Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

[eolien]

What do you make of your fathers slightly more Northern drift? I wish I had both maternal grandparents of mine tested, they looked complete polar opposite to one another but for all I know may cluster very tightly together. I remember you posted some gedmatch results of some Donmeh's, who plotted no different at all to other Turkish Jews. Your friend is not Donmeh?

I don't know if my dad is more northern drifted, in gedmatch he was closer to south italian populations whereas my mother needed some 10% Caucasian extra. But we have some south italian surnames among our relatives. This vahaduo Europe map looks a bit different from Past3 PCA maps, such as some Kos, Crete and Campania look very close to each other. I see my dad more Italian/Greek shifted. Since both are from Istanbul at least for a few generations they might have more Romaniote component too.

My friend is not Donmeh,regular Istanbuli Jew, mother side from Turkish Thrace. BTW the Turkish Jews never called, call or consider the Donmeh as Jews and they themselves neither (it is a very sensitive subject getting only a bit relaxed in my generation). But perhaps i can ask some of them to give me their raw data, this is the most difficult step because people are reluctant to do it.

Here are our G25 coordinates (scaled): enjoy.

eolien_scaled,0.089920,0.145221,-0.023004,-0.052649,0.006463,-0.0200801,-0.004935,-0.008307,0.007976,0.015672,0.001137,0.002098,-0.000892,0.001789,-0.003393,-0.014187,-0.0146030,0.004054,-0.000503,-0.002126,0.002246,-0.001978,0.008134,-0.0057840,0.001317

eolien_dad_scaled,0.094473,0.135065,-0.01697,-0.052326,0.013849,-0.022311,-0.00658,-0.005077,0.006749,0.020046,0.00065,0.001948,0.0013 38,-0.000413,-0.008279,0.002387,0.002608,0.002534,-0.00088,-5e-04,-0.001747,0.003833,-0.000986,-0.006266,0.001796

eolien_mom_scaled,0.091058,0.151314,-0.024136,-0.060401,0.001539,-0.013387,-0.005875,-0.004846,0.006749,0.014214,0.003085,0.002847,-0.002973,-0.001651,0.000679,-0.002387,-0.001304,-0.003294,-0.001508,-0.005503,0.000749,-0.000989,0.012941,0.006266,0.002275

eolien_IG,0.100164,0.146236,-0.018479,-0.059755,0.006463,-0.022032,-0.004935,-0.005538,0.009408,0.022597,0.001299,0.001049,0.001 933,-0.00055,-0.009636,0.006762,0.003129,0.001267,-0.000754,-0.006753,-0.003244,0.000866,-0.000246,-0.000482,0.005868

[Seabass]

I don't know if my dad is more northern drifted, in gedmatch he was closer to south italian populations whereas my mother needed some 10% Caucasian extra. But we have some south italian surnames among our relatives. This vahaduo Europe map looks a bit different from Past3 PCA maps, such as some Kos, Crete and Campania look very close to each other. I see my dad more Italian/Greek shifted. Since both are from Istanbul at least for a few generations they might have more Romaniote component too.

My friend is not Donmeh,regular Istanbuli Jew, mother side from Turkish Thrace. BTW the Turkish Jews never called, call or consider the Donmeh as Jews and they themselves neither (it is a very sensitive subject getting only a bit relaxed in my generation). But perhaps i can ask some of them to give me their raw data, this is the most difficult step because people are reluctant to do it.

Here are our G25 coordinates (scaled): enjoy.

eolien_scaled,0.089920,0.145221,-0.023004,-0.052649,0.006463,-0.0200801,-0.004935,-0.008307,0.007976,0.015672,0.001137,0.002098,-0.000892,0.001789,-0.003393,-0.014187,-0.0146030,0.004054,-0.000503,-0.002126,0.002246,-0.001978,0.008134,-0.0057840,0.001317

eolien_dad_scaled,0.094473,0.135065,-0.01697,-0.052326,0.013849,-0.022311,-0.00658,-0.005077,0.006749,0.020046,0.00065,0.001948,0.0013 38,-0.000413,-0.008279,0.002387,0.002608,0.002534,-0.00088,-5e-04,-0.001747,0.003833,-0.000986,-0.006266,0.001796

eolien_mom_scaled,0.091058,0.151314,-0.024136,-0.060401,0.001539,-0.013387,-0.005875,-0.004846,0.006749,0.014214,0.003085,0.002847,-0.002973,-0.001651,0.000679,-0.002387,-0.001304,-0.003294,-0.001508,-0.005503,0.000749,-0.000989,0.012941,0.006266,0.002275

eolien_IG,0.100164,0.146236,-0.018479,-0.059755,0.006463,-0.022032,-0.004935,-0.005538,0.009408,0.022597,0.001299,0.001049,0.001 933,-0.00055,-0.009636,0.006762,0.003129,0.001267,-0.000754,-0.006753,-0.003244,0.000866,-0.000246,-0.000482,0.005868

