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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I see Global25 has Libyan Jews. They are supposed to be extremely isolated, and an ancient community from around the 3rd century BC, during Hellenistic times. They have accepted few Sephardic Jews in 1492, but not as many as other North African or South European. So, testing them for Aegean, Italian, Levantine etc. should be a good indicator. Take into consideration that there are number of things that we know about Libyan Jewry:

    1. They've been very isolated and a very ancient community - I expect similar drift to what we see in Ashkenazi Jews and Samaritans.
    2. They've tradition of accepting local Berber converts in substantial amount (but not as many as Yemeni Jews).
    3. They've accepted some Sephardic Jews, but not as many as other Mediterranean communities.

    I expect probably higher Levantine, substantial Mozabite, and some Southern French admixture. Remember Sephardic Jews almost have 20% S. French admixture when modeled with the least French-related population - Cypriots. I'll test them and post the results soon.
    erik,
    can you run algerian jews and morocan jews do they score south french like balkan sefhardi jews ?
    kind regards
    adam

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    Quote Originally Posted by Targum View Post
    No; it is not well known but in Istanbul proper the Ashkenazi qehillah pre-dated the Sefaradim by 30-some years. Below is an excerpt from the Wikipedia article on Istanbul Jewish history:

    "The number of native Jews was soon bolstered by small groups of Ashkenazi Jews that immigrated to the Ottoman Empire between 1421 and 1453.[13] Among these new Ashkenazi immigrants was Rabbi Yitzhak Sarfati, a German-born Jew of French descent[15] (Hebrew: צרפתי Sarfati, meaning: "French"), who became the Chief Rabbi of Edirne and wrote a letter inviting the European Jewry to settle in the Ottoman Empire, in which he stated that: "Turkey is a land wherein nothing is lacking" and asking: "Is it not better for you to live under Muslims than under Christians?"[15][16]..."
    Yes, but you have to be accurate in your statements. First as you know it is not Istanbul but Edirne. Second we know there were at least 2 Ashkenazi communities based on their sinagogue name in Edirne, BUT nothing in Istanbul. Third, the surname Ashkenazi is very common among Balkan Sefarads, so no surprise there. But these Ashkenazim did not come from Poland or Lithuania but most most likely from Bavaria and definitely from Buda.

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    I would like to cite from the recent pre-print paper: Genetic analysis of Sephardic ancestry in the Iberian Peninsula: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/05/18/325779

    "We performed principal component analysis (PCA) on all 13 populations with PLINK using a set of
    156,733 SNPs obtained after linkage disequilibrium (LD) pruning (r2 threshold = 0.8; window size
    = 50; step size = 5). The first PC separates North Africans (Berbers and Tunisians) from the rest of
    the populations, whereas the second PC roughly corresponds to the distribution of the remaining
    populations along an east-west axis with the Iraqi Jews and the Basques occupying the two
    extremes (Figure 1b). The PCA plot revealed that the Sephardic Jews are genetically most similar
    to Eastern Mediterranean populations, such as Cretans and South Italians
    , and to a lesser degree to
    the Iraqi Jews, in agreement with previous observations7,8. The observed genetic affinities remained
    the same after first removing the North Africans (Figure S1), and then the Eastern Mediterraneans
    and Jewish populations (Figure S2) from the PCA.
    "

    "As before, the most differentiated clusters were the ones from North Africa (Tunisians and
    Berbers), whereas the next node divided the remaining populations into two clusters: Southwest vs.
    Southeast Europe (including the two Jewish populations). The clustering is consistent with
    geography with the exception that North Italy was clustered with the Southwestern populations
    rather than Southeastern. South Italy and Crete clustered together, and the Sephardic Jews appeared
    more closely related to these two populations than to the Iraqi Jews.
    "

    Sefarad3.PNG


    Sefarad1.PNG


    Sefarad2.PNG

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    erik,
    can you run algerian jews and morocan jews do they score south french like balkan sefhardi jews ?
    kind regards
    adam
    He should really also test this with Italian Jews too to check whether there really are no faults at all with his method or not. I myself would laugh off any claim that 20% of Sephardic Jews DNA stems from admixture with Southern French locals. I would almost bet there is <10% Iberian admixture in Balkan/Anatolian Jews. In fact I would bet Anatolian/Balkan Jews possibly even have more Berber then Iberian DNA. Yes I said it . . . 15% Iberian admixture is the maximum I could believe.

