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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targum View Post
    As to the chronology of the two "seed" communities of Western Jews; Romaniote and Italqim. These are the two original Jewish communities in Europe. They are distinct, but both result from the original migration of Jews from Israel to the Greek-speaking world of the time. When Jews first came to Greece, the Italic identity had not yet become "Roman". The Jews in Rome proper, developed this identity as Italqim via the Roman host culture. The Romaniote developed a Judeo-Greek culture and language (Yevanic-Judeo-Greek written in Hebrew, like Yiddish, Ladino and Yemenite Judeo-Arabic). So technically the Romaniote were in place earlier, even though the Romaniote distinctiveness also developed over history and was subject to the evolutionary influences of being under the Christian-Byzantine avatar of Greek culture, obviously not the same as the Classical Greek world to which the Jews first came. Once Italqim and the Roman culture were in place, these two communities developed separately, though like all Jews remained in contact. The later ethnogenesis of Ashkenazi, Sefaradi, and Syrian Jews( Western Jews grafted onto musta'arib Jews in place from Israel) was an outgrowth of both of them and both are the ancestors of Western Jews.
    Yep. Also worth mentioning that there were Greek-speaking Romaniote community in S. Italy - and not the other way around (there was no documented Italkim communities in the Eastern Mediterranean). See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italia...o-Italian_Jews

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Jews may have a partial Arabian ancestry from ancient times going by autosomal and their haplogroup J frequency.
    There's only one branch of J1 among Ashkenazi Jews which can be securely labeled Arabian, namely ZS2102 which is a branch of FGC8712 exactly like L859 (the main Hashemite branch). This might actually be Nabatean in origin, if it isn't older that is.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by giorgio View Post
    Calabrians, Sicilians are primarily Barchin Neolithic or Anatolian EBA with Italic and secondary input from other areas. ie. Aberesche in some regions or Arabic/Maghrebi in some.
    Dodecanese are the most Eastern shifted region of Greece (geography speaking would be part of Anatolia rather Europe) so their gedmatch scores aren't that surprising.. Calabria on the other hand is more outlying for their region expecting them to be more Western shifted than Greek Islanders but a lot are just as Near East shifted as the most outlying Greek Islands.

    For example a Dodecanese Greek from Karpathos gets very similar to South Italians but have East European admixture instead of the Western European which captures the Continental European ancestry in Sicilians.

    # Population Percent
    1 SW_Europe 34.13
    2 West_Asia 27.62
    3 SW_Asia 20.57
    4 NE_Europe 13.58
    5 Siberia 1.08
    6 South_Asia 1.08
    7 NE_Asia 0.9
    8 West_Africa 0.69
    9 Oceania 0.34

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sephardic_Jew 4.86
    2 Ashkenazy_Jew 7.12
    3 Italian_Sicilian 7.42
    4 Cypriot 9.07
    5 Turkish 10.56
    6 Greek_Central 11.19
    7 Italian_Abruzzo 11.91
    8 Syrian 12.09
    9 Lebanese_Christian 12.28
    10 Turkish_Kayseri 12.34
    11 Lebanese_Druze 12.83
    12 Lebanese_Muslim 13.61
    13 Jordanian 13.76
    14 Turkish_Aydin 14.2
    15 Palestinian 16.4
    16 Greek_Thessaly 16.65
    17 Albanian 17.26
    18 Azerbaijan_Azeri 18.1
    19 Assyrian 18.34
    20 Samaritan_Jew 18.35