Legend! Santa is not just from Turkey, santa is apparently a Jew too! Besides the Turkish Jews in G25, there is now 4 you've contributed, my mum and also Sam1989. That means there is probably over 10 to play with now when you cancel out the Bulgarian Jews. If I see anything interesting I'll post it in the Sephardic thread. I wish there was a collection of those outside Turkey.

[StillWater]

New article by Shlomo Sand: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.pre...obia-1.9326080

Secondly, the Jews were never foreign to Europe and did not arrive there from the outside. They have always been authentic natives of the Continent, who at some point or another accepted the Jewish religion. It is not by chance that not one research study has ever dealt with the exile or migration of “the Jewish people.”

The population of the Kingdom of Judah, the vast majority of whom were hardscrabble farmers, never sailed to the other side of the Mediterranean in order to live in the “terrible exile.” The exile or migration of the Judeans originated as a hostile Christian myth.

“the Jew has always been a people with definite racial characteristics and never a religion” and therefore Jews could never be counted among those with Aryan blood (DNA had yet to be discovered then).

Shlomo Sand seems to think DNA vindicates him.

Can't wait to read this:

In my book “An Imaginary Race – A Short History of Judeophobia” (in Hebrew)

[genealogist_jewish]

Sand's work had been disproved genetically, but this doesn't seem to matter to him!

[genealogist_jewish]

I have very very briefly skimmed through this mega thread. The different admixture theories and the theory that Ashkenazim are initially from the Levant is fully supported by my TOLAN K71 results (I am 97.5% Ashkenazi, according to MH). Ignore the small % ethnicities. The ones over 5% are significant and perfectly match the different theses of Ashkenazi origins suggested on here.

results chart.jpg

My top (relevant, not just noise ethnicities)


65-Levant 24.02%
12-Sicily_Italia 20.38%
20-Crete_Greece 15.73%
49-Spain 5.83%
48-Baleares 4.99%
50-Portugal 3.37%
18-Thrace_Greece 2.65%
47-Basque 2.03%

Written results in full:


Component %
1-Sweden 0.10%
2-Denmark 0.46%
3-North_Poland 0.06%
4-Poland_Sudovia 0.44%
5-Belgium 0.57%
6-Piedmont_Italia 1.67%
7-Venezio_Italia 0.10%
8-Tuscany_Italia 0.78%
9-Lazio_Italia 0.84%
10-Apulia_Italia 1.53%
11-Corsica_France 0.60%
12-Sicily_Italia 20.38%
14-Canary 0.09%
15-Bulgaria 0.31%
16-Montenegro 1.29%
17-Albania 0.54%
18-Thrace_Greece 2.65%
19-Peloponnes_Greece 1.70%
20-Crete_Greece 15.73%
21-Tyrol_Austria 0.03%
22-Slovakia 0.04%
23-Hungary 0.11%
24-Finland_SW 0.91%
25-Saami 0.71%
26-Karelia 0.01%
27-Norway_north 0.24%
28-Estonian 0.03%
29-Belarusia_East 0.02%
30-Germany_East 0.08%
31-Ukraine_West 0.01%
32-Russia_Kursk 0.02%
35-Ireland 0.05%
36-SW-England 0.04%
37-Croatia 0.20%
38-Serbia 0.11%
39-Romania 0.16%
40-North-Germany 0.05%
41-South-Germany 0.37%
42-West-Brittany 0.22%
43-Rhone-Alpes 0.56%
44-Armorica 0.08%
45-Cotentin 0.30%
46-SW_France 0.01%
47-Basque 2.03%
48-Baleares 4.99%
49-Spain 5.83%
50-Portugal 3.37%
51-NE-England 0.91%
52-Netherlands 0.11%
53-Norway 0.06%
54-Orcadia 0.05%
55-Amerindian 0.20%
56-Arabia 0.21%
58-Caucasus 0.41%
64-Turkey 1.24%
65-Levant 24.02%
67-Oceania 0.08%
69-Siberia 1.32%
71-Iran&Assyria 0.96%

[CyrylBojarski]

