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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #10571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    What do you make of your fathers slightly more Northern drift? I wish I had both maternal grandparents of mine tested, they looked complete polar opposite to one another but for all I know may cluster very tightly together. I remember you posted some gedmatch results of some Donmeh's, who plotted no different at all to other Turkish Jews. Your friend is not Donmeh?
    I don't know if my dad is more northern drifted, in gedmatch he was closer to south italian populations whereas my mother needed some 10% Caucasian extra. But we have some south italian surnames among our relatives. This vahaduo Europe map looks a bit different from Past3 PCA maps, such as some Kos, Crete and Campania look very close to each other. I see my dad more Italian/Greek shifted. Since both are from Istanbul at least for a few generations they might have more Romaniote component too.

    My friend is not Donmeh,regular Istanbuli Jew, mother side from Turkish Thrace. BTW the Turkish Jews never called, call or consider the Donmeh as Jews and they themselves neither (it is a very sensitive subject getting only a bit relaxed in my generation). But perhaps i can ask some of them to give me their raw data, this is the most difficult step because people are reluctant to do it.

    Here are our G25 coordinates (scaled): enjoy.

    eolien_scaled,0.089920,0.145221,-0.023004,-0.052649,0.006463,-0.0200801,-0.004935,-0.008307,0.007976,0.015672,0.001137,0.002098,-0.000892,0.001789,-0.003393,-0.014187,-0.0146030,0.004054,-0.000503,-0.002126,0.002246,-0.001978,0.008134,-0.0057840,0.001317

    eolien_dad_scaled,0.094473,0.135065,-0.01697,-0.052326,0.013849,-0.022311,-0.00658,-0.005077,0.006749,0.020046,0.00065,0.001948,0.0013 38,-0.000413,-0.008279,0.002387,0.002608,0.002534,-0.00088,-5e-04,-0.001747,0.003833,-0.000986,-0.006266,0.001796

    eolien_mom_scaled,0.091058,0.151314,-0.024136,-0.060401,0.001539,-0.013387,-0.005875,-0.004846,0.006749,0.014214,0.003085,0.002847,-0.002973,-0.001651,0.000679,-0.002387,-0.001304,-0.003294,-0.001508,-0.005503,0.000749,-0.000989,0.012941,0.006266,0.002275

    eolien_IG,0.100164,0.146236,-0.018479,-0.059755,0.006463,-0.022032,-0.004935,-0.005538,0.009408,0.022597,0.001299,0.001049,0.001 933,-0.00055,-0.009636,0.006762,0.003129,0.001267,-0.000754,-0.006753,-0.003244,0.000866,-0.000246,-0.000482,0.005868

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  3. #10572
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    Scotland England Australia Star of David Turkey Egypt
    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    I don't know if my dad is more northern drifted, in gedmatch he was closer to south italian populations whereas my mother needed some 10% Caucasian extra. But we have some south italian surnames among our relatives. This vahaduo Europe map looks a bit different from Past3 PCA maps, such as some Kos, Crete and Campania look very close to each other. I see my dad more Italian/Greek shifted. Since both are from Istanbul at least for a few generations they might have more Romaniote component too.

    My friend is not Donmeh,regular Istanbuli Jew, mother side from Turkish Thrace. BTW the Turkish Jews never called, call or consider the Donmeh as Jews and they themselves neither (it is a very sensitive subject getting only a bit relaxed in my generation). But perhaps i can ask some of them to give me their raw data, this is the most difficult step because people are reluctant to do it.

