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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #10271
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Yeah, I wouldn't trust some of the Medieval and Early Modern Jewish origin stories. A lot of them are pretty fanciful. Not to say that archaeological proof is everything. There's always the possibility that there were Jews in Iberia and North Africa earlier than the evidence suggests, but at this point we can only be sure of their presence during the late Roman Empire.

    It seems perfectly logical to me that part of your Jewish ancestry would appear as Italian in some ethnicity estimates. However, Iberians in general clearly show Italian percentages for other reasons, so I'm not sure how you could pinpoint a Jewish source. It would seem to me that whatever Italian matches you turn up would be due to Sephardim who left the peninsula for Italy, rather than the other way around.

    I haven't read Schama's Story of the Jews, but I've seen the documentary series, which you can watch on dailymotion.com. Somehow I doubt that the books will have very detailed information about the early formation of Iberian Jewry, but I'm sure they give a good overview of Jewish history in general.
    Agree with you. In fact I think this italian component reflected is ancient, maybe roman or medieval, not recent, and is a average value between others south iberians as I have verified now, very possible in my opinion as ancient aportation of roman period. Thanks again.
    Last edited by rober_tce; 09-15-2020 at 09:19 AM.
    23andMe: 99.4% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.3% Trace Ancestry (0.3% Nigerian)

    My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish, Sccotish and Welsh

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  3. #10272
    Quote Originally Posted by loxias View Post
    I have G25 coordinates for my grandmother who is :
    50% Catholic French
    25% Judaeo-Provençal
    This is a Jewish community that stayed exclusively in the Papal enclave around Avignon between the 14th and 18th century, surnames indicate that they derive from the medieval communities of Provence and coastal Languedoc as well as some elements of post-1431 Sephardic diaspora. They spoke Shuadit. Some extensive genealogical work has been done on the community and it looks like no unmixed individuals are left.
    18.75% Yeke (Alsace, Lorraine, Saarland and Netherlands)
    6.25% Litvak (Northern Lithuania)

    I am not too sure where to go on from there, especially to disentangle the Judaeo-Provencal particularities from her overall profile. Although I assume it might be an interesting population to study as it provides an interesting snapshot of Jewish populations that have been settled in Southern France since the Roman era. Do you have suggestions on how to make the most of her sample, and to what extent it may provide additional information on Jewish history?
    What are her G25 coordinates?

  4. #10273
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    שנה טובה ומתוקה אחים יקרים

    אני מקווה שתהיה הרבה פחות בעייתית והרבה יותר מלאה במחקרים חדשים ודגימות דנ"א קדומות
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


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  6. #10274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    שנה טובה ומתוקה אחים יקרים

    והרבה יותר מלאה במחקרים חדשים ודגימות דנ"א קדומות
    אמן! נו, הבטחת לנו
    The clock indicates the moment—but what does eternity indicate?

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  8. #10275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    שנה טובה ומתוקה אחים יקרים

    אני מקווה שתהיה הרבה פחות בעייתית והרבה יותר מלאה במחקרים חדשים ודגימות דנ"א קדומות
    !!בוא הביתה
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    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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  10. #10276
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    שנה טובה לאכם
    (my Hebrew is limited to some old duolingo lessons, hope I am not too far off)
    Quote Originally Posted by chocoholic View Post
    What are her G25 coordinates?
    Yes, here are hers :
     
    loxias-grandma_scaled,0.114961,0.141159,0.018102,-0.012597,0.02185,-0.006136,-0.00235,-0.001154,0.008385,0.014032,0.00341,0.007343,-0.005798,0.000138,0.005836,-0.007292,-0.015516,0.005321,-0.001131,-0.001751,-0.001747,0.007419,0.000246,0.005543,-0.002155

    loxias-grandma,0.0101,0.0139,0.0048,-0.0039,0.0071,-0.0022,-0.001,-0.0005,0.0041,0.0077,0.0021,0.0049,-0.0039,0.0001,0.0043,-0.0055,-0.0119,0.0042,-0.0009,-0.0014,-0.0014,0.006,0.0002,0.0046,-0.0018