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 69.9% Sephardic_Jew + 30.1% Turkish @ 1.91
    2 69.4% Lebanese_Muslim + 30.6% Spaniard @ 1.96
    3 73.3% Sephardic_Jew + 26.7% Turkish_Kayseri @ 1.96
    4 76.1% Sephardic_Jew + 23.9% Turkish_Aydin @ 2
    5 51.6% Albanian + 48.4% Samaritan_Jew @ 2.06
    6 70.7% Lebanese_Druze + 29.3% Spaniard @ 2.15
    7 52.5% Greek_Thessaly + 47.5% Samaritan_Jew @ 2.16
    8 71.7% Lebanese_Christian + 28.3% Spaniard @ 2.2
    9 66.8% Ashkenazy_Jew + 33.2% Jordanian @ 2.25
    10 70.6% Ashkenazy_Jew + 29.4% Palestinian @ 2.26
    11 80.7% Sephardic_Jew + 19.3% Azerbaijan_Azeri @ 2.29
    12 84.7% Sephardic_Jew + 15.3% Iranian @ 2.3
    13 62.5% Greek_Central + 37.5% Samaritan_Jew @ 2.36
    14 74.3% Lebanese_Christian + 25.7% French @ 2.38
    15 67.6% Lebanese_Christian + 32.4% Italian_Bergamo @ 2.39
    16 61.2% Lebanese_Christian + 38.8% Italian_Tuscan @ 2.4
    17 84.5% Sephardic_Jew + 15.5% Dagestan_Azeri @ 2.46
    18 50.1% Samaritan_Jew + 49.9% Kosovar @ 2.48
    19 83.8% Sephardic_Jew + 16.2% Kurdish @ 2.49
    20 58.7% Lebanese_Christian + 41.3% Albanian @ 2.5


    South Aegean didn't receive any noticeable Jewish or Levantine input still look at how East Mediterranean shifted and this is likely to be Anatolia EBA rather direct Levant ancestry. This sample is basically zero Mainland Greek like and would fall in the Anatolian Greek cluster as expected for East Aegean heavily colonized by Ionian Greeks and lack the Steppe, Balkanic input.
    It actually must be Levantine , and not Anatolia EBA, for several reasons. First, Lazardis et al. shows exactly this - that there is Near Eastern admixture among Greeks, and it's more substantial among Aegean Greeks than among mainland Greeks.

    Second, look at the distances of what you've posted:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sephardic_Jew 4.86
    2 Ashkenazy_Jew 7.12
    3 Italian_Sicilian 7.42
    4 Cypriot 9.07
    5 Turkish 10.56
    6 Greek_Central 11.19
    7 Italian_Abruzzo 11.91
    8 Syrian 12.09
    9 Lebanese_Christian 12.28
    10 Turkish_Kayseri 12.34
    11 Lebanese_Druze 12.83
    12 Lebanese_Muslim 13.61
    13 Jordanian 13.76
    14 Turkish_Aydin 14.2
    15 Palestinian 16.4
    16 Greek_Thessaly 16.65
    17 Albanian 17.26
    18 Azerbaijan_Azeri 18.1
    19 Assyrian 18.34
    20 Samaritan_Jew 18.35

    Western Jews, Christian Lebanese, Syrians and Druze - all Levantines - are pretty high on the list (relatively speaking). Western Jews score HIGHER than other known Aegean-mixed people - such as Sicilians and Cypriots.

    According to the model I've found - all of these Levantines have Aegean admixture (Mycenean-like and Minoan-like), of about 30-25%. Western Jews seem to have 50% Aegean admixture. The distances of the Levantine populations you've got actually seem to go according to the amount of Aegean admixture. And where are Samaritans? they are the lowest - at a distance of @ 18. Yet, Samaritans and Jews and Lebanese all derive from the same BA Levantines - the only difference is that Samaritans seem to have zero Aegean admixture (probably because they didn't proselytize and also developed an identity before Christianity - so they didn't mixed with Byzantine Greeks later on). Samaritans even get bigger distance than Assyrians, which are by no means Levantines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by giorgio View Post
    Calabrians, Sicilians are primarily Barchin Neolithic or Anatolian EBA with Italic and secondary input from other areas. ie. Aberesche in some regions or Arabic/Maghrebi in some.
    Dodecanese are the most Eastern shifted region of Greece (geography speaking would be part of Anatolia rather Europe) so their gedmatch scores aren't that surprising.. Calabria on the other hand is more outlying for their region expecting them to be more Western shifted than Greek Islanders but a lot are just as Near East shifted as the most outlying Greek Islands.