    Look at the below admixture spreadsheet at K4 and K5 and notice Moroccan and Sephardic Jews have approximately 12% of this ancient 'Amerindian' admixture Iberians score.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?pli=1#gid=4

    Amerindian scores relevant populations get at K5 below

    Samaritan: 0
    Cypriots: 0
    Morocco Jews: 0.6
    Sephardic Jews: 0.5
    Iberians: 4.2

    French: 5.6
    Sicilian: 1.5
    Ashkenazi: 1.6
    Greek: 1.8
    Central Italian: 2.3
    Last edited by Seabass; 06-12-2018 at 08:56 AM.

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    I've tested to see how Cypriots can be modelled, being that in Global25 there are many Western Anatolian Turks and Central Anatolian Greeks. To see if Cypriots are closer to Aegeans or closer to Anatolian Greeks. I've specifically selected Aydin and Adana Turks, because they seem to correlate with locations that have been Greek from the 10th century BC until around 500 years ago, and used to have high concentration of Anatolian Greeks.

    Adana on the map:
    Adana.JPG

    Aydin on the map:
    Aydin.JPG

    Remember the Hellenistic map:
    Hellenistic_Greek.png

    And, also, where most Hellenistic Jews lived:
    main-qimg-b187a08f259f6f750ed949b6a345d96f-c.jpg

    So, this is how Cypriots are modeled using Greeks (including Cretans) and Anatolian Greeks:


    [1] "distance%=0.497 / distance=0.00497"

    Cypriot

    Samaritan:GSM537032 37.50
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001 15.95
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23112 12.00
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP9 9.25
    Greek:NA17375 5.95
    Greek_Crete:B_Crete-2 5.85
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23117 5.65
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP14 5.00
    Greek_Crete:NA17376 2.85

    See how Crete, despite the fact that it gets the closest single distance from Cypriots, get less than 10%. Levantine is high - 37% - as I got in the K7-BR calculator.

    Anatolian seems to compose a majority among Cypriot's Greek origins - they seem to be 55% of the Greek admixture.

    Then I went on to see how much Levantine admixture is there in both Adana and Aydin. Adana is close by to Syria, so I suspect it might have considerable Levantine amdmixture:

    [1] "distance%=0.7109 / distance=0.007109"

    Turkish_Adana

    Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18636 44.10
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001 17.30
    Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18112 12.00
    Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18596 7.50
    Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18873 7.35
    Samaritan:S_Samaritan-1 6.70
    Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18483 2.70
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP12 2.35

    Interestingly, there is almost no Cretan admixture. And Levantine admixture is less than ~7%.

    In single population distance also, Aydin is closest:

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
    Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18636 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18873
    0.01225704 0.01608614
    Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18596 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18784
    0.01782661 0.01844606
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18483
    0.01923494 0.01965193
    Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18112 Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25003
    0.01977179 0.02058325


    Now let's check Aydin itself:

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23117 Turkish_Adana:Adana23112
    0.01557028 0.01666082
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23150 Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25003
    0.01910604 0.02024963
    Greek_Crete:B_Crete-2 Greek_Crete:NA17376
    0.02132813 0.02150240
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23114 Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001
    0.02166954 0.02202399


    [1] "distance%=0.6828 / distance=0.006828"

    Turkish_Aydin

    Turkish_Adana:Adana23112 36.10
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23150 19.30
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23113 12.20
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP16 10.70
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23117 10.20
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP17 8.15
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23114 3.35

    Again, seems like Cretans do not get into the admixture, and also, there seem to be no Levantine admixture (other than the minor one which entered via Adana admixture).

