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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #10251
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    Republic of Venice Italy Veneto Italy Tuscany Italy 1861-1946
    I assume her father is fully Jewish, and the closest samples is ItalyJew9, which I have a feeling is half Jewish half Italian.

    Distance to: Elena_scaled
    0.03466539 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9
    0.03529055 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.03548947 Italian_Apuliau3
    0.03683534 Greek_Crete:Crete7
    0.03730377 Maltese:Malta15AM91
    0.03739452 Italian_Campania:NaN212CR
    0.03765654 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew8

    I can put a ton of references but she still comes up as Ita Jews + GreeK-like
     

    Target: Elena_scaled
    Distance: 2.3412% / 0.02341167 | ADC: 0.25x
    49.8 Italian_Jew
    29.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    17.8 BGR_IA
    1.6 Sephardic_Jew
    1.2 Levant_PPNC
    0.0 Albanian
    0.0 Anatolia_Isparta_EBA
    0.0 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    0.0 Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA
    0.0 ARM_MBA
    0.0 Austrian
    0.0 BalkansBA_IA
    0.0 Basque_French
    0.0 BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA
    0.0 BGR_EBA
    0.0 BGR_MLBA
    0.0 CryptaBalbi_Late_Antiquity
    0.0 CryptaBalbi_Late_Antiquity_ITALIC_PROFILE
    0.0 Cypriot
    0.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    0.0 DEU_MA
    0.0 Dutch
    0.0 English
    0.0 FRA_IA_scaled_average
    0.0 French
    0.0 French_Corsica
    0.0 GEO_CHG
    0.0 German
    0.0 GRC_Mycenaean
    0.0 GRC_Peloponnese_N
    0.0 HRV_EBA
    0.0 Iberia_East_IA
    0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    0.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    0.0 ITA_Boville_Ernica_Latini_IA
    0.0 ITA_Collegno_MA_LANGOBARD
    0.0 ITA_Collegno_MA_NorthItalianProfile
    0.0 ITA_Etruscan
    0.0 ITA_Etruscan_o
    0.0 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N
    0.0 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
    0.0 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
    0.0 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
    0.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
    0.0 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
    0.0 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    0.0 ITA_Rome_MA
    0.0 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
    0.0 ITA_Sardinia_EBA
    0.0 ITA_Sardinia_ECA
    0.0 ITA_Sardinia_EMA
    0.0 ITA_Sardinia_LCA
    0.0 ITA_Sardinia_MA
    0.0 ITA_Sardinia_N
    0.0 ITA_Sardinia_Nuragic
    0.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
    0.0 ITA_Sardinia_Roman_Imperial
    0.0 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
    0.0 ITA_Villanovan
    0.0 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.0 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    0.0 Italian_Apulia
    0.0 Italian_Basilica
    0.0 Italian_Bergamo
    0.0 Italian_Calabria
    0.0 Italian_Campania
    0.0 Italian_Lazio
    0.0 Italian_Liguria
    0.0 Italian_Lombardy
    0.0 Italian_Marche
    0.0 Italian_Molise
    0.0 Italian_Northeast
    0.0 Italian_Piedmont
    0.0 Italian_South
    0.0 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.0 Italian_Tuscany
    0.0 Italian_Umbria
    0.0 Italian_Veneto
    0.0 ItalianCAMPTUS
    0.0 ItalianpuglTUS
    0.0 ItalianTUSCAL
    0.0 ItalianTUSSOUTH
    0.0 ITALIC_o
    0.0 ITALIC_scaled
    0.0 ITALY_IA_1
    0.0 ITALY_IA_2
    0.0 ITALY_IA_3
    0.0 ITALY_IA_o
    0.0 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.0 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA2
    0.0 Levant_Natufian
    0.0 Norwegian
    0.0 Romanian
    0.0 Russian_Kostroma
    0.0 Sardinian
    0.0 Sicilian_East
    0.0 Sicilian_West
    0.0 Spanish_Cataluna
    0.0 Spanish_Lleida
    0.0 Spanish_Navarra
    0.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
    0.0 Swedish
    0.0 Swiss_French
    0.0 Swiss_German
    0.0 Swiss_Italian
    0.0 Wales_CA_EBA
    0.0 WHG
    0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

     

    Target: Elena_scaled
    Distance: 2.2673% / 0.02267270
    28.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    26.6 Italian_Jew
    17.0 BGR_IA
    9.2 Levant_PPNC
    8.8 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
    4.2 ITA_Etruscan
    3.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.8 GRC_Peloponnese_N
    Last edited by Ariel90; 09-02-2020 at 11:37 PM.