    Here are our G25 coordinates (scaled): enjoy.

    eolien_scaled,0.089920,0.145221,-0.023004,-0.052649,0.006463,-0.0200801,-0.004935,-0.008307,0.007976,0.015672,0.001137,0.002098,-0.000892,0.001789,-0.003393,-0.014187,-0.0146030,0.004054,-0.000503,-0.002126,0.002246,-0.001978,0.008134,-0.0057840,0.001317

    eolien_dad_scaled,0.094473,0.135065,-0.01697,-0.052326,0.013849,-0.022311,-0.00658,-0.005077,0.006749,0.020046,0.00065,0.001948,0.0013 38,-0.000413,-0.008279,0.002387,0.002608,0.002534,-0.00088,-5e-04,-0.001747,0.003833,-0.000986,-0.006266,0.001796

    eolien_mom_scaled,0.091058,0.151314,-0.024136,-0.060401,0.001539,-0.013387,-0.005875,-0.004846,0.006749,0.014214,0.003085,0.002847,-0.002973,-0.001651,0.000679,-0.002387,-0.001304,-0.003294,-0.001508,-0.005503,0.000749,-0.000989,0.012941,0.006266,0.002275

    eolien_IG,0.100164,0.146236,-0.018479,-0.059755,0.006463,-0.022032,-0.004935,-0.005538,0.009408,0.022597,0.001299,0.001049,0.001 933,-0.00055,-0.009636,0.006762,0.003129,0.001267,-0.000754,-0.006753,-0.003244,0.000866,-0.000246,-0.000482,0.005868
    Legend! Santa is not just from Turkey, santa is apparently a Jew too! Besides the Turkish Jews in G25, there is now 4 you've contributed, my mum and also Sam1989. That means there is probably over 10 to play with now when you cancel out the Bulgarian Jews. If I see anything interesting I'll post it in the Sephardic thread. I wish there was a collection of those outside Turkey.
    Last edited by Seabass; 12-25-2020 at 12:40 AM.

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  5. #10573
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    Israel Jerusalem
    New article by Shlomo Sand: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.pre...obia-1.9326080

    Secondly, the Jews were never foreign to Europe and did not arrive there from the outside. They have always been authentic natives of the Continent, who at some point or another accepted the Jewish religion. It is not by chance that not one research study has ever dealt with the exile or migration of “the Jewish people.”
    The population of the Kingdom of Judah, the vast majority of whom were hardscrabble farmers, never sailed to the other side of the Mediterranean in order to live in the “terrible exile.” The exile or migration of the Judeans originated as a hostile Christian myth.
    “the Jew has always been a people with definite racial characteristics and never a religion” and therefore Jews could never be counted among those with Aryan blood (DNA had yet to be discovered then).
    Shlomo Sand seems to think DNA vindicates him.

    Can't wait to read this:

    In my book “An Imaginary Race – A Short History of Judeophobia” (in Hebrew)
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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  7. #10574
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    Sand's work had been disproved genetically, but this doesn't seem to matter to him!

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  9. #10575
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    I have very very briefly skimmed through this mega thread. The different admixture theories and the theory that Ashkenazim are initially from the Levant is fully supported by my TOLAN K71 results (I am 97.5% Ashkenazi, according to MH). Ignore the small % ethnicities. The ones over 5% are significant and perfectly match the different theses of Ashkenazi origins suggested on here.

    results chart.jpg

    My top (relevant, not just noise ethnicities)


    65-Levant 24.02%
    12-Sicily_Italia 20.38%
    20-Crete_Greece 15.73%
    49-Spain 5.83%
    48-Baleares 4.99%
    50-Portugal 3.37%
    18-Thrace_Greece 2.65%
    47-Basque 2.03%

    Written results in full:


    Component %
    1-Sweden 0.10%
    2-Denmark 0.46%
    3-North_Poland 0.06%
    4-Poland_Sudovia 0.44%
    5-Belgium 0.57%
    6-Piedmont_Italia 1.67%
    7-Venezio_Italia 0.10%
    8-Tuscany_Italia 0.78%
    9-Lazio_Italia 0.84%
    10-Apulia_Italia 1.53%
    11-Corsica_France 0.60%
    12-Sicily_Italia 20.38%
    14-Canary 0.09%
    15-Bulgaria 0.31%
    16-Montenegro 1.29%
    17-Albania 0.54%
    18-Thrace_Greece 2.65%
    19-Peloponnes_Greece 1.70%
    20-Crete_Greece 15.73%
    21-Tyrol_Austria 0.03%
    22-Slovakia 0.04%
    23-Hungary 0.11%
    24-Finland_SW 0.91%
    25-Saami 0.71%
    26-Karelia 0.01%
    27-Norway_north 0.24%
    28-Estonian 0.03%
    29-Belarusia_East 0.02%
    30-Germany_East 0.08%
    31-Ukraine_West 0.01%
    32-Russia_Kursk 0.02%
    35-Ireland 0.05%
    36-SW-England 0.04%
    37-Croatia 0.20%
    38-Serbia 0.11%
    39-Romania 0.16%
    40-North-Germany 0.05%
    41-South-Germany 0.37%
    42-West-Brittany 0.22%
    43-Rhone-Alpes 0.56%
    44-Armorica 0.08%
    45-Cotentin 0.30%
    46-SW_France 0.01%
    47-Basque 2.03%
    48-Baleares 4.99%
    49-Spain 5.83%
    50-Portugal 3.37%
    51-NE-England 0.91%
    52-Netherlands 0.11%
    53-Norway 0.06%
    54-Orcadia 0.05%
    55-Amerindian 0.20%
    56-Arabia 0.21%
    58-Caucasus 0.41%
    64-Turkey 1.24%
    65-Levant 24.02%
    67-Oceania 0.08%
    69-Siberia 1.32%
    71-Iran&Assyria 0.96%

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  11. #10576
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    Polish–LithuanianCommonwealth Bulgaria Russian Federation Byzantine Empire Israel Russia Imperial
    Is it possible Ashkenazi Jews are about 70% West Asian and 30% Northern European without Iron Age Italian and Aegean admixture? Ashkenazi samples are modelled better without it with additional NW European references with much lower distance