    For example a Dodecanese Greek from Karpathos gets very similar to South Italians but have East European admixture instead of the Western European which captures the Continental European ancestry in Sicilians.

    # Population Percent
    1 SW_Europe 34.13
    2 West_Asia 27.62
    3 SW_Asia 20.57
    4 NE_Europe 13.58
    5 Siberia 1.08
    6 South_Asia 1.08
    7 NE_Asia 0.9
    8 West_Africa 0.69
    9 Oceania 0.34

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sephardic_Jew 4.86
    2 Ashkenazy_Jew 7.12
    3 Italian_Sicilian 7.42
    4 Cypriot 9.07
    5 Turkish 10.56
    6 Greek_Central 11.19
    7 Italian_Abruzzo 11.91
    8 Syrian 12.09
    9 Lebanese_Christian 12.28
    10 Turkish_Kayseri 12.34
    11 Lebanese_Druze 12.83
    12 Lebanese_Muslim 13.61
    13 Jordanian 13.76
    14 Turkish_Aydin 14.2
    15 Palestinian 16.4
    16 Greek_Thessaly 16.65
    17 Albanian 17.26
    18 Azerbaijan_Azeri 18.1
    19 Assyrian 18.34
    20 Samaritan_Jew 18.35

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 69.9% Sephardic_Jew + 30.1% Turkish @ 1.91
    2 69.4% Lebanese_Muslim + 30.6% Spaniard @ 1.96
    3 73.3% Sephardic_Jew + 26.7% Turkish_Kayseri @ 1.96
    4 76.1% Sephardic_Jew + 23.9% Turkish_Aydin @ 2
    5 51.6% Albanian + 48.4% Samaritan_Jew @ 2.06
    6 70.7% Lebanese_Druze + 29.3% Spaniard @ 2.15
    7 52.5% Greek_Thessaly + 47.5% Samaritan_Jew @ 2.16
    8 71.7% Lebanese_Christian + 28.3% Spaniard @ 2.2
    9 66.8% Ashkenazy_Jew + 33.2% Jordanian @ 2.25
    10 70.6% Ashkenazy_Jew + 29.4% Palestinian @ 2.26
    11 80.7% Sephardic_Jew + 19.3% Azerbaijan_Azeri @ 2.29
    12 84.7% Sephardic_Jew + 15.3% Iranian @ 2.3
    13 62.5% Greek_Central + 37.5% Samaritan_Jew @ 2.36
    14 74.3% Lebanese_Christian + 25.7% French @ 2.38
    15 67.6% Lebanese_Christian + 32.4% Italian_Bergamo @ 2.39
    16 61.2% Lebanese_Christian + 38.8% Italian_Tuscan @ 2.4
    17 84.5% Sephardic_Jew + 15.5% Dagestan_Azeri @ 2.46
    18 50.1% Samaritan_Jew + 49.9% Kosovar @ 2.48
    19 83.8% Sephardic_Jew + 16.2% Kurdish @ 2.49
    20 58.7% Lebanese_Christian + 41.3% Albanian @ 2.5


    South Aegean didn't receive any noticeable Jewish or Levantine input still look at how East Mediterranean shifted and this is likely to be Anatolia EBA rather direct Levant ancestry. This sample is basically zero Mainland Greek like and would fall in the Anatolian Greek cluster as expected for East Aegean heavily colonized by Ionian Greeks and lack the Steppe, Balkanic input.

    What I have noticed is that the North Aegean islands, Cyclades islands, and western Crete are genetically somewhat shifted toward mainland Greece and are similar to Apulians and to the least Near Eastern of Sicilians, while the South Aegean and eastern Crete are closer to Calabria and to the more Near Eastern shifted of Sicilians. But I would say overall both North and South Aegean are still closer to south Italy than to mainland Greece.


