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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I notice Dodecanese and Calabria shifting toward Cyprus but Sicily shifting toward North African Jews, at their extremes.
    Calabrians, Sicilians are primarily Barchin Neolithic or Anatolian EBA with Italic and secondary input from other areas. ie. Aberesche in some regions or Arabic/Maghrebi in some.
    Dodecanese are the most Eastern shifted region of Greece (geography speaking would be part of Anatolia rather Europe) so their gedmatch scores aren't that surprising.. Calabria on the other hand is more outlying for their region expecting them to be more Western shifted than Greek Islanders but a lot are just as Near East shifted as the most outlying Greek Islands.

    For example a Dodecanese Greek from Karpathos gets very similar to South Italians but have East European admixture instead of the Western European which captures the Continental European ancestry in Sicilians.

    # Population Percent
    1 SW_Europe 34.13
    2 West_Asia 27.62
    3 SW_Asia 20.57
    4 NE_Europe 13.58
    5 Siberia 1.08
    6 South_Asia 1.08
    7 NE_Asia 0.9
    8 West_Africa 0.69
    9 Oceania 0.34

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sephardic_Jew 4.86
    2 Ashkenazy_Jew 7.12
    3 Italian_Sicilian 7.42
    4 Cypriot 9.07
    5 Turkish 10.56
    6 Greek_Central 11.19
    7 Italian_Abruzzo 11.91
    8 Syrian 12.09
    9 Lebanese_Christian 12.28
    10 Turkish_Kayseri 12.34
    11 Lebanese_Druze 12.83
    12 Lebanese_Muslim 13.61
    13 Jordanian 13.76
    14 Turkish_Aydin 14.2
    15 Palestinian 16.4
    16 Greek_Thessaly 16.65
    17 Albanian 17.26
    18 Azerbaijan_Azeri 18.1
    19 Assyrian 18.34
    20 Samaritan_Jew 18.35

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 69.9% Sephardic_Jew + 30.1% Turkish @ 1.91
    2 69.4% Lebanese_Muslim + 30.6% Spaniard @ 1.96
    3 73.3% Sephardic_Jew + 26.7% Turkish_Kayseri @ 1.96
    4 76.1% Sephardic_Jew + 23.9% Turkish_Aydin @ 2
    5 51.6% Albanian + 48.4% Samaritan_Jew @ 2.06
    6 70.7% Lebanese_Druze + 29.3% Spaniard @ 2.15
    7 52.5% Greek_Thessaly + 47.5% Samaritan_Jew @ 2.16
    8 71.7% Lebanese_Christian + 28.3% Spaniard @ 2.2
    9 66.8% Ashkenazy_Jew + 33.2% Jordanian @ 2.25
    10 70.6% Ashkenazy_Jew + 29.4% Palestinian @ 2.26
    11 80.7% Sephardic_Jew + 19.3% Azerbaijan_Azeri @ 2.29
    12 84.7% Sephardic_Jew + 15.3% Iranian @ 2.3
    13 62.5% Greek_Central + 37.5% Samaritan_Jew @ 2.36
    14 74.3% Lebanese_Christian + 25.7% French @ 2.38
    15 67.6% Lebanese_Christian + 32.4% Italian_Bergamo @ 2.39
    16 61.2% Lebanese_Christian + 38.8% Italian_Tuscan @ 2.4
    17 84.5% Sephardic_Jew + 15.5% Dagestan_Azeri @ 2.46
    18 50.1% Samaritan_Jew + 49.9% Kosovar @ 2.48
    19 83.8% Sephardic_Jew + 16.2% Kurdish @ 2.49
    20 58.7% Lebanese_Christian + 41.3% Albanian @ 2.5


    South Aegean didn't receive any noticeable Jewish or Levantine input still look at how East Mediterranean shifted and this is likely to be Anatolia EBA rather direct Levant ancestry. This sample is basically zero Mainland Greek like and would fall in the Anatolian Greek cluster as expected for East Aegean heavily colonized by Ionian Greeks and lack the Steppe, Balkanic input.

