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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    it was far more than that _it defines the entire iron age and first standing civilization and the princely tombs base the origins of that civilization; there was very little that arrived mediated by the greeks rather than direct incl the script
    Euboeans were Greeks, just saying. A 22 page script to know what was already known: the Adriatic is the mediator with the East Mediterranean world and the Balkans. And the paper mentions many areas that have never been Etruscan.

    Moreover, the paper says very clearly

    "This network of rising centres could also accommodate various groups from elsewhere such as Sardinians, people from the Balkans, Phoenicians and Euboeans who arrived in Italy during the Iron Age", as is documented in the papers of this session. It is noteworthy that none of these incoming groups became dominant, functioning within existing and thriving communities."

    Therefore, even the author himself, who is an archaeologist, uses the conditional, because he is perfectly aware of the lack of archeological evidences of mass migrations and clearly doesn't believe that these groups may have replaced and changed completely the genome of indigenous communities, and may be the explanation of the Italian cline.


    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    older than could have been adopted from pithekoussai https://books.google.de/books?id=7Fm...epage&q&f=true

    It could have been, but again it's just another hypothesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    That could be, but I am saying that before Greeks and Phoenicians reached southern Italy, the population would not only have been a mixture of EEF and whatever came before it. The Bell Beaker Sicilian samples we have already had more CHG/Iran Neolithic than Sardinians have today, so there was already a third migration from the east. My hypothesis is the arrival of Bell Beaker added more "Sardinian" and this could be what Sarno et al is picking up as "an additional wave of Sardinian" into Trapani.
    We don't know, it's just a theory of yours vs. mine. Additional data is required. What I do know, is that logic dictates that nearby Italy would be similar to Sardinia and Alpine samples, more than to Cyprus or Crete so far in European history.


    I disagree with this for the sheer fact that in the Aegean islands, whether or not you see Slavic, you still see Atlantic/"West European" type of components in many people's results.
    So? We say the same thing - it's just that in the Aegean, there are still remnants of WHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    We don't know, it's just a theory of yours vs. mine. Additional data is required. What I do know, is that logic dictates that nearby Italy would be similar to Sardinia and Alpine samples, more than to Cyprus or Crete so far in European history.



    So? We say the same thing - it's just that in the Aegean, there are still remnants of WHG.

    We do know that the Sicilian from 2500 BC was more Iranian Neolithic/CHG/Caucasian than modern Sardinians -- let me repeat that because it is truly remarkable: Sicilians from 4500 years ago are more admixed and less "frozen in time" genetically than MODERN Sardinians, living breathing people today. Therefore, I do not think it is an unreasonable leap to state that other migratory waves that hit the Aegean made it over to southern Italy, leading to a wide network of similar populations.

    I can agree that pre-Greek Sicilians may have been slightly more Sardinian-like than Minoans, but not to the extent you likely think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taurus View Post
    Euboeans were Greeks, just saying. A 22 page script to know what was already known: the Adriatic is the mediator with the East Mediterranean world and the Balkans. And the paper mentions many areas that have never been Etruscan.

    Moreover, the paper says very clearly

    "This network of rising centres could also accommodate various groups from elsewhere such as Sardinians, people from the Balkans, Phoenicians and Euboeans who arrived in Italy during the Iron Age", as is documented in the papers of this session. It is noteworthy that none of these incoming groups became dominant, functioning within existing and thriving communities."

