vanatur_Hrazdan
    7.91581960 Armenian_Vardnis
    8.30972924 Assyrian_WGA
    8.80772956 Lebanese_Druze
    9.04312446 Armenian-CentralArmenia
    9.06480557 Armenian_Lebanon
    9.09612692 Lebanese
    9.61448907 Kurdish_Jewish
    9.62601164 Assyrian_Turkey
    9.63120579 Armenian_Yerevan
    9.65867486 Assyrians
    9.80054080 Lebanese_Armenian

    I would also make an honorable mention for Karaite Egyptians
    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR42
    0.02329748 Lebanese_Christian
    0.02538328 Samaritan
    0.02544114 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    0.02843713 Lebanese_Druze
    0.03014814 Druze
    0.03074464 Karaite_Egypt
    0.03374425 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.04015983 Iraqi_Jew
    0.04200302 Cypriot
    0.04279190 Syrian_Jew
    0.04298080 Palestinian
    0.04492420 Syrian
    0.04946323 Tunisian_Jew
    0.05055548 Libyan_Jew
    0.05206490 Romaniote_Jew
    0.05260988 Iranian_Jew
    0.05865043 Georgian_Jew
    Last edited by Themixedpenguin; 07-20-2020 at 11:36 AM.

  7. #10176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themixedpenguin View Post
    I have seen Syrian Jews on eurogenes and they usually are like 20% spanish in their DNA 80% levantine.
    I don't even think the average Moroccan Jew would have as much as 20% Iberian DNA, so highly doubt that for the average Syrian Jew. You're looking realistically below 10% and probably even below 5%. Also I'm not aware of any Jewish group that could be modelled as 80% Levantine, basing that just off the iron age and roman samples available. Karaite Egyptians could be a possibility, but I havn't looked enough into them.

    And Iraqi Jews are obviusly the closest to ancient Jews since they are the closest Jewish ethnic group to the Sidon Bronze Age Canaanite, also they are usually the first jews to appear in the plots of levantines followed by Iranian and Georgian Jews.
    We don't know that yet. I would imagine Western Jews should be closest to Hellenistic Jewish communities and closer than Mizrahi Jews. If you're talking Israelites, than maybe that's true. Lets keep in mind there is a lack of appropriate ancient Mesopotamian samples to proxy non-Judean admixture in Iraqi Jews, so given that, there is still the possibility a Western Jewish group could have a higher percentage of Canaanite origin.

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  9. #10177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I don't even think the average Moroccan Jew would have as much as 20% Iberian DNA, so highly doubt that for the average Syrian Jew. You're looking realistically below 10% and probably even below 5%. Also I'm not aware of any Jewish group that could be modelled as 80% Levantine, basing that just off the iron age and roman samples available. Karaite Egyptians could be a possibility, but I havn't looked enough into them.



    We don't know that yet. I would imagine Western Jews should be closest to Hellenistic Jewish communities and closer than Mizrahi Jews. If you're talking Israelites, than maybe that's true. Lets keep in mind there is a lack of appropriate ancient Mesopotamian samples to proxy non-Judean admixture in Iraqi Jews, so given that, there is still the possibility a Western Jewish group could have a higher percentage of Canaanite origin.
    Eurogenes k13

    Syrian Jew

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 59.2% Lebanese_Christian + 40.8% South_Italian @ 2.16
    2 73.8% Cyprian + 26.2% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.3
    3 61.6% Lebanese_Christian + 38.4% East_Sicilian @ 2.32
    4 71.4% Cyprian + 28.6% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.33
    5 67.3% Lebanese_Christian + 32.7% West_Sicilian @ 2.37
    6 62% Samaritan + 38% South_Italian @ 2.57
    7 95.5% Cyprian + 4.5% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 2.62
    8 95.6% Cyprian + 4.4% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 2.62
    9 63.5% Lebanese_Christian + 36.5% Central_Greek @ 2.63
    10 78.2% Lebanese_Christian + 21.8% North_Italian @ 2.64
    11 88.1% Cyprian + 11.9% Egyptian @ 2.69
    12 81.8% Lebanese_Christian + 18.2% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.7
    13 67.8% Lebanese_Christian + 32.2% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.7
    14 83.9% Lebanese_Christian + 16.1% Southwest_French @ 2.72
    15 96.3% Cyprian + 3.7% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 2.73
    16 96.4% Cyprian + 3.6% Somali @ 2.74
    17 96.5% Cyprian + 3.5% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 2.76
    18 83.4% Lebanese_Christian + 16.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.76
    19 74.1% Lebanese_Christian + 25.9% Tuscan

