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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Trapani and Syracuse are a bit divergent but only slightly (they still plot south of Peloponnesians, as a point of reference). I would say based on what I have seen, Syracuse is more divergent than is Trapani from the Sicilian average.
    trapani cluster with abruzzo no ?
    both regions have northwest european elements that pushes them north compare to other parts of sicily and calabria

    p.s
    or i didn't learn nothing from reading your posts in the last year

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    Using Eurogenes K36, the Greek woman from 500 AD is not very similar to modern South Italians actually.

    Compare her:

    to these Sicilians. First is from Caltanissetta, second from Messina...


    And here is one from Palermo, they match very well with Crete, but the ancient Greek woman was further:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Using Eurogenes K36, the Greek woman from 500 AD is not very similar to modern South Italians actually.

    Compare her:



    to these Sicilians. First is from Caltanissetta, second from Messina...






    And here is one from Palermo, they match very well with Crete, but the ancient Greek woman was further:
    she was greek for sure i am now convinced
    which italian group socre 10% east balkan in k36 ?
    it is close to albanian % for this element

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    trapani cluster with abruzzo no ?
    both regions have northwest european elements that pushes them north compare to other parts of sicily and calabria

    p.s
    or i didn't learn nothing from reading your posts in the last year
    Trapani and Syracuse have less Caucasus and more North European, both east and west. So yes, they are a bit closer to Abruzzo and mainland Greeks.

    I have noticed a lot of the more Near Eastern shifted results come from the inland regions, I am not sure why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Can I ask where you obtained your samples and which tool was used? ... Can we add more regional clusters for Greeks?
    I used PAST, and the data is from Dave W.'s Global25 project. You can download the relevant file from his blog. He adds academic samples to the data sheet all the time. If there are any publicly-available genomes of sufficient quality out there for Greek islanders, all you gotta do is let him know and I'm sure he'd be happy to add them. Good luck finding usable data, though. The genomes from the Sarno paper are, sadly, not publicly-available, and I'm not sure if the coverage would meet Dave's requirements anyway. He's very scrupulous about quality. Case in point: he removed the Bronze Age Sidon genomes from the project files because he thought something was dodgy about them. I kept them on my copy for shits and giggles.

    He does offer personal Global25 coordinates for a fee. If there are any islanders out there interested to see where they'd plot, it'd be easy as sending him their genome data and a few ha'pennies. Obviously he won't release personal results to the general public so it would be up to the customer to share the coordinates with us. Unfortunately, I'm only half-Dodecanese so there isn't much point in me doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Where would Dodecanesians be? Somewhere intersecting Crete and Cyprus I would imagine.
    Yeah, that's what plenty of other PCAs posted on AG have shown, including Erikl's awesome work in this thread. Some islanders with more "Caucasus" ancestry would also be shifted toward Anatolian populations like Cappadocian Greeks. It's common knowledge here that Southern Europe and the Near East are connected in an almost unbroken line via the East Med populations: Sephardic Jews and Aegean Greeks lead into Syrian Jews and Cypriots who lead into Lebanese, yadda yadda. But in pre-Turkic times I think there was another cline connecting the Caucasus to Eastern Anatolia to Western Anatolia to the Aegean. If the Turks didn't have East/Central Asian admixture, I think they would occupy this space.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Cypriots do appear on the graph, where they cluster with Anatolians and Cretans, but for some reason are painted in Levantine Green for no apparent reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Thanks Ericl86, I can indeed see this but just wanted a 'Greek Cypriot cluster' shown along with other regional Greeks. I think we have already established that the 'Levantine' tag is totally arbitrary and research papers show that its problematic vis a vis Lebanese, let alone Cypriots. So agree with you that the green colour is somewhat misleading, not to mention superfluous.
    I meant no disrespect to Cypriots (au contaire, I'm quite keen on them); I honestly just don't know what to make of their population history. Were there Levantine-type people (of any variety) already on Cyprus before the Greeks showed up? Or were the pre-Greek people living there identical to the Anatolia_BA samples? Maybe both types of ancestry were present. We have no Eteocypriot data so I don't want to make any assumptions. We do have ancient DNA from Crete so I'm more at ease speculating about it. The Minoans don't show much evidence of Levantine ancestry, and neither does that low-coverage Late Bronze Age Armenoi sample from the same study, if memory serves me. We don't have any ancient samples from the other Aegean islands, but they're so close to Crete I fully expect the pre-Greek inhabitants to be similar to Minoans or Bronze Age Anatolians. This leads me to hypothesize that the minor Levantine ancestry seen in the Aegean today probably showed up in the Iron Age or later. Could it have been Phoenicians? Roman-era movements from the Near East? Who knows?

