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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #10261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    Very hesitant to share this but these are my gf results (Griko and Italkim)

    Target: Elena_scaled
    Distance: 2.5296% / 0.02529625
    43.0 Italian_Jew
    42.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    14.4 Italian_Lazio
    0.0 French_Corsica
    0.0 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.0 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    0.0 Italian_Apulia
    0.0 Italian_Basilica
    0.0 Italian_Bergamo
    0.0 Italian_Calabria
    0.0 Italian_Campania
    0.0 Italian_Liguria
    0.0 Italian_Lombardy
    0.0 Italian_Marche
    0.0 Italian_Molise
    0.0 Italian_Piedmont
    0.0 Italian_Tuscany
    0.0 Italian_Umbria
    0.0 Italian_Veneto
    0.0 Sicilian_East
    0.0 Sicilian_West


    Without Empuries (+0,77 dist)

    Target: Elena_scaled
    Distance: 3.2901% / 0.03290051
    68.0 Italian_Jew
    17.4 Italian_Lazio
    10.8 French_Corsica
    3.8 Italian_Apulia

    Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    0.03866787 Elena_scaled
    0.04714360 Italian_Apulia
    0.04753993 Italian_Campania
    0.04803565 Italian_Calabria
    0.04981762 Italian_Basilica

    Distance to: GRC_Peloponnese_N
    0.07906802 Sardinian
    0.08357859 Elena_scaled
    0.09839449 Italian_Calabria
    0.10061578 Italian_Campania
    0.10066270 Italian_Jew
    0.10213989 Italian_Apulia
    0.10340794 Sicilian_East
    0.10353592 Italian_Basilica



    I'm going to 23andme her mother in the future
    I am looking forward to see her mother's results. Till then it would be useful if someone subtract 50% Italian Jew reference from her to get a proxy for her Griko ancestry.

  2. #10262
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    I have a question refered to Sephardic jewish genetic.

    I have searching articles about jewish diaspora and how some of them arrived to Hispania. The theory most accepted is they arrived between destruction of the Second Temple and Second Jewish–Roman War (or called also Bar Kokhba revolt); there are also some testimonials that show an influx of jews after Babilonia conquest of Jerusalem, althought sometimes, these stories specifically are adorned with legendaries connotations.

    In this thread, I have read (if my memory don't fail) that Sefaradim could have a common origin with Ashkenazim, I mean, when they went out of Judea then arrived to Italy, where they could have mixed with native population, and finally a group stayed in Italia, and other went to Hispania. It's correct this theory? In my 23andMe results for example, I receive italian (keeping in 90% confidence, so I don't consider it noise), however I can't triangulate with italian matches between them, as I have done with spanish, central and south american, and jewish matches, even I have could triangulate matches with subsaharian ancestry. So, if this idea is correct, I can suppose this italian percentage could be by sephardic heritage, or even ancient heritage came from roman period of Iberia.
    23andMe: 99.4% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.3% Trace Ancestry (0.3% Nigerian)

    My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish, Sccotish and Welsh

  3. #10263
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    I have G25 coordinates for my grandmother who is :
    50% Catholic French
    25% Judaeo-Provençal
    This is a Jewish community that stayed exclusively in the Papal enclave around Avignon between the 14th and 18th century, surnames indicate that they derive from the medieval communities of Provence and coastal Languedoc as well as some elements of post-1431 Sephardic diaspora. They spoke Shuadit. Some extensive genealogical work has been done on the community and it looks like no unmixed individuals are left.
    18.75% Yeke (Alsace, Lorraine, Saarland and Netherlands)
    6.25% Litvak (Northern Lithuania)

    I am not too sure where to go on from there, especially to disentangle the Judaeo-Provencal particularities from her overall profile. Although I assume it might be an interesting population to study as it provides an interesting snapshot of Jewish populations that have been settled in Southern France since the Roman era. Do you have suggestions on how to make the most of her sample, and to what extent it may provide additional information on Jewish history?

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  5. #10264
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    Quote Originally Posted by loxias View Post
    I have G25 coordinates for my grandmother who is :
    50% Catholic French
    25% Judaeo-Provençal
    This is a Jewish community that stayed exclusively in the Papal enclave around Avignon between the 14th and 18th century, surnames indicate that they derive from the medieval communities of Provence and coastal Languedoc as well as some elements of post-1431 Sephardic diaspora. They spoke Shuadit. Some extensive genealogical work has been done on the community and it looks like no unmixed individuals are left.
    18.75% Yeke (Alsace, Lorraine, Saarland and Netherlands)
    6.25% Litvak (Northern Lithuania)

    I am not too sure where to go on from there, especially to disentangle the Judaeo-Provencal particularities from her overall profile. Although I assume it might be an interesting population to study as it provides an interesting snapshot of Jewish populations that have been settled in Southern France since the Roman era. Do you have suggestions on how to make the most of her sample, and to what extent it may provide additional information on Jewish history?
    Which of her grandparents was Judeo-Provencal?
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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  7. #10265
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    Maternal grandfather (needless to say him and his daughter passed away before genetic testing was a thing), our whole genealogy on his branch is complete and detailed up til the 1680s in general.
    Last edited by loxias; 09-14-2020 at 07:57 PM.