    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    It actually must be Levantine , and not Anatolia EBA, for several reasons. First, Lazardis et al. shows exactly this - that there is Near Eastern admixture among Greeks, and it's more substantial among Aegean Greeks than among mainland Greeks.

    Second, look at the distances of what you've posted:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sephardic_Jew 4.86
    2 Ashkenazy_Jew 7.12
    3 Italian_Sicilian 7.42
    4 Cypriot 9.07
    5 Turkish 10.56
    6 Greek_Central 11.19
    7 Italian_Abruzzo 11.91
    8 Syrian 12.09
    9 Lebanese_Christian 12.28
    10 Turkish_Kayseri 12.34
    11 Lebanese_Druze 12.83
    12 Lebanese_Muslim 13.61
    13 Jordanian 13.76
    14 Turkish_Aydin 14.2
    15 Palestinian 16.4
    16 Greek_Thessaly 16.65
    17 Albanian 17.26
    18 Azerbaijan_Azeri 18.1
    19 Assyrian 18.34
    20 Samaritan_Jew 18.35

    Western Jews, Christian Lebanese, Syrians and Druze - all Levantines - are pretty high on the list (relatively speaking). Western Jews score HIGHER than other known Aegean-mixed people - such as Sicilians and Cypriots.

    According to the model I've found - all of these Levantines have Aegean admixture (Mycenean-like and Minoan-like), of about 30-25%. Western Jews seem to have 50% Aegean admixture. The distances of the Levantine populations you've got actually seem to go according to the amount of Aegean admixture. And where are Samaritans? they are the lowest - at a distance of @ 18. Yet, Samaritans and Jews and Lebanese all derive from the same BA Levantines - the only difference is that Samaritans seem to have zero Aegean admixture (probably because they didn't proselytize and also developed an identity before Christianity - so they didn't mixed with Byzantine Greeks later on). Samaritans even get bigger distance than Assyrians, which are by no means Levantines.


    For comparison here is a Calabrese person who is on my relatives list:

    # Population Percent
    1 SW_Europe 36.84
    2 West_Asia 24.35
    3 SW_Asia 21.2
    4 NE_Europe 14.04
    5 Oceania 1.08
    6 SE_Asia 0.88
    7 West_Africa 0.83
    8 NE_Asia 0.4
    9 East_Africa 0.33
    10 Siberia 0.06

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sephardic_Jew 2.64
    2 Italian_Sicilian 5.79
    3 Ashkenazy_Jew 5.95
    4 Italian_Abruzzo 10.14
    5 Greek_Central 10.76
    6 Cypriot 11.08
    7 Turkish 14.64
    8 Lebanese_Christian 15.02
    9 Syrian 15.16
    10 Greek_Thessaly 15.57
    11 Jordanian 15.8
    12 Lebanese_Druze 15.97
    13 Albanian 16.08
    14 Turkish_Kayseri 16.46
    15 Lebanese_Muslim 16.73
    16 Kosovar 17.35
    17 Italian_Tuscan 17.35
    18 Turkish_Aydin 17.92
    19 Palestinian 18.35
    20 Samaritan_Jew 20.09