    And by the way, it's not "Levantine green," guys; it's "West Asian green." What I posted is just a zoomed-in version of a Global25-based West Eurasian PCA colorized according to my preferences, with Italians and Jews removed for visibility.

    Here's the full PCA:

     


    As a rule, populations are colored according to geography. Cypriots are green because Cyprus is a part of West Asia. Nothing else is intended by the designation. If I had Dodecanese or Eastern Sporadean (Samos, Ikaria, Chios, Lesbos, etc.) samples I would also color them green because these areas are satellites of West Asia as far as I'm concerned. Like Turkey, Aegean Greece is transcontinental. Some islands are closer to the Balkans and others to Asia Minor. I think it's ridiculous to say Rhodes is a part of Europe geographically. It would be like saying Turkish Thrace is a part of Asia. Yeah, I admit to being a pedant...

     


     


    How I draw the line more generally for modern West Eurasians:

     


    I strictly adhere to geography unless coloring a group a certain way would estrange them too far away from the rest of the group associated with that color. I do this to keep things from looking too silly. That's why Ashkenazi are colored "Southern Euro red" despite technically forming in Northern Europe. Chechens et al are still "West Asian green" despite technically living on the European side of Caucasia. But that's about the extent of my exceptions. Some places in Central and Eastern Europe are not easily sorted as being northern or southern (like Croatia and Moldova), and the groups living in these regions are no less transitional genetically. I mostly share Dave's instincts about where to draw the line and so I've been quite faithful to his classification intuitions. Ancients are too diverse for me to bother with, so they're given a purely geographic treatment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Trapani and Syracuse have less Caucasus and more North European, both east and west. So yes, they are a bit closer to Abruzzo and mainland Greeks.

    I have noticed a lot of the more Near Eastern shifted results come from the inland regions, I am not sure why.
    how do explain the fact calabrians cluster even with sefhardi jews and more southern autosomally speaking than trapani
    and syracuse even though geographically speaking calabria is more northern than those regions in sicily ???

    p.s
    where is the italic ancestery in calabrians what about the brutti italic tribe ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    how do explain the fact calabrians cluster even with sefhardi jews and more southern autosomally speaking than trapani
    and syracuse even though geographically speaking calabria is more northern than those regions in sicily ???

    p.s
    where is the italic ancestery in calabrians what about the brutti italic tribe ?
    It's very reduced. Calabrians plot like Dodecanese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I used PAST, and the data is from Dave W.'s Global25 project. You can download the relevant file from his blog. He adds academic samples to the data sheet all the time. If there are any publicly-available genomes of sufficient quality out there for Greek islanders, all you gotta do is let him know and I'm sure he'd be happy to add them. Good luck finding usable data, though. The genomes from the Sarno paper are, sadly, not publicly-available, and I'm not sure if the coverage would meet Dave's requirements anyway. He's very scrupulous about quality. Case in point: he removed the Bronze Age Sidon genomes from the project files because he thought something was dodgy about them. I kept them on my copy for shits and giggles.

    He does offer personal Global25 coordinates for a fee. If there are any islanders out there interested to see where they'd plot, it'd be easy as sending him their genome data and a few ha'pennies. Obviously he won't release personal results to the general public so it would be up to the customer to share the coordinates with us. Unfortunately, I'm only half-Dodecanese so there isn't much point in me doing it.



    Yeah, that's what plenty of other PCAs posted on AG have shown, including Erikl's awesome work in this thread. Some islanders with more "Caucasus" ancestry would also be shifted toward Anatolian populations like Cappadocian Greeks. It's common knowledge here that Southern Europe and the Near East are connected in an almost unbroken line via the East Med populations: Sephardic Jews and Aegean Greeks lead into Syrian Jews and Cypriots who lead into Lebanese, yadda yadda. But in pre-Turkic times I think there was another cline connecting the Caucasus to Eastern Anatolia to Western Anatolia to the Aegean. If the Turks didn't have East/Central Asian admixture, I think they would occupy this space.





