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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #1961
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Iceland and the rest of the North Atlantic are where it's at for me climate-wise - cool, doesn't feel like a swamp in the summer, and nice and overcast.

    Doesn't the sun burn you badly, though? :o The sun just hurts when I'm exposed to it.

    I have West Asian features myself but EXTREMELY pale skin. I burn to a crisp and peel. It is awful. I have the Polish skin from my grandfather.

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  3. #1962
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    Also, one other point I will note about phenotype and I am wondering who agrees, then I will cease to post about it because I know it is not the intention of this thread.

    I notice a lot of the least "Slavic" influenced mainland Greeks, mostly people in the Peloponnese, look oddly "western" Mediterranean and similar to some Iberian phenotypes. They do not have as much Middle Eastern input as Sicilians or Aegean islanders, so even without as much Slavic, the look is strongly western. I suspect this is a greater retention of EEF/Neolithic Farmer ancestry (peaking in modern Sardinia) and that without so much MENA, it just leaves a general Mediterranean look.

    I notice also some Cyclades islanders and even a few Cretans look Iberian as well. Cyclades and south Peloponnesians are genetically close so this makes sense.

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  5. #1963
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    No offense but I don't think using children to demonstrate phenotypes is a good idea at all, as phenotypes dramatically change after puberty.
    Erm, from all the pictures I've posted, only 4 are children - and I've posted few dozens. The rest are teenagers and grown ups.

    I posted my own image as a child, but I pretty much have the same complexion as I did when I was at that age - except for freckles and my hair got darker (that is, from blonde-red hair, to red hair).

    Also your conflating misguided tropes, which don't have any genetic basis at all.
    Did you read my post? I actually claim that one cannot racially profile Mediterranean populations because their phenotype varied to a great degree, even in a single family.

    To the contrary, based of the Bronze Age Sidon sample, modern Lebanese are generally lighter based of those from the Bronze Age even with accrued SSA ancestry
    Do you have any study to support that? Because according to Michalis, one of the Jordan EBA samples is predicted to have had red hair.

    I agree with Sikeliot on his points and genetically Ashkenazi Jews are very similar to Southern Italians, the ethnogenesis is different but end results are similar.
    We claim the same thing, I just disagree with him on one point - the natural selection aspect.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 08-09-2018 at 06:14 AM.

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  7. #1964
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Also, one other point I will note about phenotype and I am wondering who agrees, then I will cease to post about it because I know it is not the intention of this thread.

    I notice a lot of the least "Slavic" influenced mainland Greeks, mostly people in the Peloponnese, look oddly "western" Mediterranean and similar to some Iberian phenotypes. They do not have as much Middle Eastern input as Sicilians or Aegean islanders, so even without as much Slavic, the look is strongly western. I suspect this is a greater retention of EEF/Neolithic Farmer ancestry (peaking in modern Sardinia) and that without so much MENA, it just leaves a general Mediterranean look.

    I notice also some Cyclades islanders and even a few Cretans look Iberian as well. Cyclades and south Peloponnesians are genetically close so this makes sense.
    I live, and has been living for decades, in a country that at least 70% of it's population is Middle Eastern and Levantine - 50% of Jews in Israel are of Near Eastern and Middle Eastern origin, and 20% Arabs, Druze, Samaritans etc.

    This means I've dated several women of Middle Eastern ancestry. I've got drunk with, served in the military with, and constantly hang out with people with such varied Middle Eastern ancestries. I've visited Greece and Italy several times, as well as Spain. I must tell you, there is no way to tell apart the origin of different Mediterranean people based on their look. Many Arabs and Near Eastern-looking Jews would easily pass as Spaniards or South Italians or Greeks or Cypriots. Even many Ashkenazi Jews here in Israel look like MENA.
    I honestly can't believe anyone would buy into any capability to tell the difference between a "Western Mediterranean" and a "Eastern Mediterranean", based on specific look.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 08-09-2018 at 10:48 AM.