    Therefore, even the author himself, who is an archaeologist, uses the conditional, because he is perfectly aware of the lack of archeological evidences of mass migrations and clearly doesn't believe that these groups may have replaced and changed completely the genome of indigenous communities, and may be the explanation of the Italian cline.
    yes not dominant as in superseding one another as the epilogue rights which were formed on the sound foundations of stratified Iron Age/Villanovan centres. This cultural shift of longue durée, lasting at least a century, is characterised by hybridization and that is the key as italy was crossroads in the iron age of east med and carpatho-balkan; but it could not have been phoenicians themselves otherwise a semitic language would be attested as in the colonies of neighbouring sardinia instead a cypriot people of the cypro-phoenician network fits as almost ever aspect of the orien period links to cyprus specially chariot burials, in epilogue The Orientalizing idiom of the artefacts and symbols of power supplemented and replaced those of Villanovan origin with their links to central Europe, north of the Alps. This cultural shift was not just restricted to goods but also affected architecture, burial customs, religion and politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Taurus View Post
    It could have been, but again it's just another hypothesis.
    this seems pretty much fixed, the earliest inscriptions date ~700bc colliding with the emerging orientalizing period but could not be in situ adopted from pithekoussai as it could not transponder these archaic features, hence the script must have been brought into from where it came from;
    Last edited by alexfritz; 07-04-2018 at 04:15 PM.
    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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    There's been a continuous geneflow from the East Mediterranean basin to other parts of the Med Sea. In other words the mediterranean sea with it's islands make a continuous process between Southern Europe and the Western Middle East. Jews can be one of the still existing populations which had managed to cross the Med Sea and survive without assimilating. I assume there were Jewish like populations that had reached parts of South Europe and North Africa but they assimilated and left no linguistic but genetic footprint which can be observed in Southern Italy, parts of Greece, Southern Spain and North Africa.
    The first geneflow started with migrations fron Anatolia and those groups reached not only Southern Europe but were the ancestors of Neolithic Stuttgart, Oetzi and the Koros culture in Neolithic Hungary, later we see an ongoing process as a Steppe and Corded Ware related group pushed Southward the neolithic related farmers and most likely "indoeuropeanized" the ancestors of Sardinians, Southern Italians and Greeks. The same geneflow appeared at times in Western Asia and South Asia with the spread of Steppe like geneflow their result was a stepoe dominated paternal lineage R1A-Z93 and I and possibly Q with a mostly local mothernal ancestry (M* etc)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    We do know that the Sicilian from 2500 BC was more Iranian Neolithic/CHG/Caucasian than modern Sardinians -- let me repeat that because it is truly remarkable: Sicilians from 4500 years ago are more admixed and less "frozen in time" genetically than MODERN Sardinians, living breathing people today. Therefore, I do not think it is an unreasonable leap to state that other migratory waves that hit the Aegean made it over to southern Italy, leading to a wide network of similar populations.

    I can agree that pre-Greek Sicilians may have been slightly more Sardinian-like than Minoans, but not to the extent you likely think.
    Btw, this reminds me exactly of an argument we had more than ten days ago (running in circles and re-living past arguments...) on exactly the same issue, with which I replied the following:

    * There is a well documented Hellenic-speaking migration and colonization and presence in South Italy and Sicily, by starting from the Mycenaeans and continued until Medieval ages.
    * Pre-Hellenic Sicilians were much more similar to Sardinian-like Neolithic farmers.
    * Specific genetic subclades have been located among Sicilians and S. Italians that can show their origins to specific locations in Greece itself.

    The most important thing is, the pattern of movement is from East to West. So it's quite obvious that even if the pre-Hellenic S. Italians and Sicilians were already quite similar to the Minoans or pre-Mycenaean ancestors of the Greeks, the mass movement of Greek-speaking people to S. Italy and Sicily was from East to West. The end result means very little to our discussion, as the genetic and cultural affinity to Greeks obviously been strengthened, if not entirely stems from, mass Greek migration, not only general Mediterranean similarity between the original natives. Obviously, this affinity coincidentally 100% overlap with the geographic location of where Greeks settled. It doesn't exist, or exist to a very minor levels, among Italian people that haven't been colonized by Greeks. Sounds like too much of coincidence to me, and for me the simpler explanation, given that it has evidence and scientific merit, sounds more plausible.


    In any case, when I think about it, it also means very little to the theory I bring forward, other than the pure, interesting, intellectual discussion about whether or not pre-Hellenic Sicilians already were of similar genetic makeup as Mycenaeans (which they haven't but let's assume they had).

    First, for the historical background:
    1. For starters, regardless of previous genetic similarity, there was a huge Greek migration and settlement in Sicily and S. Italy.
    2. There was no known mass migration of S. Italians to Greek Islands or Cyprus.
    3. Hellenistic Judaism centers, as well as popularity among Greco-Roman gentiles around the 1st century AD, was much, much more widespread in the East than in Italy.
    4. Italian rite is extremely similar and most likely derive from Romaniote rite, and there have been South Italian Romaniote communities - not vice versa (Italian Jews in Greek-speaking areas outside of Italy).
    5. Jews, Judean and others, have been migrating in ancient times in the following pattern: East Mediterranean to West.