Is it possible Ashkenazi Jews are about 70% West Asian and 30% Northern European without Iron Age Italian and Aegean admixture? Ashkenazi samples are modelled better without it with additional NW European references with much lower distance

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.9886% / 0.00988618
69.6	Middle_Eastern
20.2	German
10.2	Polish

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.2782% / 0.01278225
68.4	Middle_Eastern
20.4	German
11.2	Polish

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.8923% / 0.00892322
72.0	Middle_Eastern
18.4	German
9.6	Polish

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.0825% / 0.01082464
69.0	Middle_Eastern
20.4	German
10.6	Polish

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 0.5364% / 0.00536382
76.8	Middle_Eastern
23.2	German

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
Distance: 0.9304% / 0.00930352
68.2	Middle_Eastern
25.4	German
6.4	Polish

I use this model

Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:Levant_Beirut_ERoman,0.0859368,0.1406508,-0.0576052,-0.0909245,-0.0153875,-0.0312358,-0.0051112,-0.005596,0.007465,0.010524,0.0064958,-0.0090293,0.0178392,-0.0026492,-0.0099752,0.0170377,0.0113435,-0.0044975,0.0018855,0.0016572,0.0022772,0.0048845,-0.0008625,0.0039462,-0.0029638
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic,0.064879,0.147252,-0.060339,-0.0809115,-0.0063085,-0.029144,-0.0024675,-0.013615,0.0018405,0.0059225,0.005115,-0.0006745,0.0079535,0.0033715,-0.012283,-0.002718,-0.00665,0.0012035,0.009867,-0.012944,0.0034315,0.004637,-0.0057925,-0.002109,-0.005688
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:Levant_LBN_Roman,0.0887823,0.1447132,-0.0554368,-0.085595,-0.0116175,-0.0282378,-0.0074612,-0.0076152,0.0076698,0.0121642,0.0031262,-0.01139,0.0130822,-0.0017893,-0.0105862,0.0093475,0.002673,-0.0006652,0.0025138,0.0022512,0.000655,0.0059042,-0.0035742,0.0001205,-0.005299
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR42,0.079676,0.149283,-0.061094,-0.091409,-0.011079,-0.028168,-0.003525,-0.010153,0.01309,0.010023,0.006171,-0.002548,0.01219,0.004266,-0.009229,0.007292,-0.001173,0.002027,0.004399,0.001251,-0.001248,0.008285,0.001849,0,-0.001916
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR70,0.09675,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.085595,-0.009232,-0.023706,-0.004465,-0.007615,0.010431,0.00656,0.004547,-0.003747,0.0055,-0.002064,-0.009772,-0.00053,0.00352,-0.00152,0.001383,0.004252,-0.010357,0.007048,0,-0.006025,0.002874
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1547,0.080814,0.151314,-0.058831,-0.084626,-0.016003,-0.033746,-0.00517,-0.006923,0.011249,0.015126,0.000812,0.001199,0.009812,0.00234,-0.004479,-0.001724,0.005346,0.006208,-0.006285,0.002376,0.001248,0.008408,-0.001356,-0.004338,-0.010059
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1550,0.084229,0.140143,-0.047517,-0.074613,-0.012925,-0.026216,-0.0094,-0.007154,0.014112,0.005467,-0.000974,-0.002698,0.008622,-0.008257,0.001086,0.014983,0.014864,0.004814,-0.009302,0.002876,-0.001872,0.006183,0.004683,0.000843,-0.001676
Middle_Eastern:Mesopotamian:Possible_Mesopotamian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR67,0.080814,0.136081,-0.05506,-0.061047,-0.022466,-0.013666,0.00564,-0.008769,-0.014112,-0.007654,0.010068,-0.002698,0.008474,-0.002064,-0.01045,0.013922,0.008736,0.002534,-0.00176,-0.002001,-0.000873,-0.005812,0.005423,-0.002048,0.011137
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Mesopotamian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR68,0.091058,0.144205,-0.064111,-0.075259,-0.024004,-0.022869,-0.00047,-0.01523,-0.013499,-0.003462,0.003248,0.001049,0.005203,-0.003165,-0.000679,-0.004508,-0.010431,0.001647,0.007165,-0.007504,0.004991,-0.000866,0.004437,0.000602,0.000838