    So the way I see it, the reason why Cypriots get such a close single distance to Cretans, besides the fact that obviously Western and South-Western Anatolians and Anatolian Greeks are highly admixed with Aegean Greeks since the Bronze Age, is that Cretans have higher Levantine proportions compare to Anatolians.

    Now let's try to model South Italians with Anatolian Greeks, instead of with Cretans and Cypriots:

    [1] "distance%=0.4003 / distance=0.004003"

    Italian_South

    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP5 20.75
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001 16.55
    French_South:SouthFrench3326 13.75
    Greek_Crete:B_Crete-2 9.70
    French_South:SouthFrench1112 9.25
    Samaritan:149532 8.15
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23133 6.10
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23112 5.75

    Mozabite:HGDP01275 4.00
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25002 3.00
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP12 3.00

    Wow - seems like a lot of the Greek ancestry among S. Italians is actually Anatolian in origin - in a total of ~65% Greek admixture, about half is actually of Anatolian origins. Levantine and N. African seem to be ~12%.

    I've used S. French instead of any of the Italian populations as to not get a bias.

    Next, I'd like to check East Sicilians:

    [1] "distance%=0.5586 / distance=0.005586"

    Sicilian_East

    Samaritan:149533 21.80
    French_South:SouthFrench3326 19.25
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25003 16.90
    French_South:SouthFrench3951 13.20
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP16 12.80
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001 7.65
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP10 3.85
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP14 3.25
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23133 1.30

    In this case it seems like there's a slight majority to Anatolian Greeks ! out of total 45% Greek admixture, about 55% is Anatolian. Levantine in this case is almost double than that of S. Italy - not surprising. Btw, see how French is about 10% higher - probably the result of higher Norman admixture in Sicilians.

    I'll check W. Sicilians as well:

    [1] "distance%=0.3367 / distance=0.003367"

    Sicilian_West

    Samaritan:149533 19.40
    French_South:SouthFrench1323 17.95
    Greek_Crete:B_Crete-1 13.10
    Greek:NA17373 11.20
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25003 9.10
    French_South:SouthFrench3326 8.05
    French_South:SouthFrench3951 6.95
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23133 5.10
    Mozabite:HGDP01274 5.05
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP16 4.10

    Several observations: Greek admixture is similar to East Sicilians, about ~42% (vs. 45%), but Levantine and N. African is higher - 25% vs. ~20%. This is expected, being that Phoenicians and Catheginians settled in the Western part of the island. But, this time as opposed to E. Sicily and S. Italy, the majority of Greeks seem to originate from S. Greeks and Aegean Greeks - only 33% of the Greek admixture is Anatolian.

    This might also again, explain why Western Sicilians are further away from Cypriots and Sephardic Jews.


    So now, let's try to model Sephardic Jews, but instead of Cypriots, using Anatolian Greeks, West and S. Western Anatolians, Cretans and S. Greeks and Greek Islanders:

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
    Greek_Crete:NA17376 Greek_Crete:B_Crete-2
    0.01764885 0.02144570
    Samaritan:GSM537033 Greek:GREEKGRALPOP13
    0.02326800 0.02425827
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP14 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18873
    0.02469571 0.02481697
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25003 Greek:GREEKGRALPOP4
    0.02552015 0.02577161

    After Cypriots, Cretans are closest - as expected because they also have a high Levantine admixture.