    Now for the genetic evidence we have gathered in this thread to now:
    1. Least European admixed Western Jews - Musta'arabi Syrian Jews - plot with, and synonymous results with, Cypriots. By using Cypriots as a base model, I could easily model other Western Jews - as I've shown on both Global25 and BR-K7.
    2. All Western Jews cluster both with S. Italians, Sicilians AND Greek Islanders.
    3. S. Italians and Sicilians cluster with Greek Islanders, Greek Islanders cluster with S. Italians and Sicilians and Greek mainlanders AND Cypriots. The common ground here are the Greek islanders (plus, remember 1 + 2 in the historical background I've wrote above).
    4. Ashkenazi Jews cluster with Cretans more (not much more, but more) than they do with Sicilians or S. Italians. They also share more cM genetic matches with Cretans than with Italians.
    5. Sephardim and Italian Jews do not cluster exactly with Sicilians or S. Italians - not in the way that Ashkenazim cluster with Cretans or Syrian Jews with Cypriots.
    6. No specific widespread haplogroup mutations and subclades, have been found, as of yet, that can be attributed to Italians, or Greeks, among any Western Jewish community.

    Ergo, by summing up the two lists above, I come to the simple conclusion that, regardless of how similar pre-Greek Sicilians and S. Italians were to the Mycenaeans, the most likely South European admixture among Western Jews is Greek, not Italian, and most likely entered in the East Mediterranean.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post424129

    Again you pulled us into "origin of Italians" argument

    And in all of these arguments, you still didn't explain the following:
    We have an explanation why the different Jewish communities cluster with many different Greek populations (Aegeans, Cyclades for Ashkenazi, Cretans, Dodecanese for both Ashkenazi and Sephardim, Cypriots for Syrian Jews) but not with mainland Greeks (extensive Slavic admixture in the latter).
    But you have failed to explain how come Jews seem to only cluster with S. Italians and Sicilians, which so happened to magically coincide with extensive Greek ancestry. And no, you have failed to show similar amount of Levantine admixture in all of the above populations. If anything, both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews should show clustering towards at least Tuscans, because both of them have other Western European admixture in common with Tuscans (S. French/Catalan etc.). And we also know for a fact that Jews lived north to S. Italy even back to Roman times.


    I don't believe in coincidence. If, Western Jews cluster with various different Greek populations with different Levantine admixture (and even with, and despite of, various different Slavic admixtures), and with S. Italians and Sicilians which also happen to have substantial Greek ancestry, but fail to cluster in any meaningful way with Italian populations that lack substantial Hellenic ancestry, I see Hellenic/Greek ancestry as again, the common ground. As simple as that.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 07-04-2018 at 05:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    We do know that the Sicilian from 2500 BC was more Iranian Neolithic/CHG/Caucasian than modern Sardinians -- let me repeat that because it is truly remarkable: Sicilians from 4500 years ago are more admixed and less "frozen in time" genetically than MODERN Sardinians, living breathing people today. Therefore, I do not think it is an unreasonable leap to state that other migratory waves that hit the Aegean made it over to southern Italy, leading to a wide network of similar populations.

    I can agree that pre-Greek Sicilians may have been slightly more Sardinian-like than Minoans, but not to the extent you likely think.
    there was to few markers that overlap with gedmatch calculators
    he could have been an outlier
    you need higher quality samples to conclude

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Again you pulled us into "origin of Italians" argument
    Because it is absolutely necessary in order to determine which type of admixture is present in Jews. I continually tie it back to Jewish origins in this discussion for a reason, because it is relevant. If we believe that the pre-Greek Sicilians were already Mycenaean or Minoan like, at least partially, as I do, it does not require Hellenic admixture in Jews to explain SOME aspects of their plotting.