    Lebanese Christian + 18.2% Spanish_Andalucia and 16.6% Spanish_Cantabria


    Dodecad K12b Oracle

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 62.9% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 37.1% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 1.79
    2 53% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 47% Lebanese (Behar) @ 1.8
    3 65.9% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 34.1% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 2.01
    4 52.3% Lebanese (Behar) + 47.7% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.14
    5 66.2% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 33.8% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 2.59
    6 76.5% Druze (HGDP) + 23.5% Canarias (1000Genomes) @ 2.75
    7 86% Lebanese (Behar) + 14% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 2.81
    8 62.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 37.6% Jordanians (Behar) @ 2.84
    9 68.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 31.6% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 2.93
    10 61.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 38.2% Syrians (Behar) @ 2.95
    11 64.4% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 35.6% Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) @ 2.96
    12 66.2% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 33.8% Assyrian (Dodecad) @ 3.04
    13 57.2% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 42.8% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.17
    14 66.8% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 33.2% Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) @ 3.26
    15 71.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 28.5% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 3.26
    16 77.5% Druze (HGDP) + 22.5% Portuguese (Dodecad) @ 3.4
    17 63.8% Lebanese (Behar) + 36.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 3.54
    18 77.6% Druze (HGDP) + 22.4% Murcia (1000Genomes) @ 3.69
    19 77.6% Druze (HGDP) + 22.4% Extremadura (1000Genomes) @ 3.69
    20 66.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 33.4% Palestinian (HGDP) @ 3.76

    23.5% Canarias
    22.5% Portuguese
    22.4% Murcia
    22.4% Extremadura
    + Druze in the four cases

    I also saw one that was 19% Iberian, but I couldn't find him.

    And yes I am talking about "Palestinian Jews", that can imply that Iraqi Jews are the ones that have more Levantine or their Mesopotamian component makes them not very different from the Israelites. I think is the first case because if not Syrian Jews(who are Mizrahi + Western Jews) would be the ones that plot closer to other Levantines, because I doubt Syrians were more distant to ancient Jews than Mesopotamians and also as a I said Druze are the closest non Jewish group to Iraqi Jews in MDLP K16 instead of Assyrians for example, Druze are largely Levantine, some have Kurdish, Persian, Egyptian or Yemenite origin, I have not hear of Mesopotamian admix for them, IJ are closer by a good margin to Sidon Canaanites than Jordanians that are mostly Levantine + North Arabian and are basically just as distant as Palestinians. I doubt if there are any Jewish group that are most related genetically to Levantines than them. Maybe some Syrian Jews.

  10. #10178
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    Morocco
    What's a good G25 model (or ancient samples) to use to model myself?

  11. #10179
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    Can anyone recommend some sources on Jews / Jewish settlement history in classical/Roman North Africa? Especially late classical.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

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  13. #10180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themixedpenguin View Post
    I think you shouldn't have included the syrian jews because they (or at least most of them) are of sephardic origin, so they don't have iranian or assyrian ancestry as Iraqi jews(I have read that some of them have sephardic origin, but most are original Bavlim jews) or Iranian jews but Iberian.

    There are Israeli Arabs Christian on MDLP k16 which is the best calculator for west asians along with HarappaWorld
    Here's the K13 for two Sephardic Syrian kits. I'm guessing Cyprus is what one would get with a Sephardic and Mizrahi mix?