    Code:
    Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    Distance: 0.9886% / 0.00988618
    69.6	Middle_Eastern
    20.2	German
    10.2	Polish
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
    Distance: 1.2782% / 0.01278225
    68.4	Middle_Eastern
    20.4	German
    11.2	Polish
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
    Distance: 0.8923% / 0.00892322
    72.0	Middle_Eastern
    18.4	German
    9.6	Polish
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    Distance: 1.0825% / 0.01082464
    69.0	Middle_Eastern
    20.4	German
    10.6	Polish
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
    Distance: 0.5364% / 0.00536382
    76.8	Middle_Eastern
    23.2	German
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    Distance: 0.9304% / 0.00930352
    68.2	Middle_Eastern
    25.4	German
    6.4	Polish
    I use this model
    Code:
    Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:Levant_Beirut_ERoman,0.0859368,0.1406508,-0.0576052,-0.0909245,-0.0153875,-0.0312358,-0.0051112,-0.005596,0.007465,0.010524,0.0064958,-0.0090293,0.0178392,-0.0026492,-0.0099752,0.0170377,0.0113435,-0.0044975,0.0018855,0.0016572,0.0022772,0.0048845,-0.0008625,0.0039462,-0.0029638
    Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic,0.064879,0.147252,-0.060339,-0.0809115,-0.0063085,-0.029144,-0.0024675,-0.013615,0.0018405,0.0059225,0.005115,-0.0006745,0.0079535,0.0033715,-0.012283,-0.002718,-0.00665,0.0012035,0.009867,-0.012944,0.0034315,0.004637,-0.0057925,-0.002109,-0.005688
    Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:Levant_LBN_Roman,0.0887823,0.1447132,-0.0554368,-0.085595,-0.0116175,-0.0282378,-0.0074612,-0.0076152,0.0076698,0.0121642,0.0031262,-0.01139,0.0130822,-0.0017893,-0.0105862,0.0093475,0.002673,-0.0006652,0.0025138,0.0022512,0.000655,0.0059042,-0.0035742,0.0001205,-0.005299
    Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR42,0.079676,0.149283,-0.061094,-0.091409,-0.011079,-0.028168,-0.003525,-0.010153,0.01309,0.010023,0.006171,-0.002548,0.01219,0.004266,-0.009229,0.007292,-0.001173,0.002027,0.004399,0.001251,-0.001248,0.008285,0.001849,0,-0.001916
    Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR70,0.09675,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.085595,-0.009232,-0.023706,-0.004465,-0.007615,0.010431,0.00656,0.004547,-0.003747,0.0055,-0.002064,-0.009772,-0.00053,0.00352,-0.00152,0.001383,0.004252,-0.010357,0.007048,0,-0.006025,0.002874
    Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1547,0.080814,0.151314,-0.058831,-0.084626,-0.016003,-0.033746,-0.00517,-0.006923,0.011249,0.015126,0.000812,0.001199,0.009812,0.00234,-0.004479,-0.001724,0.005346,0.006208,-0.006285,0.002376,0.001248,0.008408,-0.001356,-0.004338,-0.010059
    Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1550,0.084229,0.140143,-0.047517,-0.074613,-0.012925,-0.026216,-0.0094,-0.007154,0.014112,0.005467,-0.000974,-0.002698,0.008622,-0.008257,0.001086,0.014983,0.014864,0.004814,-0.009302,0.002876,-0.001872,0.006183,0.004683,0.000843,-0.001676
    Middle_Eastern:Mesopotamian:Possible_Mesopotamian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR67,0.080814,0.136081,-0.05506,-0.061047,-0.022466,-0.013666,0.00564,-0.008769,-0.014112,-0.007654,0.010068,-0.002698,0.008474,-0.002064,-0.01045,0.013922,0.008736,0.002534,-0.00176,-0.002001,-0.000873,-0.005812,0.005423,-0.002048,0.011137
    Middle_Eastern:Possible_Mesopotamian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR68,0.091058,0.144205,-0.064111,-0.075259,-0.024004,-0.022869,-0.00047,-0.01523,-0.013499,-0.003462,0.003248,0.001049,0.005203,-0.003165,-0.000679,-0.004508,-0.010431,0.001647,0.007165,-0.007504,0.004991,-0.000866,0.004437,0.000602,0.000838