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  3. #102
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    As to the chronology of the two "seed" communities of Western Jews; Romaniote and Italqim. These are the two original Jewish communities in Europe. They are distinct, but both result from the original migration of Jews from Israel to the Greek-speaking world of the time. When Jews first came to Greece, the Italic identity had not yet become "Roman". The Jews in Rome proper, developed this identity as Italqim via the Roman host culture. The Romaniote developed a Judeo-Greek culture and language (Yevanic-Judeo-Greek written in Hebrew, like Yiddish, Ladino and Yemenite Judeo-Arabic). So technically the Romaniote were in place earlier, even though the Romaniote distinctiveness also developed over history and was subject to the evolutionary influences of being under the Christian-Byzantine avatar of Greek culture, obviously not the same as the Classical Greek world to which the Jews first came. Once Italqim and the Roman culture were in place, these two communities developed separately, though like all Jews remained in contact. The later ethnogenesis of Ashkenazi, Sefaradi, and Syrian Jews( Western Jews grafted onto musta'arib Jews in place from Israel) was an outgrowth of both of them and both are the ancestors of Western Jews.

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  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    We agree on the genetic reality today but we just disagree slightly on why it is that way. I definitely am not denying Phoenician and Arab ancestry in Sicily, I'm proud of it in fact. I just think there's more to the story also is all!

    Jews may have a partial Arabian ancestry from ancient times going by autosomal and their haplogroup J frequency.


    no
    we have levantine ancestery not arabian
    i score 0% arabian in livingdna but i do score significant levantine
    same goes for johns who is full aschenazi he score only 1-1.5% arabia in living dna extremely low .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by giorgio View Post
    I think generally Calabrians are more Byzantine (higher East Med with less SSA and North African and Arabian) where as Sicilians are more North African, Arabian and less East Mediterranean with slightly more North European (probably North Italian settlements) based on Eurogenes.
    I was about to mention Byzantine influences.
    If we look at the Byzantine Empire stretching past Greece,Turkey,Armenia,Levant,And down to Egypt.
    Two of the main ethnic groups through out the Byzantine reign were Greek Speeking Armenians & Syrians.
    When Justian re-conquered italy he used a Greco-Armenian/Syrian Army.
    It’s also documented he re-populated Southern Italy with amongst others Armenian populations.
    Calabria was the Southern capital of Byzantine Italy and had the longest running influence from These Byzantine populations demographics influence so to Speak,this coupled with what I mentioned of Calabria’s large and long running Jewish history.
    So Calabrians scoring high levantine & Caucasus is probably mainly as a result of having a bigger combination of Byzantine & Jewish Admixture rather than than just Arab Muslim,mixed with its Ancient Greek Italian population.
    The opposite of a ancient genetic isolate population.
    With admix left right and center just like the rest of Southern Italy.
    Last edited by Claudio; 06-08-2018 at 03:17 PM.

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    I was under the impression Calabria was genetically isolated but maybe I am wrong. The only thing I know is that the low IBD with Greece today means the Greek speakers there likely did not come from the mainland. Maybe they came from Anatolia. Because the regions with higher IBD with mainland Greece also show elevated East Euro autosomal input.
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 06-08-2018 at 03:35 PM.

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  11. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    no
    we have levantine ancestery not arabian
    i score 0% arabian in livingdna but i do score significant levantine
    same goes for johns who is full aschenazi he score only 1-1.5% arabia in living dna extremely low .....
    Levantines and Arabians overlap and often indistinguishable on DNA maps. It's certainly obvious that without the religious attributes both Jews and Arabs share common ancestry with some differences. Take example the difference between Christian Palestinians and Gaza Palestinians - On DNA they would both appear similar despite the Gazans have higher affinity with Egyptians but the vast majority of their DNA would be the same. I think the Original Hebrews (assuming they were homogeneous at the beginning) were similar to Canaanites or let's say modern Samaritans. Eastern Hebrews like Iraqi Jews or Iranian Jews might be descendants of converted Babylonians or Assyrians or intermarried with those groups, where as Western Jews mixed with other East Mediterranean groups (Myceaneans, Romans, Anatolians to some extent and later some minimal admix from Central and North Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    It's exciting to think just how informative a mere handful of Iron Age genomes from the Mezzogiorno, Aegean, and Levant would be for so many modern populations. The most burning questions we have about East Mediterranean demography could conceivably be solved in just one paper. What a time to be an anthropologist...
    https://www.archaeoscience.org