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  9. #1965
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Iceland and the rest of the North Atlantic are where it's at for me climate-wise - cool, doesn't feel like a swamp in the summer, and nice and overcast.

    Doesn't the sun burn you badly, though? :o
    It does burn me, which is why I use sun screen, and why I have so many freckles.

    The sun just hurts when I'm exposed to it.
    Maybe we should test your genes for some Transylvanian admixture

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  11. #1966
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    Btw, on a personal note...

    23andme finally updated my paternal haplogroup:

    "We updated the paternal haplogroup algorithm to consider an expanded set of variants on the Y chromosome. As a result, certain customers on version 5 of the genotyping chip received updated assignments - most often more precise ones."

    So instead of the generic Q-M242, I now know the following:



    And in addition, they've added some more data on Q-M378:



    But I checked on https://www.yfull.com my own tree, and this is what I got for Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC19XX -> Q-Y2209:



    It seems to have formed 3500 years ago, in Jordan.

    Then, when I got to the next subclade, Q-Y2225, it seems to have formed roughly ~3000 years before present:



    Unfortunately, yfull.com had no deeper subclades along my tree.

    But it seems to confirm that my paternal haplogroup originates from the Late Bronze Age (even Iron Age) Levant.

    Also, according to FTDNA Jewish Q haplogroup:

    In the Ashkenazi (Eastern European) Jewish population we are finding that those from Haplogroup Q are Q-Y2200. There appears to be one more mutation downstream (Q-Y2232) that really is only found among Jewish men.

    In addition, there are several branches of Q found in Sephardi, Yemeni, and Greek Jewish populations.
    And, according to wikipedia:

    The Q-M378 subclade and specifically its Q-L245 subbranch is speculated to be the branch to which Q-M242 men in Jewish Diaspora populations belong.[1][5] Although published articles have not tested for M378 in Jewish populations, genetic genealogists from the Ashkenazi, Mizrachi, and Sephardi Jewish populations have tested positive for both M378 and L245.
    EDIT: It seems wikipedia is not up-to-date... Gurianov et al. (2014) found M378 in Ashkenazi Jews (and Marsh Arabs):



    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ome_Sequencing

    AJ1 and AJ2 in the bottom are Ashkenazi Jews.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 08-09-2018 at 11:28 AM.

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  13. #1967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I think that the 10-15% North West/East European admixture causes the pale skin, blonde/red hair and pale eyes phenotype that already exist in Levantine but as a minority trait, to be, statistically speaking, more common among Ashkenazim.
    All in all, as I've shown here (and others, like Claudio also shown), there are a lot of Ashkenazi Jews who look totally Levantine. I have no statistics about which look is more common.

    So, for me, there is no point in discussing phenotypes when it comes to Mediterranean people - Ashkenazi Jews just have a little more recent North West/East European admixture than Sicilians, South Italians or Greeks - which is why it's the variation is more extreme among us, IMO.
    A third consideration, that of pigmentation, is found to agree in principle with stature and with head form; the Jews are mainly brunet, with about 55 per cent of dark hair and eye color combinations, and less than 10 per cent which can be construed as blond. In countries where the Gentiles are predominantly blond, or more blond than brunet, the Jews are relatively dark; in countries such as Rumania where the Gentiles are prevailingly brunet, the Jews are blonder than the Gentiles. The Jews have, therefore, struck a pigment balance which is as constant as their balance in head form.

    In the dimensions of the head and face, the Jews have likewise developed certain consistencies which operate regardless of geography. The head length is always, except in socially selected groups, less than 190 mm., and often less than 185 mm. The bizygomatic is less than 140 mm., with the same exceptions, and usually stands at the level of 135 mm. or 136 mm., and the nose breadth mean ranges usually between 34 and 36 mm. The vertical diameters of the face and nose are, in existing material, seldom reliable, but there is reason to believe that the upper face height is relatively long in reference to the total face height, which is a Mediterranean racial character. Convexity of the nose, a popular diagnostic of Jews, is usually found in far fewer than 50 per cent; straight noses are in all regional Jewish groups the commonest of profile forms, while, in southern Russia, concave profiles are more frequent than convex.