    [1] "distance%=0.515 / distance=0.00515"

    Sephardic_Jew

    Samaritan:GSM537032 22.05
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23133 16.85
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001 15.40
    French_South:SouthFrench3951 13.10
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP16 11.60
    Mozabite:HGDP01266 7.00
    Mozabite:HGDP01275 6.80
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP14 4.45
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP15 2.75

    Levantine: ~22% (there might be a little more - considering how much Levantine admixture exists among the various S. Greek and Greek Islanders I've got there)
    Anatolian: ~32%
    Greek Islander/S. Greek: ~19%
    N. African: ~14%
    S. French: ~13%

    Compare that to using Cypriots instead of Greeks and Samaritan:

    [1] "distance%=0.5482 / distance=0.005482"

    Sephardic_Jew

    Cypriot:CYP2 28.15
    Cypriot:Cyprus24AJ19 18.90
    Cypriot:CYP5 16.35
    French_South:SouthFrench3326 9.75
    Mozabite:HGDP01266 9.25
    Cypriot:Cyprus21AJ19 8.00
    French_South:SouthFrench1112 7.20
    Cypriot:CYP19 2.40

    Cypriot: ~73%, out of that, using the previous result of ~37% Levantine in Cypriots, ~27%.
    S. French: ~16%
    N. African: ~9%

    It might be that there is some Berber admixture among S. French? if it exists, it's really minor. Also, there might be some N. African admixture among Cypriots.

    So it seems a very good reason for why Sephardic Jews cluster with Cypriots and with S. Italians and East Sicilians, as oppose to West Sicilians, is that their mainly of Anatolian Greek origins.

    This helps confirming the Hellenistic origins of Western Jews. And confirms, once again, that Western Jews are:
    ~25-30% Levantine
    ~45-50% Greek (mostly Anatolian Greek)
    ~20-25% N. European (or in the case of Sephardim, also N. African) admixture.

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    Compare that to Libyan Jews:

    [1] "distance%=0.378 / distance=0.00378"

    Libyan_Jew

    Samaritan:GSM537032 21.00
    Samaritan:GSM537033 14.20
    Samaritan:168723 11.90

    French_South:SouthFrench1112 9.75
    Mozabite:HGDP01280 7.90
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25002 7.20
    Mozabite:S_Mozabite-1 5.65
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23133 5.50
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP15 5.40

    Mozabite:HGDP01255 4.55
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001 3.50
    French_South:SouthFrench3326 2.15
    Mozabite:HGDP01253 1.30

    Levantine: ~47%
    Anatolian: ~16%
    Greek: ~5%
    Berber: ~19%
    S. French: ~12%

    Which would explain why modeling Libyan Jews just with Cypriots gave worse results - they are highly Levantine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Less Levantine, yes. But there are definitely parts of mainland southern Italy which are just as ancient Greek, and certainly more modern Greek influenced, than Sicilians -- Apulia and Lucania.

    The other note I will make is that if you model both East and West Sicilians it does show that East Sicily is likely slightly more "native" Italic and Greek, while West Sicily will have slightly higher Levant, Berber, and Germanic, because other than the Greek colonization, the majority of migrations onto the island came through the western side.
    I already told you on TA and I repeat it here too: in Lucania there has never been a massive modern Greek immigration. I find amusing how people can tell what is native and what is not when we do not have ancient DNA from Italy, nor from the south nor from the north. However the Trapanese who lived 4200 years ago is similar to present day Trapanese and the differences are not how you want to make them appear.

    Modern trapanese vs Sicily Beaker:
    9.76 North_Sea 9.74
    18.32 Atlantic 16.97
    4.70 Baltic 0
    3.27 Eastern_Euro 1.96
    17.76 West_Med 33.93
    10.64 West_Asian 10.98
    26.75 East_Med 24
    5.37 Red_Sea 2.42

    Quote Originally Posted by giorgio View Post
    Apulia and Lucania has significant Aberesche and historical Balkan input.
    Arbereshe towns in Lucania are only 5 and genetically they left nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    He should really also test this with Italian Jews too to check whether there really are no faults at all with his method or not. I myself would laugh off any claim that 20% of Sephardic Jews DNA stems from admixture with Southern French locals. I would almost bet there is <10% Iberian admixture in Balkan/Anatolian Jews. In fact I would bet Anatolian/Balkan Jews possibly even have more Berber then Iberian DNA. Yes I said it . . . 15% Iberian admixture is the maximum I could believe.