    I meant no disrespect to Cypriots (au contaire, I'm quite keen on them); I honestly just don't know what to make of their population history. Were there Levantine-type people (of any variety) already on Cyprus before the Greeks showed up? Or were the pre-Greek people living there identical to the Anatolia_BA samples? Maybe both types of ancestry were present. We have no Eteocypriot data so I don't want to make any assumptions. We do have ancient DNA from Crete so I'm more at ease speculating about it. The Minoans don't show much evidence of Levantine ancestry, and neither does that low-coverage Late Bronze Age Armenoi sample from the same study, if memory serves me. We don't have any ancient samples from the other Aegean islands, but they're so close to Crete I fully expect the pre-Greek inhabitants to be similar to Minoans or Bronze Age Anatolians. This leads me to hypothesize that the minor Levantine ancestry seen in the Aegean today probably showed up in the Iron Age or later. Could it have been Phoenicians? Roman-era movements from the Near East? Who knows?

    And by the way, it's not "Levantine green," guys; it's "West Asian green." What I posted is just a zoomed-in version of a Global25-based West Eurasian PCA colorized according to my preferences, with Italians and Jews removed for visibility.

    Here's the full PCA:

     


    As a rule, populations are colored according to geography. Cypriots are green because Cyprus is a part of West Asia. Nothing else is intended by the designation. If I had Dodecanese or Eastern Sporadean (Samos, Ikaria, Chios, Lesbos, etc.) samples I would also color them green because these areas are satellites of West Asia as far as I'm concerned. Like Turkey, Aegean Greece is transcontinental. Some islands are closer to the Balkans and others to Asia Minor. I think it's ridiculous to say Rhodes is a part of Europe geographically. It would be like saying Turkish Thrace is a part of Asia. Yeah, I admit to being a pedant...

     


     


    How I draw the line more generally for modern West Eurasians:

     


    I strictly adhere to geography unless coloring a group a certain way would estrange them too far away from the rest of the group associated with that color. I do this to keep things from looking too silly. That's why Ashkenazi are colored "Southern Euro red" despite technically forming in Northern Europe. Chechens et al are still "West Asian green" despite technically living on the European side of Caucasia. But that's about the extent of my exceptions. Some places in Central and Eastern Europe are not easily sorted as being northern or southern (like Croatia and Moldova), and the groups living in these regions are no less transitional genetically. I mostly share Dave's instincts about where to draw the line and so I've been quite faithful to his classification intuitions. Ancients are too diverse for me to bother with, so they're given a purely geographic treatment.

    To me Calabria, Sicily, and many Aegean islands cannot be called Southern Europe proper and are their own transitional cluster. I wouldn't call them just West Asia though.

    North Aegean islands like Chios and Samos also are shifted toward the mainland so I don't think they are "Asian" Greeks. They are not like the Dodecanese.
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 07-20-2018 at 01:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    how do explain the fact calabrians cluster even with sefhardi jews and more southern autosomally speaking than trapani
    and syracuse even though geographically speaking calabria is more northern than those regions in sicily ???

    p.s
    where is the italic ancestery in calabrians what about the brutti italic tribe ?
    One sample from Calabria

    MDLP K16 Modern
     
    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasian 42.66
    2 Neolithic 23.57
    3 Steppe 11.84
    4 NearEast 8.46
    5 NorthEastEuropean 6.81
    6 NorthAfrican 5.99
    7 Oceanic 0.37
    8 Australian 0.26
    9 Ancestor 0.04

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Jew (Ashkenazi) 4.58
    2 Jew (Bulgaria) 4.66
    3 Jew (Turkish_Sephardim) 5.27
    4 Jew (Italian) 5.44
    5 Jew (Ashkenazim) 5.49
    6 Jew (Sephardim) 5.6
    7 Jew (Turkey) 5.71
    8 Italian (SouthItaly) 5.91
    9 Greek (Greece) 6.08
    10 Greek (Athens) 6.7
    11 Sicilian (Sicily) 6.72
    12 Maltese (Malta) 6.8
    13 Jew (Algeria) 7.11
    14 Jew (Morocco) 7.41
    15 Jew (Ashkenazi) 8.13
    16 Italian (Abruzzo) 8.43
    17 Greek (Macedonia) 8.46
    18 Jew (Syria) 9.15
    19 Greek (Azov) 9.68
    20 Greek (Peloponnes) 10.14