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 97.8% Sephardic_Jew + 2.2% Visayan @ 1.95
    2 98.6% Sephardic_Jew + 1.4% Papuan @ 1.97
    3 97.8% Sephardic_Jew + 2.2% Malayan @ 1.99
    4 98% Sephardic_Jew + 2% Luzon @ 2.02
    5 97.9% Sephardic_Jew + 2.1% Filipino @ 2.04
    6 98.1% Sephardic_Jew + 1.9% Dusun @ 2.05
    7 97.7% Sephardic_Jew + 2.3% Cambodian @ 2.05
    8 98.1% Sephardic_Jew + 1.9% Murut @ 2.07
    9 97.7% Sephardic_Jew + 2.3% Thai @ 2.09
    10 98% Sephardic_Jew + 2% Dai @ 2.09
    11 98% Sephardic_Jew + 2% Vietnamese @ 2.11
    12 98% Sephardic_Jew + 2% Lahu @ 2.13
    13 97.8% Sephardic_Jew + 2.2% Kikuyu @ 2.14
    14 98.5% Sephardic_Jew + 1.5% Igorot @ 2.15
    15 98.4% Sephardic_Jew + 1.6% Gambian @ 2.17
    16 97.9% Sephardic_Jew + 2.1% Burmese @ 2.17
    17 98.5% Sephardic_Jew + 1.5% Mandinka @ 2.18
    18 98.5% Sephardic_Jew + 1.5% Bantu_SW @ 2.18
    19 98.4% Sephardic_Jew + 1.6% Kaba @ 2.18
    20 98.3% Sephardic_Jew + 1.7% Bantu_SE @ 2.18



    Here is a Sicilian from Palermo... similar to the Calabrese and to the Dodecanese person except for they get Tunisian on their list, also which is likely reflective of Arab era mixture:

    # Population Percent
    1 SW_Europe 38.49
    2 West_Asia 24.78
    3 SW_Asia 18.27
    4 NE_Europe 12.37
    5 South_Asia 1.69
    6 West_Africa 1.42
    7 East_Africa 1.24
    8 Siberia 0.75
    9 South_Africa 0.59
    10 SE_Asia 0.27
    11 NE_Asia 0.14

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sephardic_Jew 3.77
    2 Italian_Sicilian 4.14
    3 Ashkenazy_Jew 5.37
    4 Italian_Abruzzo 9.71
    5 Greek_Central 10.63
    6 Cypriot 10.78
    7 Turkish 14.32
    8 Greek_Thessaly 15.34
    9 Syrian 15.56
    10 Lebanese_Christian 15.67
    11 Albanian 15.9
    12 Turkish_Kayseri 16.09
    13 Lebanese_Druze 16.31
    14 Jordanian 16.95
    15 Italian_Tuscan 17.1
    16 Lebanese_Muslim 17.14
    17 Kosovar 17.3
    18 Turkish_Aydin 17.75
    19 Palestinian 19.66
    20 Tunisian 21.13

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 83.7% Italian_Sicilian + 16.3% Jordanian @ 2.56
    2 85.8% Italian_Sicilian + 14.2% Palestinian @ 2.6
    3 86.8% Italian_Sicilian + 13.2% Samaritan_Jew @ 2.61
    4 88.6% Italian_Sicilian + 11.4% Egyptian_Copts @ 2.67
    5 88.6% Italian_Sicilian + 11.4% Egyptian @ 2.75
    6 90.7% Italian_Sicilian + 9.3% Yemeni @ 2.85
    7 83.7% Italian_Sicilian + 16.3% Syrian @ 2.87
    8 83.9% Italian_Sicilian + 16.1% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.91
    9 97.3% Sephardic_Jew + 2.7% Luo @ 2.93
    10 85.3% Italian_Sicilian + 14.7% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.94
    11 97.4% Sephardic_Jew + 2.6% Bantu_NE @ 2.95
    12 97.3% Sephardic_Jew + 2.7% Mada @ 2.95
    13 97.4% Sephardic_Jew + 2.6% Bantu_SE @ 2.95
    14 97.4% Sephardic_Jew + 2.6% Kaba @ 2.95
    15 92.8% Italian_Sicilian + 7.2% Saudi @ 2.97
    16 84.8% Italian_Sicilian + 15.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.99
    17 97.7% Sephardic_Jew + 2.3% Bantu_SW @ 3
    18 96.5% Sephardic_Jew + 3.5% Fulani @ 3
    19 97.4% Sephardic_Jew + 2.6% Biaka_Pygmy @ 3.01
    20 93.8% Italian_Sicilian + 6.2% Bedouin @ 3.02


    And here is a Greek from the North Aegean islands (Chios), as you see they are still closer to south Italians overall but they are definitely less Levantine/Near Eastern than Sicilians, Dodecanese, or Ashkenazim.