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Eastern_Anatolian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1551,0.100164,0.142174,-0.058454,-0.066861,-0.023081,-0.013387,0.00141,0.002308,-0.026793,0.000729,0.009094,0.003897,-0.015163,0.007432,0.000679,-0.02254,-0.009779,0.002154,0.002011,0.012131,0.007237,0.008408,-0.000739,-0.004699,0.00479
Middle_Eastern:Anatolian:Possible_Central_Anatolian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR71,0.10927,0.158423,-0.044123,-0.068153,-0.003693,-0.029841,0.001645,-0.00923,-0.013294,0.022051,0.001949,0.002698,-0.014123,0.003853,-0.020087,-0.011005,0.009648,0.002407,0.002137,0.005503,-0.004866,-0.00643,0.002588,0.007591,-0.003473
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Central_Anatolian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR72,0.113823,0.145221,-0.033564,-0.073321,-0.003693,-0.030957,0.008695,-0.008538,-0.005931,0.028976,0.009256,0.005545,0.002676,0.002202,-0.010315,-0.002254,0.007432,0.002027,0.005908,-0.002501,0.000749,0.002968,-0.008504,-0.001566,0.006107
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Greek/Western_Anatolian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR81,0.108132,0.15436,-0.026398,-0.063308,0.005232,-0.027052,0.000705,0.008307,-0.001432,0.025149,0.005521,-0.003897,-0.002825,-0.005367,-0.010315,-0.001989,0.012126,0.004307,0.008422,0.001501,-0.010856,0.001484,0.00419,-0.001205,-0.001197
Middle_Eastern:Egyptian_Antiquity:EGY_Hellenistic,0.040976,0.159438,-0.055437,-0.102068,0,-0.060798,-0.023266,-0.008307,0.048472,0.007472,0.015427,-0.019782,0.034341,-0.004129,0.00475,-0.015646,-0.024121,0.007348,-0.005028,-0.00025,-0.004617,0.008285,-0.012571,0.005302,-0.005987
Middle_Eastern:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR132,0.028456,0.139128,-0.009051,-0.07429,0.026159,-0.029562,-0.017391,0.003461,0.050517,0.03098,0.004547,-0.001798,0.003865,-0.007569,0.005972,-0.011535,0.001043,-0.003421,-0.025768,-0.003126,-0.008984,-0.017435,0.011339,-0.011086,0.005389
Middle_Eastern:Anatolian:Possible_Cypriot_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR75,0.099026,0.153345,-0.037335,-0.070737,-0.002462,-0.029841,0.005875,-0.011769,-0.001227,0.016948,0.00682,0.002698,-0.005649,0.007569,-0.019137,0.002254,0.001695,0.000253,-0.001383,-0.007629,0.003619,-0.002102,-0.00493,-0.005181,0.008622
Middle_Eastern:Anatolian:Possible_Cypriot_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR126,0.101303,0.150298,-0.038466,-0.074936,-0.005847,-0.020917,-0.00235,-0.007154,-0.003681,0.027882,0.004872,0.002698,-0.000892,0.001514,-0.009772,-0.003447,0.00665,-0.006968,0.002263,-0.009004,-0.004367,0.003091,-0.003328,0.003615,-0.00012
Middle_Eastern:Anatolian:Possible_Cypriot_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1545,0.105855,0.153345,-0.032809,-0.065569,0.001231,-0.016733,-0.00141,-0.000923,-0.006136,0.019864,0.002436,0.003597,-0.007136,-0.000275,-0.015472,-0.015911,-0.008214,-0.002027,0.005028,-0.007629,0.000499,0.011747,-0.005176,0.005784,-0.007065
Sub-Sahara_African:KEN_HyraxHill_2300BP,-0.284558,0.09546,-0.018479,-0.068476,-0.00277,-0.043228,-0.011045,0.008307,0.125578,-0.086198,-0.01088,-0.008243,-0.003122,-0.00523,0.030809,-0.028109,0.006128,-0.007348,0.00088,0.000375,0.000873,-0.004451,-0.003574,0.004097,-0.0097
Polish,0.1318405,0.1292694,0.0698685,0.0577382,0.0406754,0.0217127,0.0086781,0.0108626,-0.0009329,-0.0185524,-0.0043488,-0.0064187,0.013093,0.0186295,-0.0070244,-0.0005595,0.0015455,-7.41e-05,0.0026948,0.0012872,-0.0031286,-0.0031185,0.0056063,-0.0033328,-8.76e-05
German,0.1302626,0.1373792,0.0579811,0.0387068,0.0400035,0.0156461,0.0040665,0.0057865,0.003526,0.00188,-0.0044133,0.0023732,-0.0053706,-0.0025417,0.0085125,0.0032913,-0.0032728,0.0016631,0.0033669,0.0017191,0.00314,0.002005,7.18e-05,0.0083052,0.0002774

[hartaisarlag]