    Look at the below admixture spreadsheet at K4 and K5 and notice Moroccan and Sephardic Jews have approximately 12% of this ancient 'Amerindian' admixture Iberians score.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?pli=1#gid=4

    Amerindian scores relevant populations get at K5 below

    Samaritan: 0
    Cypriots: 0
    Morocco Jews: 0.6
    Sephardic Jews: 0.5
    Iberians: 4.2

    French: 5.6
    Sicilian: 1.5
    Ashkenazi: 1.6
    Greek: 1.8
    Central Italian: 2.3
    It's possible that S. French have some berber admixture. I'll check it out. But check out what happens if I use Greeks and Anatolians combined with Samaritans, instead of Cypriots:

    [1] "distance%=0.515 / distance=0.00515"

    Sephardic_Jew

    Samaritan:GSM537032 22.05
    Turkish_Adana:Adana23133 16.85
    Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001 15.40
    French_South:SouthFrench3951 13.10
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP16 11.60
    Mozabite:HGDP01266 7.00
    Mozabite:HGDP01275 6.80
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP14 4.45
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP15 2.75

    Levantine: ~22% (there might be a little more - considering how much Levantine admixture exists among the various S. Greek and Greek Islanders I've got there)
    Anatolian: ~32%
    Greek Islander/S. Greek: ~19%
    N. African: ~14%
    S. French: ~13%
    It drops to 13%. Berber is slightly more significant.

    S. French was selected in these models for Sephardic Jews for several reasons:

    1. It known that many early Sephardic communities existed in S. France, adjacent to Catalonia.
    2. It assumes Sephardim entered Spain mainly via France, because they move north from Italy - so mutual ancestry with Ashkenazi Jews.
    3. Iberians have been found to have large Jewish admixture in some areas, so they might be biased.
    4. North Spanish are usually admixed with Basques to a large degree and do not represent a good Iberian test group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    I would like to cite from the recent pre-print paper: Genetic analysis of Sephardic ancestry in the Iberian Peninsula: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/05/18/325779

    "We performed principal component analysis (PCA) on all 13 populations with PLINK using a set of
    156,733 SNPs obtained after linkage disequilibrium (LD) pruning (r2 threshold = 0.8; window size
    = 50; step size = 5). The first PC separates North Africans (Berbers and Tunisians) from the rest of
    the populations, whereas the second PC roughly corresponds to the distribution of the remaining
    populations along an east-west axis with the Iraqi Jews and the Basques occupying the two
    extremes (Figure 1b). The PCA plot revealed that the Sephardic Jews are genetically most similar
    to Eastern Mediterranean populations, such as Cretans and South Italians
    , and to a lesser degree to
    the Iraqi Jews, in agreement with previous observations7,8. The observed genetic affinities remained
    the same after first removing the North Africans (Figure S1), and then the Eastern Mediterraneans
    and Jewish populations (Figure S2) from the PCA.
    "

    "As before, the most differentiated clusters were the ones from North Africa (Tunisians and
    Berbers), whereas the next node divided the remaining populations into two clusters: Southwest vs.
    Southeast Europe (including the two Jewish populations). The clustering is consistent with
    geography with the exception that North Italy was clustered with the Southwestern populations
    rather than Southeastern. South Italy and Crete clustered together, and the Sephardic Jews appeared
    more closely related to these two populations than to the Iraqi Jews.
    "

    Sefarad3.PNG


    Sefarad1.PNG


    Sefarad2.PNG
    In the second graph, they seem to cluster a little bit closer to Cretans than to S. Italians - this is indeed what I've found as well. I think it's safe to say now that the admixture isn't Italian, at least IMO, but S. Italians and Italians in general seem to be highly admixed with Greeks, Anatolian Greeks, Levantines and N. Europeans that they cluster pretty close to Western Jews.

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    Can you model some other Levantine populations (Palestinians, Lebanese, Druze, Syrians, etc) similarly to how you modeled the Jews and Southern Europeans?

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