    # Population Percent
    1 SW_Europe 35.38
    2 West_Asia 27
    3 NE_Europe 19.43
    4 SW_Asia 14.92
    5 Siberia 1.77
    6 East_Africa 0.51
    7 South_Africa 0.47
    8 Oceania 0.24
    9 West_Africa 0.16
    10 South_Asia 0.13

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Greek_Central 4.17
    2 Ashkenazy_Jew 4.4
    3 Italian_Sicilian 5.93
    4 Italian_Abruzzo 6.57
    5 Sephardic_Jew 8.44
    6 Greek_Thessaly 9.71
    7 Albanian 10.42
    8 Kosovar 11.43
    9 Turkish 12.47
    10 Italian_Tuscan 12.81
    11 Turkish_Aydin 14.45
    12 Cypriot 14.83
    13 Turkish_Kayseri 15.15
    14 Bulgarian 15.8
    15 Macedonian 16.4
    16 Romanian 17.6
    17 Balkar 17.88
    18 Syrian 18.57
    19 Montenegrin 18.58
    20 Italian_Bergamo 19.03

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 69.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 30.5% Turkish_Aydin @ 1.85
    2 66.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 33.8% Turkish @ 1.87
    3 80.2% Greek_Central + 19.8% Turkish_Kayseri @ 1.91
    4 83.8% Greek_Central + 16.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 1.95
    5 65.1% Albanian + 34.9% Lebanese_Druze @ 1.97
    6 84.4% Greek_Central + 15.6% Lebanese_Muslim @ 1.97
    7 83.4% Greek_Central + 16.6% Syrian @ 1.99
    8 77.2% Greek_Central + 22.8% Turkish @ 2.04
    9 77.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 22.8% Ossetian @ 2.05
    10 83.9% Greek_Central + 16.1% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.06
    11 66.8% Greek_Thessaly + 33.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.06
    12 83.3% Ashkenazy_Jew + 16.7% Kumyk @ 2.08
    13 69.3% Albanian + 30.7% Assyrian @ 2.09
    14 62.9% Kosovar + 37.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.1
    15 66.1% Albanian + 33.9% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.12
    16 76.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 23.7% Azerbaijan_Azeri @ 2.13
    17 70.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 29.3% Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.15
    18 67.8% Greek_Thessaly + 32.2% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.16
    19 86.6% Greek_Central + 13.4% Assyrian @ 2.19
    20 64% Kosovar + 36% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    According to the model I've found - all of these Levantines have Aegean admixture (Mycenean-like and Minoan-like), of about 30-25%. Western Jews seem to have 50% Aegean admixture. The distances of the Levantine populations you've got actually seem to go according to the amount of Aegean admixture. And where are Samaritans? they are the lowest - at a distance of @ 18. Yet, Samaritans and Jews and Lebanese all derive from the same BA Levantines - the only difference is that Samaritans seem to have zero Aegean admixture (probably because they didn't proselytize and also developed an identity before Christianity - so they didn't mixed with Byzantine Greeks later on). Samaritans even get bigger distance than Assyrians, which are by no means Levantines.

    Again, Aegean people were the recipient of a wave of migration also populating southern Italy and the Levant, from Anatolia. Calling it "Aegean" ancestry incorrectly portrays the direction of the gene flow.
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 06-08-2018 at 10:41 PM.

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  8. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I'm also not claiming that there is no Levantine ancestry to Western Jews. On the contrary - I claim it's about 30%-35%.
    I think it's important to make a distinction here between Bronze Age Levantine ancestry and Second Temple Levantine ancestry. From what I gather, part of your argument is that some, if not most, of the theoretical Aegean admixture in Western Jews entered while still in the Levant. Therefore, Second Temple Levantine would already include this admixture, and presumably it would have similarly impacted other Levantine groups (except Samaritans), right? So, while it definitely might be true that Western Jews are 30-35% Bronze Age Levantine, if your theory is true, then they are still 50-60% Second Temple Levantine.

