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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #31
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    @Agamemnon,

    My main claim is very simple, and I'll repeat it.

    As a result of ancient (BC) Greek admixture with Judeans, in Judea itself and elsewhere, in the Hellenistic diaspora, and perhaps even before that - as a result of Philistines being absorbed into Judean people (the ones which remained after the Babylonian diaspora), Western Jews were formed. This means, that European admixture among Western Jews, which is mostly Mediterranean, shouldn't be looked at as the result of Jews being expelled from their lands - but something which started in Judea, starting mainly from Hellenistic times.

    The reason why modern Western Jews cluster so close with South Italians, Sicilians and Islander Greeks, is because all of these locations have substantial ancient Greek ancestry. Furthermore, as a result of Sicilians being a mixture of ancient Greeks and Levantines (from Phoenician, Punic and then Arabic rule), and a small amount of recent Northern European admixture, they score closest to Western Jews.

    I do not reject the notion that some Roman women also joined the admixture - I just say that if they did, it was mainly Greco-Romans who did.

    After Muslim occupation of Sicily for 250 years in Early Medieval Ages, many Greco-Sicilians fled to mainland Italy, where they mixed with the rest of the Latin-speaking population. Also, Southern Mainland Italy, which was also Greek-speaking and had Greek majority, was fully Latinized by the 10th century. Muslim raids on mainland southern Italy would drive some of them north as well. This means, that while the most Greek population in Italy is still Sicily and the South, Greek and Levantine admixture exist in one way or another throughout all of the Italian peninsula, less in the North, more in the South. This would further make it look like as if Italians resemble Western Jews.

    Also, the last, Northern European admixture, at least for Ashkenazi Jews, was probably the Rhine valley, which has both Celtic and Germanic populations. And north Italy (northern than Tuscany) is also Celtic to some degree, and has higher German influence than the rest of Italy. Which would again, make Italians seem close to Western Jews.

    Modern Greek Islanders are closer to Sicilians than to modern Mainland Greeks. Modern mainland Greeks are admixed with Early Medieval Slavs, which entered the Balkans. Modern Greek Islanders have kept isolated from that to a degree, and also got more recent Levantine admixture (which make them appear close to Sicilians and Western Jews, again).

    This is my theory, that's it. Nothing conspirative or "Jews do not belong to the Middle East" kind of stuff.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    @Agamemnon,

    My main claim is very simple, and I'll repeat it.

    As a result of ancient (BC) Greek admixture with Judeans, in Judea itself and elsewhere, in the Hellenistic diaspora, and perhaps even before that - as a result of Philistines being absorbed into Judean people (the ones which remained after the Babylonian diaspora), Western Jews were formed. This means, that European admixture among Western Jews, which is mostly Mediterranean, shouldn't be looked at as the result of Jews being expelled from their lands - but something which started in Judea, starting mainly from Hellenistic times.

    The reason why modern Western Jews cluster so close with South Italians, Sicilians and Islander Greeks, is because all of these locations have substantial ancient Greek ancestry. Furthermore, as a result of Sicilians being a mixture of ancient Greeks and Levantines (from Phoenician, Punic and then Arabic rule), and a small amount of recent Northern European admixture, they score closest to Western Jews.

    I do not reject the notion that some Roman women also joined the admixture - I just say that if they did, it was mainly Greco-Romans who did.

    After Muslim occupation of Sicily for 250 years in Early Medieval Ages, many Greco-Sicilians fled to mainland Italy, where they mixed with the rest of the Latin-speaking population. Also, Southern Mainland Italy, which was also Greek-speaking and had Greek majority, was fully Latinized by the 10th century. Muslim raids on mainland southern Italy would drive some of them north as well. This means, that while the most Greek population in Italy is still Sicily and the South, Greek and Levantine admixture exist in one way or another throughout all of the Italian peninsula, less in the North, more in the South. This would further make it look like as if Italians resemble Western Jews.

    Also, the last, Northern European admixture, at least for Ashkenazi Jews, was probably the Rhine valley, which has both Celtic and Germanic populations. And north Italy (northern than Tuscany) is also Celtic to some degree, and has higher German influence than the rest of Italy. Which would again, make Italians seem close to Western Jews.

    Modern Greek Islanders are closer to Sicilians than to modern Mainland Greeks. Modern mainland Greeks are admixed with Early Medieval Slavs, which entered the Balkans. Modern Greek Islanders have kept isolated from that to a degree, and also got more recent Levantine admixture (which make them appear close to Sicilians and Western Jews, again).

