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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #4001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    By the way - happy Hannukah to all!

    (or "happy Jews didn't become Greek holiday")

    I know one of the guys in this video from college

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angriff View Post
    Yes, sorry.
    I recommend reading his book - The Jews of Khazaria, but from my conversations with him, he seems to postulate that the vast majority of the Khazars converted to Islam and absorbed mainly into the Karachay people in the North Caucasus.

    Also, as opposed to his previous stand from +10 years ago (which I mistakenly believed he still holds onto to it) that Western Jews-like settled in Khazaria and later on mixed with the Khazars, and so this is why we can't see traces of Turkic ancestry in Jews, he no longer believes that to be the case (although he couldn't completely rule this out as well). He thinks, and I tend to agree with him, that the Khazars, albeit their conversion to Judaism is true, seem to have left currently no known genetic mark on modern day Ashkenazi Jews.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 12-02-2018 at 09:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    I know one of the guys in this video from college
    LOL what really made me laugh is the part about baked latkes vs. fried - me and the miss were having an argument over this precisely the other day - she wants to make them baked, I said it's a heresy lol.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 12-02-2018 at 10:11 AM.
    Check out my Hidden Content
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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    !חג אורים שמח לכולם
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    !חג אורים שמח לכולם
    גם למר ולכולכם!
    Gam leMar ulekulkhem!
    Also to you and everyone

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    As far as I understand, there were Jews in Old Great Bulgaria, so maybe some Jewish populations were in 'Khazaria' before the Khazars.

    Bulgars are said to have been Turkic but some of their names seem Iranic-related, like the name Asparukh.
    Even the name Kubrat can be a compound word with a prefix ku- and brat (=brother)

    I think it is quite likely Bulgars of 'Old Great Bulgaria' had even less Central/Εast Asian admixture than modern day Balkars who logically have some Kipchak admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I've ran nMonte using the same populations as Govan, this time employing the low quality Sicily Bell Beaker:

    Govan's runs:

    [1] "distance%=2.2786"

    Beaker_Northern_Italy

    Barcin_N,61.4
    Yamnaya_Samara,28.8
    WHG,9.8

    [1] "distance%=3.3121"

    Beaker_Northern_Italy_no_steppe

    Barcin_N,85
    WHG,15

    [1] "distance%=1.4766"

    Mycenaean

    Barcin_N,74.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,13.2
    Ganj_Dareh_N,12.4
    WHG,0.2


    My addition:

    [1] "distance%=3.8624"

    Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe

    Barcin_N,92.8
    WHG,7.2


    If I try to add Ganj_Dareh_N, the distance is slightly shorter, but still, WHG is significant (as opposed to the case of the Mycenaean):

    [1] "distance%=3.5495"

    Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe

    Barcin_N,85.6
    Ganj_Dareh_N,9.6
    WHG,4.8

    Btw, Govan seemed to have omitted Ganj_Dareh_N (aka CHG-like component) in his runs for Beaker_North_Italy, so I've added it:

    [1] "distance%=2.2626"

    Beaker_Northern_Italy

    Barcin_N,66
    Yamnaya_Samara,16.4
    Ganj_Dareh_N,9
    WHG,8.6

    So CHG-like ancestry is BB North Italy (steppe) is pretty much the same as with Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe.

    Let's also try to run Minoans:

    I've used the following:

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Barcin_N Ganj_Dareh_N WHG
    2.204428 14.382298 23.301657

    And I got:

    [1] "distance%=1.5177"

    Minoan_Lasithi

    Barcin_N,91.8
    Ganj_Dareh_N,8.2


    Like in the case of the Mycenaeans - the WHG component is zeroed out.

    The way I see it - even in the models, what separates those East Mediterranean populations from the West Mediterranean ones is the existence of this WHG-like admixture, which doesn't exist in Minoans OR Mycenaeans - but exist in both BB Sicily and BB North Italy (with Steppe or without Steppe).

    Furthermore, it seems that indeed the CHG-like component already existed in Southern Europe ~2000 BC (the time these samples are dated to).

    So basically, pre-Greek Italians (both North and South):

    EEF + CHG + WHG (and later also Steppe)

    East Mediterraneans:

    EEF + CHG (and later also Steppe).

    Looks like Bell Beaker Sicily is Minoans with a small amount of WHG, whereas the North Italy Bell Beaker has a significant amount of Steppe and pulls away from both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    By the way - happy Hannukah to all!

    (or "happy Jews didn't become Greek holiday")

    Now, now Erik... we've started lighting the candles on the giant Hunukkah menorah in Golders Green...but I'm going to stand there with a huge Greek flag. I suppose I will be forced to take flight at some point...

    And a very happy Hannukah to all those celebrating!
    Last edited by Andrewid; 12-03-2018 at 01:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Targum View Post
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4323646/

    I have posted this link before in other threads, about the theorized timeline of the Ashkenazi acquisition of Chinese wives, who converted and had Jewish children. One interesting observation is while the Chinese MtDNA markers are mostly Ashkenazi, they are found among Turkish and Balkan Sefaradi as well , due to more frequent mixing with Ashkenazim.
    Interestingly enough, 23andme assigns me 0.1% Filipino and Austronesian. It becomes Broadly Southeastern Asian at 90% confidence level. I've also noticed about 50% of my Moroccan matches have 0.1% Filipino/Austronesian or Native American. We know it's not Native American (I assume the algorithm is mistaken here), but I wonder if it's "noise" or if there was a wave of Turkish/Balkan Sephardic migration to Morocco that can support this 0.1% Broadly SEA.

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    I lose track sometimes of what's been posted on this thread or elsewhere, but here is a useful précis by Lazarides on the evolutionary history of European populations, hot off the press. This is actually the pre-publication version, as the main version in Current Opinion in Genetics and Development (December 2018) is not open access:

    https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1805/1805.01579.pdf

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