    The genetic makeup of "Levantine" has always been changing. Obviously as you've shown, Bronze Age Levant is quite different from Neolithic Levant, which is quite different from Natufian.

    Maybe this seems obvious, but I just wanted to point it out...
    Last edited by jonahst; 06-08-2018 at 11:19 PM.

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    Double post
    Last edited by jonahst; 06-08-2018 at 11:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    There's only one branch of J1 among Ashkenazi Jews which can be securely labeled Arabian, namely ZS2102 which is a branch of FGC8712 exactly like L859 (the main Hashemite branch). This might actually be Nabatean in origin, if it isn't older that is.
    But it does seem like Jews (Ashkenazim and Sephardim) as well as Sicilians/Calabrese and Cypriots have some level of SW Asian/Arabian ancestry that cannot be explained without either Arabian ancestry, or their Levantine source population being on the higher end for SW Asian. Especially Ashkenazim and Sicilians, whose SW Asian to Caucasus ratio implies a SW Asian-heavy input.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    no
    we have levantine ancestery not arabian
    i score 0% arabian in livingdna but i do score significant levantine
    same goes for johns who is full aschenazi he score only 1-1.5% arabia in living dna extremely low .....
    In all fairness, a Bahraini girl also got 0% Arabian. I wouldn't take their labels too literally

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    Quote Originally Posted by giorgio View Post
    Calabrians, Sicilians are primarily Barchin Neolithic or Anatolian EBA with Italic and secondary input from other areas. ie. Aberesche in some regions or Arabic/Maghrebi in some.
    I think this is where we see a difference between northeastern, southeastern, and western-central Sicily. Southeast Sicily clearly has elevated Steppe compared to the rest of the island which could very well have come from Doric Greeks and/or a more recent Greek migration that already contained Slavic ancestry -- the same would be true for Apulia. This makes sense in the context of knowing that under Arab rule, the southeast of Sicily was still heavily Greek speaking and Christian and received continued Greek settlement, and was also the region that in ancient times had never been Phoenician nor Carthaginian.

    It is also clear that, even if you maintain they have absorbed some admixture, northeast Sicily has a more Neolithic genetic profile more consistent with an older population strain that was heavy in Caucasus and Anatolian Neolithic ancestry while not having as much SW Asian/North African/Arabian. If you see genetic results from western and central Sicily, there are some people who have quite high SW Asian/North African, but lower Caucasus, which would imply ancestry from a population high in Afroasiatic ancestry but low in Caucasus. This could be North Africans, Arabians, southern Levantines, or all of the above or even a migration we do not know about yet. But it is clear that of the three corners of Sicily, the northeast has absorbed comparatively less foreign input.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    In all fairness, a Bahraini girl also got 0% Arabian. I wouldn't take their labels too literally
    Yes. LivingDNA is not the most reliable of the tests in my view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    I think it's important to make a distinction here between Bronze Age Levantine ancestry and Second Temple Levantine ancestry. From what I gather, part of your argument is that some, if not most, of the theoretical Aegean admixture in Western Jews entered while still in the Levant. Therefore, Second Temple Levantine would already include this admixture, and presumably it would have similarly impacted other Levantine groups (except Samaritans), right? So, while it definitely might be true that Western Jews are 30-35% Bronze Age Levantine, if your theory is true, then they are still 50-60% Second Temple Levantine.

    The genetic makeup of "Levantine" has always been changing. Obviously as you're shown, Bronze Age Levant is quite different from Neolithic Levant, which is quite different from Natufian.

    Maybe this seems obvious, but I just wanted to point it out...

    There is also a difference between the northern and southern Levant, likely on a gradient where Caucasus-related ancestry increases as you go north and SW Asian ancestry decreases and vice versa. What I am proposing is Jews descend from a Levantine population that was one of the heavier on the SW Asian side.

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