    This is my theory, that's it. Nothing conspirative or "Jews do not belong to the Middle East" kind of stuff.
    you forget about eastern europe admixture {poland my dear}
    achenazi jews score 5% baltic related clusters in living dna
    i know it is low but still there and shouldn't be ignore .....

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    you forget about eastern europe admixture {poland my dear}
    achenazi jews score 5% baltic related clusters in living dna
    i know it is low but still there and shouldn't be ignore .....
    Let's not forget about tract-length evidence and IBD sharing with Western Slavs.

    Truth be told, though, I think that someone versed in f3 stats, z-scores, qpAdmix, etc. should tackle the question. I'm definitely doubting that models with ancient aegeans would pass muster that well, especially since they'd have to be rather convoluted. I don't exactly know for sure, of course, since I lack experience with running that stuff (having read some stuff about it on Davidski's blog and some papers).
    Last edited by Eihwaz; 06-06-2018 at 07:08 PM.
    1 Jew_Ashkenazy_Poland +Volga-German Custom:AGUser_Eihwaz 1.7783 85.83 14.17

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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Let's not forget about tract-length evidence and IBD sharing with Western Slavs.

    Truth be told, though, I think that someone versed in f3 stats, z-scores, qpAdmix, etc. should tackle the question.
    yes but probably you more
    because you have non jewish west slavic heritage
    so i am sure you have more ibd sharing than pure aschenazi ......
    but yes the shared segment are usually with ukranians and eastern poles......

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    you forget about eastern europe admixture {poland my dear}
    achenazi jews score 5% baltic related clusters in living dna
    i know it is low but still there and shouldn't be ignore .....
    The thing is, most of the Ashkenazi Jews sampled were Western Ashkenazi, which although still have some Polish admixture (because Jews moved back from Eastern Europe to Germany, Hungary and Austria in the last 300 years or so). Out of the 14 Ashkenazi Jews used for the average, 11 were Western Ashkenazi, and only 3 were Eastern Ashkenazi.

    But I would agree, that Eastern Ashkenazi Jews should have Slavic admixture, and perhaps even Baltic one (through Western Slavs and Lithuanians).

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  10. #36
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    ^^A clear-cut East-West divide between Ashkenazim fails in many aspects to be honest, some "Western Ashkenazim" have some Eastern European admixture while some "Eastern Ashkenazim" have next to none, it isn't as clear cut as some might think it is.

    Either way, I've been a vocal proponent of an admixture event between Levantines and Aegean populations (as opposed to a Levantine + Italian model) to explain the ethnogenesis of Western Jewry for several years, until the Mycenaean results made it clear that this was very unlikely. They're just too close to present-day Eastern Mediterraneans for that to be a reasonable explanation. It's a bit as if someone claimed that the Chuvash are unadulterated Yamnayans or that North Africans are entirely derived from a population like IAM, such a model fails for the exact same reasons Western Jews owing most of their ancestry to a Minoan or Mycenaean source fails, namely because it directly contradicts most of the evidence we have (in terms of IBD, uniparental lineages, even medical genetics for that matter).

    Speaking of all the Jews aren't Jews propaganda, I think claiming that Jews are just a bunch of Greek converts will become the new hype when the whole Khazar thing dies out.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-06-2018 at 08:35 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    ^^A clear-cut East-West divide between Ashkenazim fails in many aspects to be honest, some "Western Ashkenazim" have some Eastern European admixture while some "Eastern Ashkenazim" have next to none, it isn't as clear cut as some might think it is.
    I totally agree. Especially since most "Western" Ashkenazi Jews are descendants from "Ostjuden" from the Pale of Settlement in Eastern Europe which were allowed to immigrate into the Holy Roman Empire and Hapsburg Empires (and France) in the late 18th century onwards.

    Either way, I've been a vocal proponent of an admixture event between Levantines and Aegean populations (as opposed to a Levantine + Italian model) to explain the ethnogenesis of Western Jewry for several years, until the Mycenaean results made it clear that this was very unlikely. They're just too close to present-day Eastern Mediterraneans for that to be a reasonable explanation. It's a bit as if someone claimed that the Chuvash are unadulterated Yamnayans or that North Africans are entirely derived from a population like IAM, such a model fails for the exact same reasons Western Jews owing most of their ancestry to a Minoan or Mycenaean source fails, namely because it directly contradicts most of the evidence we have (in terms of IBD, uniparental lineages, even medical genetics for that matter).
    In what way are Mycenaean too close to present-day East Meds? modern Greeks are certainly not 100% Mycenaeans. Even the Islanders, while a bit closer to ancient Greeks thanks to isolation, have had some admixture, including late (post-Neolithic) Levantine one.