    Middle_Eastern:Possible_Eastern_Anatolian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1551,0.100164,0.142174,-0.058454,-0.066861,-0.023081,-0.013387,0.00141,0.002308,-0.026793,0.000729,0.009094,0.003897,-0.015163,0.007432,0.000679,-0.02254,-0.009779,0.002154,0.002011,0.012131,0.007237,0.008408,-0.000739,-0.004699,0.00479
    Middle_Eastern:Anatolian:Possible_Central_Anatolian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR71,0.10927,0.158423,-0.044123,-0.068153,-0.003693,-0.029841,0.001645,-0.00923,-0.013294,0.022051,0.001949,0.002698,-0.014123,0.003853,-0.020087,-0.011005,0.009648,0.002407,0.002137,0.005503,-0.004866,-0.00643,0.002588,0.007591,-0.003473
    Middle_Eastern:Possible_Central_Anatolian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR72,0.113823,0.145221,-0.033564,-0.073321,-0.003693,-0.030957,0.008695,-0.008538,-0.005931,0.028976,0.009256,0.005545,0.002676,0.002202,-0.010315,-0.002254,0.007432,0.002027,0.005908,-0.002501,0.000749,0.002968,-0.008504,-0.001566,0.006107
    Middle_Eastern:Possible_Greek/Western_Anatolian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR81,0.108132,0.15436,-0.026398,-0.063308,0.005232,-0.027052,0.000705,0.008307,-0.001432,0.025149,0.005521,-0.003897,-0.002825,-0.005367,-0.010315,-0.001989,0.012126,0.004307,0.008422,0.001501,-0.010856,0.001484,0.00419,-0.001205,-0.001197
    Middle_Eastern:Egyptian_Antiquity:EGY_Hellenistic,0.040976,0.159438,-0.055437,-0.102068,0,-0.060798,-0.023266,-0.008307,0.048472,0.007472,0.015427,-0.019782,0.034341,-0.004129,0.00475,-0.015646,-0.024121,0.007348,-0.005028,-0.00025,-0.004617,0.008285,-0.012571,0.005302,-0.005987
    Middle_Eastern:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR132,0.028456,0.139128,-0.009051,-0.07429,0.026159,-0.029562,-0.017391,0.003461,0.050517,0.03098,0.004547,-0.001798,0.003865,-0.007569,0.005972,-0.011535,0.001043,-0.003421,-0.025768,-0.003126,-0.008984,-0.017435,0.011339,-0.011086,0.005389
    Middle_Eastern:Anatolian:Possible_Cypriot_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR75,0.099026,0.153345,-0.037335,-0.070737,-0.002462,-0.029841,0.005875,-0.011769,-0.001227,0.016948,0.00682,0.002698,-0.005649,0.007569,-0.019137,0.002254,0.001695,0.000253,-0.001383,-0.007629,0.003619,-0.002102,-0.00493,-0.005181,0.008622
    Middle_Eastern:Anatolian:Possible_Cypriot_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR126,0.101303,0.150298,-0.038466,-0.074936,-0.005847,-0.020917,-0.00235,-0.007154,-0.003681,0.027882,0.004872,0.002698,-0.000892,0.001514,-0.009772,-0.003447,0.00665,-0.006968,0.002263,-0.009004,-0.004367,0.003091,-0.003328,0.003615,-0.00012
    Middle_Eastern:Anatolian:Possible_Cypriot_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1545,0.105855,0.153345,-0.032809,-0.065569,0.001231,-0.016733,-0.00141,-0.000923,-0.006136,0.019864,0.002436,0.003597,-0.007136,-0.000275,-0.015472,-0.015911,-0.008214,-0.002027,0.005028,-0.007629,0.000499,0.011747,-0.005176,0.005784,-0.007065
    Sub-Sahara_African:KEN_HyraxHill_2300BP,-0.284558,0.09546,-0.018479,-0.068476,-0.00277,-0.043228,-0.011045,0.008307,0.125578,-0.086198,-0.01088,-0.008243,-0.003122,-0.00523,0.030809,-0.028109,0.006128,-0.007348,0.00088,0.000375,0.000873,-0.004451,-0.003574,0.004097,-0.0097
    Polish,0.1318405,0.1292694,0.0698685,0.0577382,0.0406754,0.0217127,0.0086781,0.0108626,-0.0009329,-0.0185524,-0.0043488,-0.0064187,0.013093,0.0186295,-0.0070244,-0.0005595,0.0015455,-7.41e-05,0.0026948,0.0012872,-0.0031286,-0.0031185,0.0056063,-0.0033328,-8.76e-05
    German,0.1302626,0.1373792,0.0579811,0.0387068,0.0400035,0.0156461,0.0040665,0.0057865,0.003526,0.00188,-0.0044133,0.0023732,-0.0053706,-0.0025417,0.0085125,0.0032913,-0.0032728,0.0016631,0.0033669,0.0017191,0.00314,0.002005,7.18e-05,0.0083052,0.0002774
    Last edited by CyrylBojarski; 02-05-2021 at 08:30 PM.