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  9. #10266
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    Quote Originally Posted by rober_tce View Post
    I have a question refered to Sephardic jewish genetic.

    I have searching articles about jewish diaspora and how some of them arrived to Hispania. The theory most accepted is they arrived between destruction of the Second Temple and Second Jewish–Roman War (or called also Bar Kokhba revolt); there are also some testimonials that show an influx of jews after Babilonia conquest of Jerusalem, althought sometimes, these stories specifically are adorned with legendaries connotations.

    In this thread, I have read (if my memory don't fail) that Sefaradim could have a common origin with Ashkenazim, I mean, when they went out of Judea then arrived to Italy, where they could have mixed with native population, and finally a group stayed in Italia, and other went to Hispania. It's correct this theory? In my 23andMe results for example, I receive italian (keeping in 90% confidence, so I don't consider it noise), however I can't triangulate with italian matches between them, as I have done with spanish, central and south american, and jewish matches, even I have could triangulate matches with subsaharian ancestry. So, if this idea is correct, I can suppose this italian percentage could be by sephardic heritage, or even ancient heritage came from roman period of Iberia.
    Do you have Italian matches too? I have 3 Full South Italian matches on 23andme. Are your Italian matches from South Italy too?
    23andme 5.9: 86,8% Eastern European, 9,1% Greek and Balkan, 0.3% Spanish and Portuguese, 1,2% Anatolian, 0,7% Ashkenazi Jewish, 1,4% Broadly Southern European, 0,5% Broadly European

    G25

    Distance: 1.8082% / 0.01808160
    Target: Cyryl_scaled | ADC: 0.25x RC
    85.3 East_Europe
    7.4 Southeast_Europe
    5.0 Sephardic
    2.3 Asia_Minor



    Ancestry: 68,75% Polish settlers in Ukraine, 12,5% Northern Russian, 12,5% Alfatar Bulgarian ( + Sephardic ancestry ) , 6,25% Kuban Cossack

  10. #10267
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    Quote Originally Posted by rober_tce View Post
    I have a question refered to Sephardic jewish genetic.

    I have searching articles about jewish diaspora and how some of them arrived to Hispania. The theory most accepted is they arrived between destruction of the Second Temple and Second Jewish–Roman War (or called also Bar Kokhba revolt); there are also some testimonials that show an influx of jews after Babilonia conquest of Jerusalem, althought sometimes, these stories specifically are adorned with legendaries connotations.

    In this thread, I have read (if my memory don't fail) that Sefaradim could have a common origin with Ashkenazim, I mean, when they went out of Judea then arrived to Italy, where they could have mixed with native population, and finally a group stayed in Italia, and other went to Hispania. It's correct this theory? In my 23andMe results for example, I receive italian (keeping in 90% confidence, so I don't consider it noise), however I can't triangulate with italian matches between them, as I have done with spanish, central and south american, and jewish matches, even I have could triangulate matches with subsaharian ancestry. So, if this idea is correct, I can suppose this italian percentage could be by sephardic heritage, or even ancient heritage came from roman period of Iberia.
    AFAIK there is no actual archaeological or contemporary written evidence of Jews inhabiting the Iberian peninsula before the 2nd century CE. Given that the earliest archaeological evidence is concentrated in the Southeastern part of the peninsula, it seems likely, from what I've read, that the first Jews arrived in Iberia both from North Africa through the Strait of Gibraltar and over sea from the Italian Islands and perhaps directly from the Italic Peninsula. However, nobody really knows how much genetic continuity there was between these early Jewish populations and the Medieval Jewish communities of Al Andalus, since there was undoubtedly a great deal of Jewish migration to (and out of) the peninsula over the centuries between the Visigothic period and the Reconquista, with newcomers coming from many locations: definitely from North Africa and France, probably also from Italy and even from locations as far as Persia.