    And also, if we go by that logic, being that Mycenaeans have had little Levantine admixture in them originally, and they are "just too close to present-day Eastern Mediterraneans" as you put it, how else would you explain Western Jews cluster so closely to Greek Islanders and to Sicilians? (And Sicilians and Greek Islanders cluster much closer to each other than mainland Greeks and Greek Islanders)

    I have difficulties when some one tries to use modern Mediterranean admixture to try to predict which one was the main contributor to the formation of Western Jews. Europe - East, West and South - has changed considerably in the last 2000 years, and even if we do assume Western Jews left Judea as almost pure Levantines, and met Mediterraneans Europeans in Italy or somewhere else in Southern Europe - that would happen some 2000 years ago. Europe's mass movements of populations ended around 1000-750 years ago - about 1000-1300 years after those Southern Europeans mixed with those Judeans. Assuming modern populations would model those Europeans is unrealistic and could lead to some unexplained situations.


    Speaking of all the Jews aren't Jews propaganda, I think claiming that Jews are just a bunch of Greek converts will become the new hype when the whole Khazar thing dies out.
    Oh but I didn't claim this at all - I've simply claimed ancient Greek admixture is natural, historical part of the ancient Levant, and as shown from the other non-Jewish Levantine populations I've examined - it exist among them as well. If Jews would have never left the Levant - they would still be admixture of Levantines and ancient Aegean people. Greek colonization of the Levant and the rest of the Mediterranean is as old as Israelite nationhood itself - spanning from the 10th century BC all the way to the 7th century AD - some 1800 years.
    And also, Western Jews are still, according to this model, 35-30% Bronze-Age Levantines. That's not nothing.

  13. #38
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    As for the closeness of modern Mediterraneans to Mycenaean people, check out Eurogenes blog:
    Mycenaean
    Minoan_Lasithi 0.780±0.044
    Srubnaya 0.220±0.044

    Distance: 0.909333794


    vs

    Greek
    Iran_ChL 0.090±0.071
    Mycenaean 0.478±0.103
    Slav_Bohemia 0.432±0.077

    Distance: 0.461783732


    Sicilian_East
    Bell_Beaker_Germany 0.222±0.077
    England_Roman_outlier 0.210±0.134
    Mycenaean 0.567±0.163

    Distance: 0.504442682


    Sicilian_West
    England_Roman_outlier 0.216±0.121
    Mycenaean 0.503±0.135
    Unetice 0.281±0.056

    Distance: 0.808464904
    *England Roman outlier was a Levantine Gladiator found in Britain, dated to Roman times.

    So, it seems even modern Greeks (albeit these are from mainland Greece), and less Mycenaean than Sicilians.

  14. #39
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    Tried to run nMonte with K36oracle. Shortest distance I've ever seen is ~3%.

    Check out when I try to model Ashekanzi Jews with modern populations:

    [1] "distance%=3.7351 / distance=0.037351"

    Ashkenazi_Eastern_Euro

    Gr_Andros 35.65
    GR_Cyclades 27.95
    Samaritan 23.25
    German_SouthWest 6.95
    PL_SE_Carpathia 6.20

    Not surprisingly, Samaritan, which is a good model for BA Levantine, gets "only" 23%, while Aegean Greek Islanders get much more dominance. This is to be expected, as Levantine, post-Bronze Age admixture (as I said, probably starting from Hellenistic times when Greeks heavily colonized the Levant) in Greek Islanders overlaps with Samaritans.

    Also, North/Eastern European get's too low presence - this is probably due to small amount of Slavic admixture which penetrated from mainland Greece to the islands, so there's some Slavic overlap there as well.

    But overall, the model fits my proposed theory, even with modern populations, in another calculator (although the downsides of modelling ancient admixture events using modern populations is problematic, and it's a good example why).