    Now, my grandmother never knew her father, and only recently have I managed to trace her paternal ancestry, her father it turns out was from NW France (50% Anjou, 50% Normandy based on his paper trail, which 23andme confirms, the only French regions that light up for her are Normandy, Brittany and Pays-de-la-Loire).
    I've tried to create a ghost of her dad using the G25 coordinates of various individual French samples and trying to make sure she was half that, half miscellanious Jewish/East Med populations. The process isn't perfect and the ghost of her father is a bit too Southern for my liking. But here is the resulting ghost of her Jewish mother (I only made a scaled one).

     
    loxias-ggma_scaled,0.101325,0.144019,-0.017751,-0.051923,0.005140,-0.020325,-0.003594,-0.005573,0.008930,0.013623,0.009487,0.004923,0.004 821,0.006549,-0.003199,-0.014039,-0.019720,0.007084,-0.002156,-0.003435,-0.006641,0.010602,0.001908,0.000329,-0.004294
    Last edited by loxias; 09-19-2020 at 08:32 PM.

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  12. #10277
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    Quote Originally Posted by loxias View Post
    Yes, here are hers :
    Distance to: loxias-grandma_scaled
    0.04109043 French_Corsica
    0.04207921 French_Provence
    0.04778632 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.04887668 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.05042360 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.05110701 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.05369039 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.05405896 French_Auvergne
    0.05782122 French_Occitanie
    0.05833631 French_Alsace
    0.06155851 French_Nord
    0.06275940 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.06343981 French_Jew:ashkenazy4w
    0.06344765 French_Paris
    0.06588104 French_Seine-Maritime
    0.06797789 French_South
    0.07024283 French_Pas-de-Calais
    0.07188122 Italian_Jew_Removed_AJ_Outlier
    0.07895282 French_Brittany
    Modelled very well as 50% French, 50% Western Jewish.

    Target: loxias-grandma_scaled
    Distance: 1.8529% / 0.01852884
    34.8 French_Seine-Maritime
    31.6 Italian_Jew_Removed_AJ_Outlier
    15.0 Ashkenazi_Poland
    7.4 French_Occitanie
    7.0 French_Brittany
    4.2 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    The coordinates of the great grandmother, if you can trust that they are close to the truth, suggest the Judaeo-Provençal ancestor may have been very close to not just French_Jew_ashkenazy4w, but also Ashkenazi Germans and some Italian Jews.

    Loxias_grandma.JPG

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  14. #10278
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    Thanks, I guess that makes a lot of sense based on their geographical position. This would imply that the Western European ancestry in Ashkenazi was acquired before they reached the Rhineland, then. Unless she’s a bit depleted for that compared to pure French and German Ashkenazim.
    On a side note I am surprised she gets no Taforalt. I had always assumed the consistant small North African signal I get had come from her.

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  16. #10279
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    Quote Originally Posted by loxias View Post
    Thanks, I guess that makes a lot of sense based on their geographical position. This would imply that the Western European ancestry in Ashkenazi was acquired before they reached the Rhineland, then. Unless she’s a bit depleted for that compared to pure French and German Ashkenazim.
    On a side note I am surprised she gets no Taforalt. I had always assumed the consistant small North African signal I get had come from her.
    It's genuinely hard to tease apart the shares of Western European ancestry among Ashkenazim, between West German, northern/eastern French, Occitano-Provençal, and northern Italian strains. Suffice it to say, though, there's clear uniparental evidence of admixture in the Rhineland and nearby (the two R-U152 branches R-L408 and R-BY187600 both seem to be cases of this).
    Last edited by hartaisarlag; 09-20-2020 at 06:47 AM.
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  18. #10280
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    Quote Originally Posted by loxias View Post
    On a side note I am surprised she gets no Taforalt. I had always assumed the consistant small North African signal I get had come from her.
    It stuck out to me, but it's not too unusual. Only 1 out of 7 Romaniotes score it and 5 out of 10 Italian Jews do. Some individual Ashkenazi Jews do not score some too. I think every Eastern Sephardic Jew and North African Jew scores some though. With that model, modern North African group averages score between 20-40 Tarofalt. Much else of what they score is Barcin, Yamnaya, Natufian and Yoruba so it's possibly being hidden in one of those, but realistically your grandma would just have trace North African like most other non-Sephardic/North African Western Jews.

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