    The physical composition of the central European Jewish body has not been difficult to determine. The Ashkenazim are a reasonably uniform people in a statistical sense; furthermore, many of their metrical characters, as far as we know them, are not markedly different from those of their Mediterranean Jewish ancestors. The facial diameters, for example, relate them closely to the Mediterranean prototype, in strong contrast to the broader faces of the Alpines and Neo-Danubians among whom most of them live. The head form, on the other hand, shows a partial brachycephalization which must be due to the absorption of Gentile blood. At the same time the presence of a strong minority with mixed or light pigmentation makes such an absorption necessary. The Jews are not simply Judaized central Europeans; they are central-Europeanized Jews. Carleton C.Coon The Races of Europe, extract dedicated to Ashkenazi Jews
    I underline that Coon was not a 'racist' anthropologist and that it was Professor at Harvard University.

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  15. #1968
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitry View Post
    Most full Ashkenazi Jews have dark hair and brown eyes.

    If natural selection was truly the culprit, then Ashkenazim would be a majority or signficiantly blonde haired and blue eyed population, but they are not. Also, who is to say that the countries Ashkenazi were housed in (besides Germany) had blonde standards of beauty? Many Russian women have been dying their blonde hair dark or several decades. In Eastern Slavic countries, it is actually dark hair, light skin and eyes that are the favored combination, not necessairly blonde hair.

    I think that the reason you may see higher rates of blondism in Ashkenazis than in Sicilians is because Ashkenazi are a population born out of the bottleneck effect. If you look at populations in the Levant that have been realtively genetically isolated since the bronze age (i.e . Druze people), you'll find a higher rate of blondism among them than you will find among other Near Easterners. It is possible that the people many people involved in the founding bottleneck of the Ashkneazi population (at least 100-200/400 people) were light Levantines or light Greeks/Italians, and that the gene was able to spread rapidly to modern day Ashkenazis because of how small their ancestral founding population was. That is also the same way the common diseases spread in the Ashkneazi population.
    How are Druze people isolate since Bronze Age? I suggest you refresh your historical knowledge. There were also a lot of Saqaliba brought to this region.
    Last edited by eolien; 08-09-2018 at 10:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Not to perpetuate the phenotype discussion too much, but of the many full Ashkenazi Jews I know, I would say that around 1/3 look predominantly Levantine, 1/3 look predominantly Northwest or Northeast European (more West than East), and around 1/3 fall somewhere in between, often looking generically "Italian." I think that due to our ancestors living in very cold climates for centuries and other societal factors (sexual selection, survival in pogroms), we often have lighter pigmentation, especially skin tone. As a result, people tend to think we look more "European" even though we have distinctly Mediterranean or West Asian features, which are evident from the many light-featured Levantine peoples previously posted. For instance, we generally have much larger round or almond-shaped eyes, thicker/plumper lips, and of course the infamous "Semitic nose" (which isn't necessarily larger, but just shaped differently).

    As Erik has mentioned many times before, Ashkenazi Jews are extremely diverse in appearance and it's not at all uncommon for parents or siblings to look like completely different ethnicities, with one looking mostly Northern European and another looking mostly Middle Eastern. And of course there are some Ashkenazim who look vaguely East Asian or even like light-skinned African Americans.
    What I observe among the Ashkenazim are 2-fold. On the one hand high number of blue/pale eyes (like Jerry Seinfeld), hardly present among the Sefardim and second a more expressive face which looks like for example of Paul Auster or Serge Gainsbourg which represent for me a more armenian-like face. On the other hand most Sefardim from the Balkans cannot easily be distinguished from some Italian, Spanish or Greeks (especially the women). well whatever...
    Last edited by eolien; 08-09-2018 at 02:37 PM.

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    Jerry Seinfeld is AJ father and SyJ (Halabi) mother

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