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  3. #10252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    He's not dead, but I've never seen him.
    Has she spoken of his Jewish background?
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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  5. #10253
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Has she spoken of his Jewish background?
    In Italy people think that Judaism is a religion, and they are far less focused on race/ancestry that in the USA or elsewhere. I have Jewish and Israeli friends from work and she didn't say anything. She's not in great relationship with most of that side of the family, but I don't think that her father was religious even if they send her to some kind of Jewish middle school or after school of sort, but I'm going to ask her about that in time. I know some of her family like her aunt needs kosher food (but not the cousins), so I assume they might be somewhat religious.
    Last edited by Ariel90; 09-03-2020 at 12:40 AM.

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  7. #10254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    ItalyJew9, which I have a feeling is half Jewish half Italian.
    How did you suss this out? After looking at the Italian Jews, all I could see that one is likely fully Ashkenazi, one or two seemed near identical to Romaniotes (was guessing they could be full actual Italkim). I found it pretty hard to check for recent gentile Italian admixture in them, how could you tell in the case of ItalyJew9? I understand these Italian Jews are supposably of 'Sephardic' identity, but from looking at them, it seems they would have to be extracted from both Sephardic and Italki peoples since some also show significant enough North African (compared to their Romaniote ancestors) when modelling with MAR_Tarofalt.

    Also thanks for sharing your gf's coordinates, from the PCA's and results so far, I'm convinced enough she is what you say she is. Amazed there are still Myceneaean-like people such as Griko-Calabrians in the present day.

    When I'm finished with work I can look forward to playing with those coordinates.

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  9. #10255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    How did you suss this out? After looking at the Italian Jews, all I could see that one is likely fully Ashkenazi, one or two seemed near identical to Romaniotes (was guessing they could be full actual Italkim). I found it pretty hard to check for recent gentile Italian admixture in them, how could you tell in the case of ItalyJew9? I understand these Italian Jews are supposably of 'Sephardic' identity, but from looking at them, it seems they would have to be extracted from both Sephardic and Italki peoples since some also show significant enough North African (compared to their Romaniote ancestors) when modelling with MAR_Tarofalt.

    Also thanks for sharing your gf's coordinates, from the PCA's and results so far, I'm convinced enough she is what you say she is. Amazed there are still Myceneaean-like people such as Griko-Calabrians in the present day.

    When I'm finished with work I can look forward to playing with those coordinates.
    It's hard to tell for sure but I have feeling that some Italian Jews have more Italian than other Jews, could be 1/4 or 1/2 or deeper ancestry.


    Distance to: Italian_Lazio
    0.03770320 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew6
    0.04366531 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9
    0.04399696 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew8
    0.04668237 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.04945707 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24392
    0.05015671 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24032
    0.05023702 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew1
    0.05206991 Sephardic_Jew:GRC12118122
    0.05228559 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.05468330 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew7
    0.05502949 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10
    0.05749129 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew4953
    0.05883498 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew4
    0.05965506 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.06010197 Sephardic_Jew:sephardic14bul
    0.06151234 Sephardic_Jew:sephardic16bul
    0.06217590 Sephardic_Jew:GRC12118128
    0.06242407 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24402
    0.06565454 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5
    0.06599510 Sephardic_Jew:GRC12118097
    Last edited by Ariel90; 09-03-2020 at 01:22 AM.

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  11. #10256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    Very hesitant to share this but these are my gf results (Griko and Italkim)
    Holy shit, that's a lot of Empuries. Is there any hope of her getting any of her purely Griko relatives tested?

    EDIT: I see you're aiming to get her mom tested. Cool.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  13. #10257
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    Very low Iran, insanely low for where she clusters

     
    Distance to: IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.27512583 Italian_Jew
    0.27576048 Italian_Calabria
    0.27699545 Italian_South
    0.27938002 Italian_Campania
    0.27998658 Italian_Basilica
    0.28199819 Sicilian_East
    0.28250570 Italian_Apulia
    0.28334675 Italian_Molise
    0.28353148 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.28355100 Sicilian_West
    0.29137654 Italian_Umbria
    0.29198516 Italian_Lazio
    0.29248002 Italian_Marche
    0.29440356 Elena_scaled
    0.29800392 Italian_Tuscany
    0.30109825 Swiss_Italian
    0.30322515 Italian_Piedmont
    0.30736789 Italian_Liguria
    0.30981124 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    0.31155379 Italian_Veneto
    0.31158035 Italian_Northeast
    0.31204449 French_Corsica
    0.31350649 Italian_Lombardy
    0.31353200 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    0.31541435 Italian_Bergamo