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 74% Jew (Ashkenazi) + 26% Cypriot (Cyprus) @ 2.81
    2 56% Greek (Greece) + 44% Jew (Morocco) @ 2.86
    3 54.9% Greek (Greece) + 45.1% Jew (Algeria) @ 2.93
    4 87.5% Jew (Ashkenazi) + 12.5% Turk (Trabzon) @ 3.02
    5 77.7% Sicilian (Sicily) + 22.3% Armenian (Armenia) @ 3.11
    6 67% Italian (SouthItaly) + 33% Cypriot (Cyprus) @ 3.12
    7 77.5% Maltese (Malta) + 22.5% Armenian (Armenia) @ 3.14
    8 81.2% Italian (SouthItaly) + 18.8% Jew (Georgia) @ 3.15
    9 86.5% Jew (Ashkenazi) + 13.5% Armenian (Armenia) @ 3.17
    10 76.3% Italian (SouthItaly) + 23.7% Druze (Mount_Carmel) @ 3.21
    11 78.5% Sicilian (Sicily) + 21.5% Jew (Georgia) @ 3.22
    12 77.6% Italian (SouthItaly) + 22.4% Armenian (Vardnis) @ 3.23
    13 86.9% Jew (Ashkenazi) + 13.1% Jew (Georgia) @ 3.24
    14 83.3% Jew (Ashkenazi) + 16.7% Druze (Mount_Carmel) @ 3.27
    15 78.4% Sicilian (Sicily) + 21.6% Armenian (Armenia) @ 3.34
    16 69.2% Italian (SouthItaly) + 30.8% Lebanese_Christian (Lebanon) @ 3.34
    17 86.3% Jew (Ashkenazi) + 13.7% Georgian (Laz) @ 3.36
    18 71.1% Maltese (Malta) + 28.9% Armenian (Lebanon) @ 3.37
    19 81.3% Italian (SouthItaly) + 18.7% Armenian (Armenia) @ 3.38
    20 77.6% Italian (SouthItaly) + 22.4% Assyrian (Armenia) @ 3.4


    Eurogenes K13
     

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 35.16
    2 West_Med 21.14
    3 West_Asian 16.43
    4 North_Atlantic 10.2
    5 Baltic 8.55
    6 Red_Sea 6.8
    7 Amerindian 0.86
    8 Oceanian 0.52
    9 Northeast_African 0.32
    10 East_Asian 0.02

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 South_Italian 7.26
    2 East_Sicilian 7.6
    3 Ashkenazi 7.76
    4 Central_Greek 8.09
    5 Algerian_Jewish 8.25
    6 Sephardic_Jewish 8.79
    7 Italian_Jewish 9.04
    8 Cyprian 9.09
    9 Tunisian_Jewish 10.58
    10 Libyan_Jewish 11.36
    11 West_Sicilian 12.35
    12 Italian_Abruzzo 12.56
    13 Lebanese_Muslim 13.42
    14 Greek_Thessaly 14.2
    15 Syrian 14.87
    16 Samaritan 16.01
    17 Lebanese_Christian 17.03
    18 Turkish 17.48
    19 Lebanese_Druze 17.67
    20 Jordanian 17.81

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 61.2% Cyprian + 38.8% Greek_Thessaly @ 1.73
    2 71.7% Cyprian + 28.3% Bulgarian @ 2.41
    3 53.2% Central_Greek + 46.8% Cyprian @ 2.52
    4 73.9% Cyprian + 26.1% Romanian @ 2.55
    5 76.9% Cyprian + 23.1% Serbian @ 2.66
    6 68.8% Central_Greek + 31.2% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.75
    7 67.5% Central_Greek + 32.5% Samaritan @ 2.76
    8 81.2% Cyprian + 18.8% Croatian @ 2.79
    9 55.1% East_Sicilian + 44.9% Cyprian @ 2.83
    10 82.8% Cyprian + 17.2% East_German @ 2.84
    11 79.9% Cyprian + 20.1% Moldavian @ 2.95
    12 81.2% Cyprian + 18.8% Hungarian @ 2.96
    13 82.1% Cyprian + 17.9% Austrian @ 2.99
    14 84% Cyprian + 16% Ukrainian @ 3.16
    15 54.7% Greek_Thessaly + 45.3% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.18
    16 84% Cyprian + 16% South_Polish @ 3.2
    17 83.6% Cyprian + 16.4% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.2
    18 84.9% Cyprian + 15.1% Polish @ 3.22
    19 86.1% Cyprian + 13.9% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.36
    20 86.7% Cyprian + 13.3% Estonian @ 3.46