    "DNA is now beginning to illuminate the period that saw the rise of civilizations in the ancient Mediterranean. Accordingly, the Initiative for the Science of the Human Past at Harvard (SoHP) is delighted to announce the formation of a new center for the study of the Mediterranean using ancient DNA and other scientific approaches.
    The Max Planck-Harvard Research Center for the Archaeoscience of the Ancient Mediterranean (MHAAM) is a platform to engage colleagues and students in the discovery of new data which will prompt us to re-think and revise many of our contemporary perspectives on the history of pandemic disease, cultural engagement, migration and human health."


    In the next few years, I'm hoping this effort will give us the answers we're looking for. I don't know of any papers published by them yet, but clearly there are big plans in store.

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  15. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by giorgio View Post
    Levantines and Arabians overlap and often indistinguishable on DNA maps. It's certainly obvious that without the religious attributes both Jews and Arabs share common ancestry with some differences. Take example the difference between Christian Palestinians and Gaza Palestinians - On DNA they would both appear similar despite the Gazans have higher affinity with Egyptians but the vast majority of their DNA would be the same. I think the Original Hebrews (assuming they were homogeneous at the beginning) were similar to Canaanites or let's say modern Samaritans. Eastern Hebrews like Iraqi Jews or Iranian Jews might be descendants of converted Babylonians or Assyrians or intermarried with those groups, where as Western Jews mixed with other East Mediterranean groups (Myceaneans, Romans, Anatolians to some extent and later some minimal admix from Central and North Europeans.

    yes i score indo -iranian in dna land and gencove and also pakistan in dna tribes snp tes
    and south central asia in k29 calculator of kurd
    yes mizrachi jews acquired some aryan genes during the 2000 years in the persian yard .

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    Quote Originally Posted by giorgio View Post
    I don't think Sicilians or Aegean Islanders have any significant Levantine admixture that should be worth to mention. If anything they have a good chump of Anatolian EBA like admixture which is also the dominant genetic component in the Levant (more so in the Northern part) than they share some direct Canaanite link - that would be quite unlikely. We're also talking about 5-10% differences here so making an assumption based on a single DNA study isn't much of a proof or too weak to bring any serious conclusions here.
    If anything I think the majority of the Near Eastern like ancestry in South Europe is rather more Native than the recent Steppe, Indo European like geneflow which dramatically changed the genetic structure of Mainland Greece. I don't think Steppe people were European or any native rather a group of people who lived in the Eastern steppes and had absorbed many different ethnic groups. Some of them could've been Iranian like while others were more Estonian like (just an example of their genetic cline)
    I mostly agree with you, until this part ^^^

    For two main reasons:

    1. Phoenician colonization and settlement in Sicily is well documented, as well as Greek. Sicily and South Italy at one point, had specific Greek dialects directly derive from Greece mainland and Aegean Islands (I'm talking 2000 years ago, yes?). Modern qpAdm modelling of Sicilians always include substantial Levantine admixture - about ~10% Levantine, ~10% North African. Around 37% of it is Greek - as in derived from those Greek colonialists.
    2. While BA Anatolian exist to some degree among modern-day Levantines, it's minor, and the model many used today is a model suggested by Hebar et al and Lazirdis in the last few years of Neolithic Levantine + CHL Iranian, an admixture which occured around 6000 YBP, and kind of eliminates BA Anatolian admixture which might get overlap with Southern Europeans. This is also the model I use. I know we're already at page 11, but if you read the previous pages, you should see it. In any case, here are my Basal-rich K-7 models:

    [1] "distance%=0.0292 / distance=0.000292"

    Lebanese_Christian:average

    Minoan_Lasithi:I0070 31.55
    Iran_ChL:I1661 25.15
    Levant_N:I1704 24.50
    Iran_ChL:I1665 12.55
    Mycenaean:I9041 4.30
    Levant_N:I1699 1.65
    Iran_ChL:I1662 0.30

    Roughly 65% Bronze Age Levantines, 35% ancient Aegean.