    As for exactly when Greek Islanders got their Levantine admixture, here are some graphs from the 2017 study about Mycenaean, Minoans and modern Greeks and Sicilians:

    YK4CGM1.png
    This is the admixture chart. As you can see, Sicilians and Calabrese are clearly closest to the Cretans and even Dodecanese, and have not only much more of the red "Near East" component than do mainland Greeks.

    From the same article, I've cropped the relevant dating of admixture for Southern Balkan area (Greece), which, as the table above show, most of the Levantine admixture was concentrated in Greek Islanders (or, perhaps because there was less Slavic influence there, it is more substantial there).
    Capture.JPG
    Circled in red - all Middle Eastern admixture events.

    As can be seen from these tables and from the genetic admixture of Mycenaean and Minoan people, it is quite obvious Levantine admixture entered Greek people much later - but is there today. Again, I believe some of it, or at least most of it, started after Hellenistic period, but also perhaps during Byzantine period when Levantines and Greeks shared similar religion and perhaps many Levantines fled the area to relatively calmed Greece during the centuries long Byzantine-Persian war which depopulated and destroyed a lot of the Middle East, setting the grounds for Arabs to take over by the 7th century (which might explain the existence of Maronite Lebanese Cypriots, which date to Medieval ages).

    So this is one of the reasons why modern Greeks, and especially Greek Islanders, cluster so closely with Sicilians, which have substantial Greek and Levantine ancestry as well. This is also why they cluster closely to Western Jews. Anyhow, it is quite obvious Mycenaeans aren't the exact copy of modern Greeks.

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  16. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Tried to run nMonte with K36oracle. Shortest distance I've ever seen is ~3%.

    Check out when I try to model Ashekanzi Jews with modern populations:

    [1] "distance%=3.7351 / distance=0.037351"

    Ashkenazi_Eastern_Euro

    Gr_Andros 35.65
    GR_Cyclades 27.95
    Samaritan 23.25
    German_SouthWest 6.95
    PL_SE_Carpathia 6.20

    Not surprisingly, Samaritan, which is a good model for BA Levantine, gets "only" 23%, while Aegean Greek Islanders get much more dominance. This is to be expected, as Levantine, post-Bronze Age admixture (as I said, probably starting from Hellenistic times when Greeks heavily colonized the Levant) in Greek Islanders overlaps with Samaritans.

    Also, North/Eastern European get's too low presence - this is probably due to small amount of Slavic admixture which penetrated from mainland Greece to the islands, so there's some Slavic overlap there as well.

    But overall, the model fits my proposed theory, even with modern populations, in another calculator (although the downsides of modelling ancient admixture events using modern populations is problematic, and it's a good example why).

    As for exactly when Greek Islanders got their Levantine admixture, here are some graphs from the 2017 study about Mycenaean, Minoans and modern Greeks and Sicilians:

    YK4CGM1.png
    This is the admixture chart. As you can see, Sicilians and Calabrese are clearly closest to the Cretans and even Dodecanese, and have not only much more of the red "Near East" component than do mainland Greeks.

    From the same article, I've cropped the relevant dating of admixture for Southern Balkan area (Greece), which, as the table above show, most of the Levantine admixture was concentrated in Greek Islanders (or, perhaps because there was less Slavic influence there, it is more substantial there).
    Capture.JPG
    Circled in red - all Middle Eastern admixture events.

    As can be seen from these tables and from the genetic admixture of Mycenaean and Minoan people, it is quite obvious Levantine admixture entered Greek people much later - but is there today. Again, I believe some of it, or at least most of it, started after Hellenistic period, but also perhaps during Byzantine period when Levantines and Greeks shared similar religion and perhaps many Levantines fled the area to relatively calmed Greece during the centuries long Byzantine-Persian war which depopulated and destroyed a lot of the Middle East, setting the grounds for Arabs to take over by the 7th century (which might explain the existence of Maronite Lebanese Cypriots, which date to Medieval ages).

    So this is one of the reasons why modern Greeks, and especially Greek Islanders, cluster so closely with Sicilians, which have substantial Greek and Levantine ancestry as well. This is also why they cluster closely to Western Jews. Anyhow, it is quite obvious Mycenaeans aren't the exact copy of modern Greeks.


    totaly agree modern mainland greeks score 18-25% baltic in eurogenes k13
    and many can be modeled in 4 population oracle with ukranian as one of the 4
    the oracle need the slavs time and time again .....
    the slavs didn't changed the language of the greeks like what happen to the thracians in bulgaria
    but they defiantly had genetic impact ......

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