    But you have failed to explain how come Jews seem to only cluster with S. Italians and Sicilians, which so happened to magically coincide with extensive Greek ancestry. And no, you have failed to show similar amount of Levantine admixture in all of the above populations. If anything, both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews should show clustering towards at least Tuscans, because both of them have other Western European admixture in common with Tuscans (S. French/Catalan etc.). And we also know for a fact that Jews lived north to S. Italy even back to Roman times.
    Ashkenazim and Sephardim do show evidence of Italian admixture. On any professional DNA testing service where the "Ashkenazi" category is removed, Ashkenazi DNA gets split up between Levantine/West Asian, and Italian (usually a Tuscan or North Italian sample), and not into any Balkan nor Greek cluster. Jews cluster with South Italians and not North Italians/Tuscans as an AGGREGATE of their total ancestry because North Italians and Tuscans do not have significant Levantine.

    Let me give an example.

    Someone who is half Nigerian and half Lebanese will plot closely to Ethiopians on a PCA plot even though they are not Ethiopian at all. This does not mean they are more related to/more descended from Ethiopians. Similarly, Ashkenazim could very well be half North Italian and half Levantine and plot in southern Italy or an Aegean island, it does not mean they are more related to south Italians and Aegean islanders directly, as they descend from neither in my view.


    I don't believe in coincidence. If, Western Jews cluster with various different Greek populations with different Levantine admixture (and even with, and despite of, various different Slavic admixtures), and with S. Italians and Sicilians which also happen to have substantial Greek ancestry, but fail to cluster in any meaningful way with Italian populations that lack substantial Hellenic ancestry, I see Hellenic/Greek ancestry as again, the common ground. As simple as that.
    I explained this above. It is the Levantine/Near Eastern affinity causing this. Why do Ashkenazim not plot with Epirotes, Thessalians, and Macedonians? Too high Slavic, too low Levantine. Sephardim do not even plot with North Aegeans and Cyclades, let alone with Peloponnesians. And according to what I can see from the individual Cretans I have, even they are removed from Sephardim.

    Similarly, why do Ashkenazim not plot with Tuscans and Venetians? Too high of Italic input or even Germanic, too low Levantine.

    The common trend between all of this is Levantine admixture.

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    These are two Chios islanders. I don't see them coming out close to Sephardim (which they should if it is a common trend of Aegean mixture) but their Red Sea is low and Baltic is high. They are close to "Central Greek" though, and Ashkenazim are close.

    I know you said not to post individual results, but this trend happens almost every time so I feel it needs to be pointed out.

    #1:
    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 30.25
    2 West_Med 20.96
    3 North_Atlantic 16.97
    4 West_Asian 16.34
    5 Baltic 8.63
    6 Red_Sea 4.18
    7 South_Asian 1.51
    8 East_Asian 1.09
    9 Siberian 0.08

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Central_Greek 2.66
    2 East_Sicilian 3.65
    3 South_Italian 3.89
    4 Italian_Abruzzo 5.55
    5 West_Sicilian 6.72
    6 Ashkenazi 7.5
    7 Greek_Thessaly 9.16
    8 Sephardic_Jewish 10.14
    9 Italian_Jewish 10.64
    10 Algerian_Jewish 10.98
    11 Tuscan 12.43
    12 Tunisian_Jewish 14.3
    13 Libyan_Jewish 15.07
    14 Cyprian 15.41
    15 Bulgarian 17.54
    16 Turkish 18.22
    17 North_Italian 18.49
    18 Lebanese_Muslim 18.54
    19 Romanian 19.61
    20 Syrian 19.88

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 67.6% Central_Greek + 32.4% South_Italian @ 2.17
    2 94.7% Central_Greek + 5.3% Armenian @ 2.25
    3 94.6% Central_Greek + 5.4% Iranian_Jewish @ 2.25
    4 94.4% Central_Greek + 5.6% Assyrian @ 2.25
    5 94.8% Central_Greek + 5.2% Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.28
    6 93% Central_Greek + 7% Turkish @ 2.29
    7 94.5% Central_Greek + 5.5% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.3
    8 94.7% Central_Greek + 5.3% Azeri @ 2.31
    9 95.5% Central_Greek + 4.5% Kurdish @ 2.31
    10 93.6% Central_Greek + 6.4% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.34
    11 95.8% Central_Greek + 4.2% Iranian @ 2.35
    12 88.8% Central_Greek + 11.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.35
    13 95.3% Central_Greek + 4.7% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.36
    14 92.7% Central_Greek + 7.3% Cyprian @ 2.38
    15 96.1% Central_Greek + 3.9% Turkmen @ 2.39
    16 97.6% Central_Greek + 2.4% Makrani @ 2.4
    17 93.4% South_Italian + 6.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.41
    18 95.4% Central_Greek + 4.6% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.42
    19 98% Central_Greek + 2% Sindhi @ 2.43
    20 98.5% Central_Greek + 1.5% Velamas @ 2.43