    Dodecad K12b
     

    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasus 37.53
    2 Atlantic_Med 23.79
    3 Southwest_Asian 14.39
    4 North_European 11.01
    5 Gedrosia 7.93
    6 Northwest_African 4.59
    7 Southeast_Asian 0.77

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 5.9
    2 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 6.13
    3 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 6.19
    4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.87
    5 Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.23
    6 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 9.68
    7 Greek (Dodecad) 11.63
    8 Cypriots (Behar) 13.19
    9 C_Italian (Dodecad) 14.23
    10 Turkish (Dodecad) 15.53
    11 Lebanese (Behar) 16.45
    12 O_Italian (Dodecad) 17.26
    13 Turks (Behar) 17.83
    14 Tuscan (HGDP) 18.29
    15 TSI30 (Metspalu) 19.5
    16 Druze (HGDP) 19.6
    17 Syrians (Behar) 19.68
    18 Jordanians (Behar) 20.85
    19 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 21.62
    20 Palestinian (HGDP) 22.62

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 75.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24.1% Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) @ 2.37
    2 53.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 46.3% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.4
    3 83.2% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 16.8% Iranians (Behar) @ 2.5
    4 82.3% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 17.7% Kurd (Dodecad) @ 2.65
    5 82.2% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 17.8% Kurds (Yunusbayev) @ 2.74
    6 78.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.1% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 2.82
    7 70.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 29.1% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.84
    8 83% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 17% Iranian (Dodecad) @ 2.92
    9 91.8% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 8.2% Makrani (HGDP) @ 2.94
    10 77.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.1% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 2.98
    11 72.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 27.6% Lebanese (Behar) @ 3
    12 92.2% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 7.8% Balochi (HGDP) @ 3.01
    13 92.8% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 7.2% Brahui (HGDP) @ 3.02
    14 79.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 20.4% Kurds (Yunusbayev) @ 3.07
    15 53.3% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 46.7% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.08
    16 56.7% Druze (HGDP) + 43.3% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 3.09
    17 62.5% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 37.5% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 3.1
    18 80% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 20% Kurd (Dodecad) @ 3.11
    19 52.7% Lebanese (Behar) + 47.3% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 3.13
    20 77.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.2% Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) @ 3.14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I used PAST, and the data is from Dave W.'s Global25 project. You can download the relevant file from his blog. He adds academic samples to the data sheet all the time. If there are any publicly-available genomes of sufficient quality out there for Greek islanders, all you gotta do is let him know and I'm sure he'd be happy to add them. Good luck finding usable data, though. The genomes from the Sarno paper are, sadly, not publicly-available, and I'm not sure if the coverage would meet Dave's requirements anyway. He's very scrupulous about quality. Case in point: he removed the Bronze Age Sidon genomes from the project files because he thought something was dodgy about them. I kept them on my copy for shits and giggles.

    He does offer personal Global25 coordinates for a fee. If there are any islanders out there interested to see where they'd plot, it'd be easy as sending him their genome data and a few ha'pennies. Obviously he won't release personal results to the general public so it would be up to the customer to share the coordinates with us. Unfortunately, I'm only half-Dodecanese so there isn't much point in me doing it.



    Yeah, that's what plenty of other PCAs posted on AG have shown, including Erikl's awesome work in this thread. Some islanders with more "Caucasus" ancestry would also be shifted toward Anatolian populations like Cappadocian Greeks. It's common knowledge here that Southern Europe and the Near East are connected in an almost unbroken line via the East Med populations: Sephardic Jews and Aegean Greeks lead into Syrian Jews and Cypriots who lead into Lebanese, yadda yadda. But in pre-Turkic times I think there was another cline connecting the Caucasus to Eastern Anatolia to Western Anatolia to the Aegean. If the Turks didn't have East/Central Asian admixture, I think they would occupy this space.