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  13. #10577
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyrylBojarski View Post
    Is it possible Ashkenazi Jews are about 70% West Asian and 30% Northern European without Iron Age Italian and Aegean admixture? Ashkenazi samples are modelled better without it with additional NW European references with much lower distance
    It is not
    The clock indicates the moment—but what does eternity indicate?

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    Ashkenazi Jews modeled with moderns:

    Code:
    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
    Distance: 0.0111% / 0.01106114 | R2P
    78.4	Maltese
    21.6	Turkish_Istanbul
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
    Distance: 0.0079% / 0.00786440 | R3P
    53.6	Maltese
    25.0	Cypriot
    21.4	Turkish_Deliorman
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
    Distance: 0.0047% / 0.00470992 | R4P
    44.3	Italian_Umbria
    26.3	Samaritan
    24.1	Turkish_Deliorman
    5.3	Tunisian_Berber_Zraoua
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
    Distance: 0.0040% / 0.00403228 | R5P
    31.2	Italian_Lombardy
    27.0	Lebanese_Christian
    23.5	Turkish_Deliorman
    13.3	Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    5.0	Berber_Tunisia_Chen
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
    Distance: 0.0035% / 0.00351562 | R6P
    35.6	Italian_Abruzzo
    22.3	Samaritan
    17.1	Swiss_Italian
    11.8	Turkish_Balikesir
    7.8	Serbian
    5.4	Berber_Tunisia_Chen
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
    Distance: 0.0031% / 0.00308487 | R7P
    22.2	Lebanese_Christian
    20.9	Italian_Bergamo
    18.2	Greek_Peloponnese
    12.0	Samaritan
    11.7	Turkish_Balikesir
    9.0	French_Seine-Maritime
    6.0	Berber_Tunisia_Chen
    Ashkenazi Jews modeled with ancients:

    Code:
    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
    Distance: 0.0210% / 0.02103957 | R2P
    62.0	ITA_Proto-Villanovan_RMPR1
    38.0	Levant_Baqah_BA_I3987
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
    Distance: 0.0132% / 0.01317433 | R3P
    44.3	Levant_Sidon_MBA_ERS1790733
    28.8	RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA_kzb007
    26.9	ITA_Sicily_MBA_I4109
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
    Distance: 0.0096% / 0.00964779 | R4P
    30.9	TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_ALA002
    29.5	RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA_kzb007
    21.6	ITA_Sicily_MBA_I4109
    18.0	Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian_SFI-43
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
    Distance: 0.0075% / 0.00750728 | R5P
    27.1	Levant_Sidon_MBA_ERS1790731
    23.4	DEU_Singen_EBA_MX277
    23.0	TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_ALA029
    21.6	Scythian_MDA_scy311
    4.9	Baltic_EST_BA_s19_X15_2
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
    Distance: 0.0060% / 0.00600418 | R6P
    25.3	TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_ALA002
    21.0	Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian_SFI-44
    18.5	Scythian_HUN_DA195
    17.7	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2_I8215
    10.6	England_IA_I0156
    6.9	UKR_Cimmerian_MJ32
    
    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
    Distance: 0.0057% / 0.00565462 | R7P
    22.9	Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian_SFI-44
    18.1	Scythian_HUN_DA195
    15.6	TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_ALA002
    13.8	England_IA_I0789
    12.8	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2_I8208
    10.9	TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_MA2205
    5.9	UKR_Cimmerian_MJ32
    [1] "distance%=2.9299"

    Ajeje Brazorf

    EEF,51.4
    BALTIC_BA,12.6
    GANJ_DAREH,10.8
    CHG,10.4
    MIDDLE_EAST,10
    ANE,2.4
    TAFORALT,1.8
    WHG,0.6

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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    It is not
    I think I would understand why it is not possible in your opinion, if you would write more

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyrylBojarski View Post
    I think I would understand why it is not possible in your opinion, if you would write more
    Simply put, because Ashkenazim are too closely related to other Western Jewish groups for this to be convincing, it certainly wouldn't be anything more than a good statistical fit. Western Jews share such elevated amounts of common ancestry that this is visible not just from an autosomal standpoint but also from a uniparental and even medical one (shared genetic diseases), they can tentatively be described as a single population for the most part:



    I have indicated the main ancient sources that comprise the majority of Western Jewish ancestry, a brute mixture of Levantine and local components (depending on the specific locale) for each Western Jewish group cannot really explain what we're seeing. The most parsimonious explanation is that they all stem from a single source which we might term "Proto-Western Jewish", a few pages back we discussed the possibility that some of the ITA_Rome_Imperial samples might be Jewish, one in particular (R130) is extremely likely to be embody a strand of ancestry which is either close or identical to the common Western Jewish source, others still (R835, R1549) might well have been of partial Jewish descent:



    So what we're seeing is divergence from a common ancient Jewish source in the diaspora, as opposed to convergence towards a broadly East Med profile. The identity of the common source is an open question, but judging from the proximity of R130 to Romaniotes I'd argue it has to lie in Hellenistic Jewry, possibly Italy but not only.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 02-10-2021 at 03:48 AM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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