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  12. #10268
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyrylBojarski View Post
    Do you have Italian matches too? I have 3 Full South Italian matches on 23andme. Are your Italian matches from South Italy too?
    In my case, I have found only a completely italian match, then I have a match 1/2 brazilian 1/2 italian. There is another theoric italian match which have same proportion of italian and B&I. As I said, I haven't could triangulate any italian match: first and third matches described are in same chromosome, even it seems that they are in same position, but they don't triangulate with me and between them... if these matches are real (I think so), a possible explanation could be there are few italian tester in 23andMe: I have noticed there are many North, Central and South Americans testers in comparison with spanish, portuguese or italian. But in opposite of it, in 90% confidence my italian percentage still appears. So, I suspect that italian percentage can indicate since an ancient roman ancestry to a medieval or 16th century that migrated to modern Kingdom of Granada (after conquest of Emirate of Granada). By this reason I asked before about sephardic hypothesis.
    Last edited by rober_tce; 09-15-2020 at 12:09 AM.
    23andMe: 99.4% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.3% Trace Ancestry (0.3% Nigerian)

    My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish, Sccotish and Welsh

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  14. #10269
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    AFAIK there is no actual archaeological or contemporary written evidence of Jews inhabiting the Iberian peninsula before the 2nd century CE. Given that the earliest archaeological evidence is concentrated in the Southeastern part of the peninsula, it seems likely, from what I've read, that the first Jews arrived in Iberia both from North Africa through the Strait of Gibraltar and over sea from the Italian Islands and perhaps directly from the Italic Peninsula. However, nobody really knows how much genetic continuity there was between these early Jewish populations and the Medieval Jewish communities of Al Andalus, since there was undoubtedly a great deal of Jewish migration to (and out of) the peninsula over the centuries between the Visigothic period and the Reconquista, with newcomers coming from many locations: definitely from North Africa and France, probably also from Italy and even from locations as far as Persia.
    Thanks for your explanation.

    The babilonian diaspora hypothesis it seems me also a bit legendary more a real posibility, I have read that some rabbi in al-Andalus as the granadine Moshe Ben Ezra, who lived in 11th century, talked with much security about an entry of jews of Benjamin and Yehuda tribes after babilonian conquest of Jerusalem, but it was a form to legitimate the nobility of jewish people living in Sefarad. I think the official jewish entry in Iberia was after second Jewish-Roman War.

    So it seems jewish entry in Iberia was more complex, and with them, new roman elements could have been introduced again. Maybe some 23andMe iberian results with jewish ancestry can be reflected with italian item, in addition of course with Ashkenazi Jewish, and this is one of the hypothesis that I have about my results, because italian percentage seems legitime.

    I want to buy a book called "History of the Jews" of Simon Schama, which have two parts, I hope this book would be useful and clarifier.
    Last edited by rober_tce; 09-15-2020 at 12:39 AM.
    23andMe: 99.4% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.3% Trace Ancestry (0.3% Nigerian)

    My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish, Sccotish and Welsh

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  16. #10270
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    Quote Originally Posted by rober_tce View Post
    Thanks for your explanation.

    The babilonian diaspora hypothesis it seems me also a bit legendary more a real posibility, I have read that some rabbi in al-Andalus as the granadine Moshe Ben Ezra, who lived in 11th century, talked with much security about an entry of jews of Benjamin and Yehuda tribes after babilonian conquest of Jerusalem, but it was a form to legitimate the nobility of jewish people living in Sefarad. I think the official jewish entry in Iberia was after second Jewish-Roman War.

    So it seems jewish entry in Iberia was more complex, and with them, new roman elements could have been introduced again. Maybe some 23andMe iberian results with jewish ancestry can be reflected with italian item, in addition of course with Ashkenazi Jewish, and this is one of the hypothesis that I have about my results, because italian percentage seems legitime.

    I want to buy a book called "History of the Jews" of Simon Schama, which have two parts, I hope this book would be useful and clarifier.
    Yeah, I wouldn't trust some of the Medieval and Early Modern Jewish origin stories. A lot of them are pretty fanciful. Not to say that archaeological proof is everything. There's always the possibility that there were Jews in Iberia and North Africa earlier than the evidence suggests, but at this point we can only be sure of their presence during the late Roman Empire.

    It seems perfectly logical to me that part of your Jewish ancestry would appear as Italian in some ethnicity estimates. However, Iberians in general clearly show Italian percentages for other reasons, so I'm not sure how you could pinpoint a Jewish source. It would seem to me that whatever Italian matches you turn up would be due to Sephardim who left the peninsula for Italy, rather than the other way around.

    I haven't read Schama's Story of the Jews, but I've seen the documentary series, which you can watch on dailymotion.com. Somehow I doubt that the books will have very detailed information about the early formation of Iberian Jewry, but I'm sure they give a good overview of Jewish history in general.

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