    #2:
    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 30.43
    2 West_Med 20.05
    3 West_Asian 16.51
    4 North_Atlantic 14.38
    5 Baltic 12.45
    6 Red_Sea 4.05
    7 Siberian 1.56
    8 Sub-Saharan 0.36
    9 Oceanian 0.21

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Central_Greek 3.89
    2 East_Sicilian 5.33
    3 South_Italian 7.12
    4 Ashkenazi 7.43
    5 Greek_Thessaly 8.22
    6 Italian_Abruzzo 8.26
    7 West_Sicilian 9.48
    8 Sephardic_Jewish 12.36
    9 Algerian_Jewish 12.43
    10 Italian_Jewish 12.66
    11 Tuscan 14.48
    12 Cyprian 15.51
    13 Tunisian_Jewish 15.65
    14 Bulgarian 15.79
    15 Libyan_Jewish 16.38
    16 Turkish 17.98
    17 Romanian 18.24
    18 Lebanese_Muslim 18.66
    19 Syrian 19.99
    20 North_Italian 20.24

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 54.1% Cyprian + 45.9% Romanian @ 2.25
    2 50.5% Cyprian + 49.5% Bulgarian @ 2.27
    3 66.3% Greek_Thessaly + 33.7% Cyprian @ 2.73
    4 59.5% Cyprian + 40.5% Serbian @ 2.76
    5 69.8% Cyprian + 30.2% East_German @ 3.08
    6 66.8% Cyprian + 33.2% Hungarian @ 3.16
    7 75.5% Greek_Thessaly + 24.5% Assyrian @ 3.23
    8 68.4% Cyprian + 31.6% Austrian @ 3.3
    9 76.8% Greek_Thessaly + 23.2% Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.37
    10 92.8% Central_Greek + 7.2% Georgian_Jewish @ 3.4
    11 93.8% Central_Greek + 6.2% Kumyk @ 3.42
    12 97.4% Central_Greek + 2.6% Selkup @ 3.43
    13 92.7% Central_Greek + 7.3% Assyrian @ 3.43
    14 96.4% Central_Greek + 3.6% Mari @ 3.44
    15 92.8% Central_Greek + 7.2% Azeri @ 3.45
    16 94.1% Central_Greek + 5.9% Iranian @ 3.45
    17 90.8% Central_Greek + 9.2% Turkish @ 3.46
    18 64.7% Cyprian + 35.3% Moldavian @ 3.47
    19 67.2% Cyprian + 32.8% Croatian @ 3.47
    20 75.6% Greek_Thessaly + 24.4% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.47

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    “This all could certainly be plausible but I would just question then, why in the case of #1 and #4, did Greece itself not see significant settlement from Greek speaking West Asia? Why is there almost no Levantine ancestry in mainland Greece if we are now assuming Calabria acquired theirs in part from Greek-speaking Levantines who migrated west? What was going on in Greece to make them skip right over it?”


    After Justinian re-conquered italy the land and fields were burned and abandoned.
    There was documented wide spread famine and low population with Byzantine controlled Italy having no economy for a time.
    The Next phase was Justinian’s re population of Southern Italy.
    It’s mentioned that he moved whole Greek speaking Armenian populations to Southern Italy but I imagine there would have been migrations to Italy from Greeks speaking populations from poorer parts of all over Byzantine Empire,Anatolian Greek,Syrian Greek,levantine Greeks,stretching down to eygypt Alexandria etc.
    Maybe mainland established Greeks had little incentive to migrate to Italy at this time.
    And in turn these migrants who were moved to Southern Italy may have not been wanted in mainland Greece.
    Hence the lower Levantine affinity of mainland Greece yet higher Levantine affinity amongst Calabrians who were later a Byzantine era Greek Genetic isolate of this ancestry + Calabria’s Rich Jewish history and no doubt another Byzantine re-population community with Levantine affinity.
    Last edited by Claudio; 07-04-2018 at 07:36 PM.

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