    I meant no disrespect to Cypriots (au contaire, I'm quite keen on them); I honestly just don't know what to make of their population history. Were there Levantine-type people (of any variety) already on Cyprus before the Greeks showed up? Or were the pre-Greek people living there identical to the Anatolia_BA samples? Maybe both types of ancestry were present. We have no Eteocypriot data so I don't want to make any assumptions. We do have ancient DNA from Crete so I'm more at ease speculating about it. The Minoans don't show much evidence of Levantine ancestry, and neither does that low-coverage Late Bronze Age Armenoi sample from the same study, if memory serves me. We don't have any ancient samples from the other Aegean islands, but they're so close to Crete I fully expect the pre-Greek inhabitants to be similar to Minoans or Bronze Age Anatolians. This leads me to hypothesize that the minor Levantine ancestry seen in the Aegean today probably showed up in the Iron Age or later. Could it have been Phoenicians? Roman-era movements from the Near East? Who knows?

    And by the way, it's not "Levantine green," guys; it's "West Asian green." What I posted is just a zoomed-in version of a Global25-based West Eurasian PCA colorized according to my preferences, with Italians and Jews removed for visibility.

    Here's the full PCA:

     


    As a rule, populations are colored according to geography. Cypriots are green because Cyprus is a part of West Asia. Nothing else is intended by the designation. If I had Dodecanese or Eastern Sporadean (Samos, Ikaria, Chios, Lesbos, etc.) samples I would also color them green because these areas are satellites of West Asia as far as I'm concerned. Like Turkey, Aegean Greece is transcontinental. Some islands are closer to the Balkans and others to Asia Minor. I think it's ridiculous to say Rhodes is a part of Europe geographically. It would be like saying Turkish Thrace is a part of Asia. Yeah, I admit to being a pedant...

     


     


    How I draw the line more generally for modern West Eurasians:

     


    I strictly adhere to geography unless coloring a group a certain way would estrange them too far away from the rest of the group associated with that color. I do this to keep things from looking too silly. That's why Ashkenazi are colored "Southern Euro red" despite technically forming in Northern Europe. Chechens et al are still "West Asian green" despite technically living on the European side of Caucasia. But that's about the extent of my exceptions. Some places in Central and Eastern Europe are not easily sorted as being northern or southern (like Croatia and Moldova), and the groups living in these regions are no less transitional genetically. I mostly share Dave's instincts about where to draw the line and so I've been quite faithful to his classification intuitions. Ancients are too diverse for me to bother with, so they're given a purely geographic treatment.
    I can respect geographic division, and thanks for a very detailed and enlightening post.

    However I disagree a bit with it. For example, Turks and Armenians cluster differently from Levantines and it is quite distinct. Both of them cluster differently than Greeks although some Greek populations do have overlap with some regions in Turkey - that has to do more with history and genetics and only coincidentally with geography.

    Cypriots, IMO, show on all PCAs an end to a continuous group which extends from South Italy to Cyprus.
    Both Sarno et al. and Heraclides et al talk about this. While it is true that Heraclides et al also finds some kinship with Anatolians, it was mainly Western Anatolians and the "West Asians" in that region historically were also mixed with South Europeans (Greeks, and not only Dodecanese).

    Take a look at this PCA from Lazirdis et al (also used in Sarno et al):


    It is quite visible that while some Cypriots plot close to Druze, the general "pattern" is towards Southern Europe.
    It doesn't matter what was the main component of the Eteocypriots - was it more Levantine/West Asian or more South European/Minoan-like - the end result today is that they are at the end of the "South European Continum" as Sarno et al put it.

    EDIT: I also tend to totally agree with these specific parts (bolded) of your post:
    Yeah, that's what plenty of other PCAs posted on AG have shown, including Erikl's awesome work in this thread. Some islanders with more "Caucasus" ancestry would also be shifted toward Anatolian populations like Cappadocian Greeks. It's common knowledge here that Southern Europe and the Near East are connected in an almost unbroken line via the East Med populations: Sephardic Jews and Aegean Greeks lead into Syrian Jews and Cypriots who lead into Lebanese, yadda yadda. But in pre-Turkic times I think there was another cline connecting the Caucasus to Eastern Anatolia to Western Anatolia to the Aegean. If the Turks didn't have East/Central Asian admixture, I think they would occupy this space.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 07-20-2018 at 02:21 PM.

  17. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Erikl86 For This Useful Post:

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