    Distance of 0.0292%.

    Let's check Samaritans, with the exact same populations as Christian Lebanese:

    [1] "distance%=0.5681 / distance=0.005681"

    Samaritan:GSM537032

    Iran_ChL:I1665 34.5
    Levant_N:I1704 33.2
    Levant_N:I0867 32.4

    No Aegean admixture appeared.

    Let's check Christian Israeli Arabs:

    [1] "distance%=0.134 / distance=0.00134"

    Arab_Israel_1:average

    Levant_N:I1704 30.2
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0073 26.6
    Iran_ChL:I1665 21.8
    Iran_ChL:I1662 15.9
    Iran_ChL:I1661 5.5

    Roughly 73% Bronze Age Levantines, 26% Aegean - mostly Minoan (No Mycenaean).

    Next, let's check Druze:

    [1] "distance%=0.0289 / distance=0.000289"

    Druze:average

    Minoan_Lasithi:I0073 21.20
    Levant_N:I1704 20.35
    Iran_ChL:I1665 19.65
    Iran_ChL:I1661 14.40
    Mycenaean:I9010 9.15
    Iran_ChL:I1662 8.05
    Mycenaean:I9006 6.50
    Iran_ChL:I1674 0.70

    Very similar to Christian Lebanese - Bronze Age Levantine is 63%, Ancient Aegean is 37% (both Minoan and Mycenaean). Distance is 0.0289%.

    Now let's check Cypriots:

    [1] "distance%=0.0998 / distance=0.000998"

    Cypriot:average

    Minoan_Odigitria:I9131 24.80
    Mycenaean:I9041 21.40
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0073 17.10
    Iran_ChL:I1661 12.00
    Iran_ChL:I1662 8.65
    Iran_ChL:I1665 7.25
    Levant_N:I1704 6.70
    Iran_ChL:I1674 2.10

    Mirror image of Druze . 63% Aegean, 37% Levantines. Not surprising at all.
    BA Anatolian surely would infiltrate, especially via Hurrians, Hittites and Mitanni which were BA Anatolian people that established empires which have reigned over parts of the Levant from 21st to the 12th centuries BC. But, this N_Levant + CHL_Iranian model helps eliminate it and give us the possibility to locate Levantine admixture among present day Sicilians and Aegean Islanders.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 06-08-2018 at 08:58 PM.

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  19. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    I was about to mention Byzantine influences.
    If we look at the Byzantine Empire stretching past Greece,Turkey,Armenia,Levant,And down to Egypt.
    Two of the main ethnic groups through out the Byzantine reign were Greek Speeking Armenians & Syrians.
    When Justian re-conquered italy he used a Greco-Armenian/Syrian Army.
    It’s also documented he re-populated Southern Italy with amongst others Armenian populations.
    Calabria was the Southern capital of Byzantine Italy and had the longest running influence from These Byzantine populations demographics influence so to Speak,this coupled with what I mentioned of Calabria’s large and long running Jewish history.
    So Calabrians scoring high levantine & Caucasus is probably mainly as a result of having a bigger combination of Byzantine & Jewish Admixture rather than than just Arab Muslim,mixed with its Ancient Greek Italian population.
    The opposite of a ancient genetic isolate population.
    With admix left right and center just like the rest of Southern Italy.
    I was unaware of Syrian Byzantines being so important in the Empire - I was aware of Armenian importance. That would actually explain why most Levantine admixture among Greeks is dated to Byzantine period - probably came from those Syrians.

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