    Very low Steppe

     
    Distance to: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    0.18446722 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    0.19244681 Italian_Northeast
    0.20282337 Italian_Veneto
    0.20283563 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.20316221 Swiss_Italian
    0.20769406 Italian_Liguria
    0.20783186 Italian_Piedmont
    0.21114364 Italian_Bergamo
    0.21269776 Italian_Tuscany
    0.21280323 Italian_Lombardy
    0.21677338 Italian_Umbria
    0.21685418 Italian_Marche
    0.21980993 Italian_Molise
    0.22166380 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.22300158 Italian_South
    0.22414444 Italian_Lazio
    0.22507290 French_Corsica
    0.22656878 Sicilian_West
    0.22680476 Italian_Basilica
    0.22794889 Italian_Apulia
    0.23111528 Italian_Campania
    0.23124131 Sicilian_East
    0.23692825 Italian_Calabria
    0.24598196 Italian_Jew
    0.25530794 Elena_scaled
    0.26874051 beria_Northeast_Empuries2


    Strong neolithic

     
    Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N
    0.08416624 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    0.10220605 Elena_scaled

    0.11293401 French_Corsica
    0.11782365 Italian_Lazio
    0.11808608 Italian_Calabria
    0.11892505 Italian_Campania
    0.11960654 Italian_Apulia
    0.12030137 Sicilian_East
    0.12044881 Italian_Jew
    0.12114845 Italian_Basilica
    0.12225304 Italian_Umbria
    0.12244600 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.12354935 Sicilian_West
    0.12372065 Italian_Marche
    0.12386530 Italian_Molise
    0.12488055 Italian_Tuscany
    0.12621850 Italian_South
    0.12763123 Italian_Lombardy
    0.12873672 Italian_Bergamo
    0.12993991 Italian_Piedmont
    0.13535659 Swiss_Italian
    0.13548155 Italian_Liguria
    0.13650046 Italian_Veneto
    0.13815951 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.14822879 Italian_Northeast
    0.15727742 Italian_Aosta_Valley

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  15. #10258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    It's hard to tell for sure but I have feeling that some Italian Jews have more Italian than other Jews, could be 1/4 or 1/2 or deeper ancestry.
    I think they all have 'deeper ancestry'. I'm guessing none are possibly half gentile Italian since from what I understand they come from the community in Rome and are of Sephardic identity. If one of them was half Lazio Italian, it would show noticeably in the models with Levant-Natufian and they all more or less get over 15% using the most common default model with ancient populations people use here. Even Sicilians rarely get above 10%. Unless an Italqi is mixed with a Southern Italian, it's pretty easy I think ruling out recent Italian admixture, so I'm pretty confident none are 50% Catholic Italian descent and somewhat certain none are 25%.
    Last edited by Seabass; 09-03-2020 at 01:56 AM.

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  17. #10259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I think they all have 'deeper ancestry'. I'm guessing none are possibly half gentile Italian since from what I understand they come from the community in Rome and are of Sephardic identity. If one of them was half Lazio Italian, it would show noticeably in the models with Levant-Natufian and they all more or less get over 15% using the most common default model with ancient populations people use here. Even Sicilians rarely get above 10%. Unless an Italqi is mixed with a Southern Italian, it's pretty easy I think ruling out recent Italian admixture, so I'm pretty confident none are 50% Catholic Italian descent and somewhat certain none are 25%.
    If those are Sephardi it's possible that Italian Jews are somewhat different and we have no idea how they are really.

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  19. #10260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    If those are Sephardi it's possible that Italian Jews are somewhat different and we have no idea how they are really.
    I've long thought these 'Italian Jewish' samples have both Italqi and Sephardic ancestry, but going off these coordinates you provided, I'm thinking perhaps those 'Italian Jews' may even be more Italqi than I thought. No MAR_Tarofalt scored as well for her, which all Romaniotes (direct ancestral donors to Italqi) save for one also score 0 using that model. I guess going from the below Italqim are very likely near identical to Sephardic Italians and other Eastern Sephardim. Despite being descended from Romaniotes, 50% Romaniote doesn't seem to work.

    Griko-Italqi.jpg
    Last edited by Seabass; 09-03-2020 at 09:50 AM.

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