Is it possible Ashkenazi Jews are about 70% West Asian and 30% Northern European without Iron Age Italian and Aegean admixture? Ashkenazi samples are modelled better without it with additional NW European references with much lower distance

It is not

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Ashkenazi Jews modeled with moderns:

Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
Distance: 0.0111% / 0.01106114 | R2P
78.4	Maltese
21.6	Turkish_Istanbul

Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
Distance: 0.0079% / 0.00786440 | R3P
53.6	Maltese
25.0	Cypriot
21.4	Turkish_Deliorman

Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
Distance: 0.0047% / 0.00470992 | R4P
44.3	Italian_Umbria
26.3	Samaritan
24.1	Turkish_Deliorman
5.3	Tunisian_Berber_Zraoua

Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
Distance: 0.0040% / 0.00403228 | R5P
31.2	Italian_Lombardy
27.0	Lebanese_Christian
23.5	Turkish_Deliorman
13.3	Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
5.0	Berber_Tunisia_Chen

Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
Distance: 0.0035% / 0.00351562 | R6P
35.6	Italian_Abruzzo
22.3	Samaritan
17.1	Swiss_Italian
11.8	Turkish_Balikesir
7.8	Serbian
5.4	Berber_Tunisia_Chen

Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
Distance: 0.0031% / 0.00308487 | R7P
22.2	Lebanese_Christian
20.9	Italian_Bergamo
18.2	Greek_Peloponnese
12.0	Samaritan
11.7	Turkish_Balikesir
9.0	French_Seine-Maritime
6.0	Berber_Tunisia_Chen

Ashkenazi Jews modeled with ancients:

Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
Distance: 0.0210% / 0.02103957 | R2P
62.0	ITA_Proto-Villanovan_RMPR1
38.0	Levant_Baqah_BA_I3987

Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
Distance: 0.0132% / 0.01317433 | R3P
44.3	Levant_Sidon_MBA_ERS1790733
28.8	RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA_kzb007
26.9	ITA_Sicily_MBA_I4109

Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
Distance: 0.0096% / 0.00964779 | R4P
30.9	TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_ALA002
29.5	RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA_kzb007
21.6	ITA_Sicily_MBA_I4109
18.0	Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian_SFI-43

Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
Distance: 0.0075% / 0.00750728 | R5P
27.1	Levant_Sidon_MBA_ERS1790731
23.4	DEU_Singen_EBA_MX277
23.0	TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_ALA029
21.6	Scythian_MDA_scy311
4.9	Baltic_EST_BA_s19_X15_2

Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
Distance: 0.0060% / 0.00600418 | R6P
25.3	TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_ALA002
21.0	Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian_SFI-44
18.5	Scythian_HUN_DA195
17.7	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2_I8215
10.6	England_IA_I0156
6.9	UKR_Cimmerian_MJ32

Target: Ashkenazi_Jew_scaled
Distance: 0.0057% / 0.00565462 | R7P
22.9	Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian_SFI-44
18.1	Scythian_HUN_DA195
15.6	TUR_Alalakh_MLBA_ALA002
13.8	England_IA_I0789
12.8	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2_I8208
10.9	TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_MA2205
5.9	UKR_Cimmerian_MJ32

[CyrylBojarski]

It is not

I think I would understand why it is not possible in your opinion, if you would write more

[Agamemnon]

I think I would understand why it is not possible in your opinion, if you would write more

Simply put, because Ashkenazim are too closely related to other Western Jewish groups for this to be convincing, it certainly wouldn't be anything more than a good statistical fit. Western Jews share such elevated amounts of common ancestry that this is visible not just from an autosomal standpoint but also from a uniparental and even medical one (shared genetic diseases), they can tentatively be described as a single population for the most part:



I have indicated the main ancient sources that comprise the majority of Western Jewish ancestry, a brute mixture of Levantine and local components (depending on the specific locale) for each Western Jewish group cannot really explain what we're seeing. The most parsimonious explanation is that they all stem from a single source which we might term "Proto-Western Jewish", a few pages back we discussed the possibility that some of the ITA_Rome_Imperial samples might be Jewish, one in particular (R130) is extremely likely to be embody a strand of ancestry which is either close or identical to the common Western Jewish source, others still (R835, R1549) might well have been of partial Jewish descent:



So what we're seeing is divergence from a common ancient Jewish source in the diaspora, as opposed to convergence towards a broadly East Med profile. The identity of the common source is an open question, but judging from the proximity of R130 to Romaniotes I'd argue it has to lie in Hellenistic Jewry, possibly Italy but not only.