    SJ1
     
    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 36.77
    2 West_Asian 23.62
    3 West_Med 16.11
    4 North_Atlantic 9.53
    5 Red_Sea 8.95
    6 South_Asian 2.99
    7 Northeast_African 1.78


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Lebanese_Muslim @ 6.656309
    2 Cyprian @ 8.688815
    3 Syrian @ 8.876945
    4 Tunisian_Jewish @ 12.985136
    5 Sephardic_Jewish @ 13.174488
    6 Assyrian @ 13.595590
    7 Libyan_Jewish @ 13.681363
    8 Kurdish_Jewish @ 13.704696
    9 Turkish @ 13.726513
    10 Jordanian @ 13.748161
    11 Samaritan @ 13.913582
    12 Iranian_Jewish @ 13.993702
    13 Lebanese_Christian @ 14.200787
    14 Lebanese_Druze @ 14.233416
    15 Palestinian @ 14.878822
    16 Italian_Jewish @ 15.737816
    17 South_Italian @ 15.864890
    18 Algerian_Jewish @ 15.927367
    19 Georgian_Jewish @ 16.631041
    20 Armenian @ 17.598284

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Assyrian +50% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.206297


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Armenian +25% Libyan_Jewish +25% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.174371


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Armenian + Kurdish_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.345619
    2 Armenian + Iranian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.379204
    3 Armenian + Assyrian + Libyan_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.662825
    4 Armenian + Italian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.741976
    5 Armenian + Kurdish_Jewish + Libyan_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.743605
    6 Armenian + Iranian_Jewish + Libyan_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.744352
    7 Armenian + Iranian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.782617
    8 Armenian + Assyrian + Sephardic_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.790830
    9 Armenian + Lebanese_Muslim + Sephardic_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.796827
    10 Armenian + Sephardic_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Syrian @ 2.803563
    11 Armenian + Assyrian + Sephardic_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.820948
    12 Armenian + Iranian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.838037
    13 Armenian + Kurdish_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.845491
    14 Armenian + Kurdish_Jewish + Libyan_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.872324
    15 Armenian + Iranian_Jewish + Libyan_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.877259
    16 Armenian + Kurdish_Jewish + Libyan_Jewish + West_Sicilian @ 2.955721
    17 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Iranian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.963236
    18 Armenian + Lebanese_Muslim + Sephardic_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.963756
    19 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Kurdish_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.965391
    20 Armenian + Iranian_Jewish + South_Italian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.967896

    SJ2
     
    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 37.30
    2 West_Asian 20.53
    3 West_Med 19.08
    4 Red_Sea 10.07
    5 North_Atlantic 8.12
    6 Baltic 1.69
    7 Northeast_African 1.26
    8 South_Asian 1.19


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Cyprian @ 5.275448
    2 Lebanese_Muslim @ 7.443755
    3 Syrian @ 9.070371
    4 Tunisian_Jewish @ 10.064334
    5 Libyan_Jewish @ 10.740989
    6 Sephardic_Jewish @ 10.791494
    7 Samaritan @ 11.731629
    8 Algerian_Jewish @ 12.342916
    9 Lebanese_Christian @ 12.874642
    10 Italian_Jewish @ 12.904823
    11 Jordanian @ 13.238412
    12 South_Italian @ 13.836235
    13 Palestinian @ 14.020605
    14 Lebanese_Druze @ 14.577544
    15 East_Sicilian @ 15.587336
    16 Ashkenazi @ 15.958954
    17 Kurdish_Jewish @ 16.116899
    18 Assyrian @ 16.360468
    19 Central_Greek @ 16.603725
    20 Iranian_Jewish @ 16.755064

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Algerian_Jewish +50% Assyrian @ 3.988155


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Cyprian +25% South_Italian +25% Syrian @ 2.523737


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
    1 Abhkasian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Yemenite_Jewish @ 1.602631
    2 Georgian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Yemenite_Jewish @ 1.747437
    3 Armenian + Libyan_Jewish + Samaritan + South_Italian @ 2.131648
    4 Armenian + Samaritan + South_Italian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.231526
    5 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Samaritan + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.232773
    6 Armenian + Samaritan + Samaritan + Tuscan @ 2.322019
    7 Georgian_Jewish + Samaritan + Sephardic_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.386156
    8 Cyprian + Lebanese_Muslim + South_Italian + Syrian @ 2.425467
    9 Algerian_Jewish + Georgian_Jewish + Samaritan + South_Italian @ 2.435202
    10 Cyprian + Georgian_Jewish + Libyan_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.449262
    11 Armenian + East_Sicilian + Libyan_Jewish + Samaritan @ 2.457573
    12 Armenian + East_Sicilian + Samaritan + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.471877
    13 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Samaritan + South_Italian @ 2.491216
    14 Georgian_Jewish + Libyan_Jewish + Samaritan + South_Italian @ 2.502710
    15 Armenian + Cyprian + Libyan_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.518440
    16 Georgian_Jewish + Samaritan + South_Italian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.520324
    17 Cyprian + Cyprian + South_Italian + Syrian @ 2.523737
    18 Armenian + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.524360
    19 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Cyprian + Libyan_Jewish @ 2.563977
    20 Cyprian + Lebanese_Muslim + Lebanese_Muslim + South_Italian @ 2.572021





    It also goes the other way around though: These are 3 Sephardic Syrian kits with the same surname but they're closer to Sephardic than Cyprian and Levantine

    SJ4
     
    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 41.33
    2 West_Asian 17.61
    3 West_Med 16.40
    4 Red_Sea 10.75
    5 North_Atlantic 10.01
    6 East_Asian 1.22
    7 Northeast_African 1.03


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Tunisian_Jewish @ 7.217416
    2 Cyprian @ 7.238183
    3 Libyan_Jewish @ 8.533888
    4 Lebanese_Muslim @ 8.620125
    5 Sephardic_Jewish @ 9.517095
    6 Samaritan @ 9.994204
    7 Syrian @ 10.221199
    8 Lebanese_Christian @ 11.058386
    9 Palestinian @ 11.072740
    10 Italian_Jewish @ 11.320028
    11 Lebanese_Druze @ 11.345565
    12 Algerian_Jewish @ 11.951937
    13 Jordanian @ 11.997808
    14 South_Italian @ 15.644234
    15 Ashkenazi @ 15.712841
    16 Bedouin @ 16.649231
    17 Kurdish_Jewish @ 17.236572
    18 East_Sicilian @ 17.408501
    19 Iranian_Jewish @ 17.575592
    20 Assyrian @ 18.596094


    SJ5
     
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 34.72
    2 West_Med 17.06
    3 North_Atlantic 15.37
    4 West_Asian 15.00
    5 Red_Sea 7.71
    6 Baltic 6.21
    7 East_Asian 2.12


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Sephardic_Jewish @ 6.491810
    2 Ashkenazi @ 6.855063
    3 South_Italian @ 7.367496
    4 East_Sicilian @ 7.706678
    5 Italian_Jewish @ 8.168530
    6 Central_Greek @ 8.985998
    7 Algerian_Jewish @ 9.221042
    8 Tunisian_Jewish @ 10.116361
    9 Libyan_Jewish @ 11.206133
    10 Italian_Abruzzo @ 11.334724
    11 West_Sicilian @ 11.482709
    12 Cyprian @ 13.676986
    13 Greek_Thessaly @ 15.690112
    14 Lebanese_Muslim @ 16.153511
    15 Syrian @ 17.205423
    16 Tuscan @ 18.894814
    17 Jordanian @ 19.617207
    18 Palestinian @ 19.693720
    19 Samaritan @ 19.934744
    20 Turkish @ 20.242014



    SJ6

     
    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 41.12
    2 West_Med 17.64
    3 West_Asian 14.65
    4 North_Atlantic 12.24
    5 Red_Sea 6.80
    6 Baltic 4.46
    7 Sub-Saharan 1.34
    8 Siberian 1.18


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Sephardic_Jewish @ 7.110213
    2 Tunisian_Jewish @ 7.201044
    3 Italian_Jewish @ 7.378358
    4 Algerian_Jewish @ 8.448606
    5 Libyan_Jewish @ 8.922367
    6 Cyprian @ 9.329133
    7 Ashkenazi @ 10.409564
    8 South_Italian @ 11.837885
    9 East_Sicilian @ 13.518093
    10 Lebanese_Muslim @ 13.558032
    11 Central_Greek @ 14.780983
    12 Samaritan @ 14.894647
    13 Lebanese_Druze @ 14.939996
    14 Syrian @ 15.473333
    15 Lebanese_Christian @ 15.824739
    16 Palestinian @ 16.137386
    17 Jordanian @ 16.822706
    18 West_Sicilian @ 17.045326
    19 Italian_Abruzzo @ 17.812473
    20 Bedouin @ 21.045418
    Last edited by andyouare; 07-26-2020 at 03:13 PM.

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