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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Looks like Bell Beaker Sicily is Minoans with a small amount of WHG, whereas the North Italy Bell Beaker has a significant amount of Steppe and pulls away from both.
    Actually, no - because you have two samples of N. Italy Bell Beaker - one with Steppes, and the other without. The fact that both N. Italy Bell Beaker WITH Steppes and without Steppes AND Sicily Bell Beaker (ignoring for one second the low quality of that sample, as you seem to keep on doing) all have in common WHG, but both Myceaneans (that have Steppe component) and Minoans lack this component, means this is the differentiation factor in this specific case.

    Also, if I look at the single distances of both BB non-Steppes N. Italy and Sicily, I get similar distances between the components:

    BB Sicily:

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Barcin_N CHG WHG
    4.20123 13.96466 21.76740

    BB NO STEPPES N. Italy:

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Barcin_N CHG WHG
    4.273102 16.689772 20.587409


    While if I check Minoans, this is what I get:

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Barcin_N CHG WHG
    2.204428 14.498217 23.301657


    Basically, Minoans are much closer to EEF, while both N. Italian and Sicilian BB seem to be of the same distance from their predominant component (also EEF-like).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Now, now Erik... we've started lighting the candles on the giant Hunukkah menorah in Golders Green...but I'm going to stand there with a huge Greek flag. I suppose I will be forced to take flight at some point...

    And a very happy Hannukah to all those celebrating!
    Jokes aside, judging by the fact that a Jewish-based religion took over the Greco-Roman world, while many Greco-Romans joined Judaism (the entire point of this thread) and as we have seen Judean and Galillean synagogues eventually incorporated Hellenistic pagan symbols - I'd say we can call this a truce .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Jokes aside, judging by the fact that a Jewish-based religion took over the Greco-Roman world, while many Greco-Romans joined Judaism (the entire point of this thread) and as we have seen Judean and Galillean synagogues eventually incorporated Hellenistic pagan symbols - I'd say we can call this a truce .
    A truce is agreed. But I shan't be converting or dehellenizing myself any time soon as I have a very low pain threshold
    Last edited by Andrewid; 12-03-2018 at 10:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    A truce is agreed. But I shan't be converting or dehellenizing myself any time soon as I have a very low pain threshold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Actually, no - because you have two samples of N. Italy Bell Beaker - one with Steppes, and the other without. The fact that both N. Italy Bell Beaker WITH Steppes and without Steppes AND Sicily Bell Beaker (ignoring for one second the low quality of that sample, as you seem to keep on doing) all have in common WHG, but both Myceaneans (that have Steppe component) and Minoans lack this component, means this is the differentiation factor in this specific case.
    Looks like Sicily BB is closest to CHG of the three interestingly enough, but furthest from Barcin_N, while Minoan is furthest from WHG.

    Could the WHG component have arrived with Bell Beaker itself, from Sardinia? Maybe pre-Beaker Sicilians wouldn't have it? Who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Looks like Sicily BB is closest to CHG of the three interestingly enough, but furthest from Barcin_N, while Minoan is furthest from WHG.

    Could the WHG component have arrived with Bell Beaker itself, from Sardinia? Maybe pre-Beaker Sicilians wouldn't have it? Who knows.
    Indeed. To be more specific, I of course expect there to always have been some sort of a cline between North and South Italy.

    However, I believe it was much less dramatic and nowhere as segmented as what we see today.

    I've ran some comparisons of both BB North Italy and Sicily with all modern Italian populations. I've also did the same with the non-outlier Collegno samples we have (that is, 6th century AD North Italians):

    BB North Italy

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Italian_Bergamo Italian_Tuscan Sicilian_West Italian_Abruzzo Sicilian_East
    1.867526 2.340714 2.690010 2.841711 2.958732
    Italian_South
    3.132994

    Non-outlier Collegno Italians

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Italian_Bergamo Italian_Tuscan Italian_Abruzzo Sicilian_West Italian_South
    2.498613 2.842966 3.371355 3.408494 3.516061
    Sicilian_East
    3.583039

    Bell Beaker Sicily

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Italian_Abruzzo Sicilian_East Italian_South Italian_Tuscan Sicilian_West
    4.838509 4.927126 4.935861 4.936937 4.943121
    Italian_Bergamo
    5.054898

    Given the short distance seen between North Italians some 4000 YBP, via early medieval North Italians up to modern day North Italians - I'm pretty confident they didn't experience dramatic influx of other populations.

    The fact that BB Sicilians seem to be far off from practically all modern day Italians in pretty much the same distance (variation between furthest and closest is ~0.2) - I'd say they changed considerably.

    Was it via Greek settlement or Levantine and North African settlement? I'd say both.

    Again, I can't really dismiss anything until we have better quality samples, but I'd be surprised if the dramatic discontinuity we see in Italy today existed prior to the Hellenic and Near Eastern admixture, which began in the LBA, Iron Age and onward.

    Given how North Italians seem pretty similar to their Beaker ancestors, the change must have been in South Italy.

    Also, pretty much all of Southern Europe, by the time frame we're discussing - that is, during the Bronze Ago - had EEF-like (what Sarno et al. call "Neolithic Sardinian-like) and CHG - it's just that East Mediterraneans (represented by both Minoans and Mycenaean samples we have at the moment) seem to lacked the WHG that all West Mediterraneans seemed to have. In that retrospect, I think it's most likely Sicilians used to be part of the West Mediterranean cline (perhaps slight east shifted as a result of CHG), while still not as different from their Northern Beaker brethren.
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    but if the modern sicilians are discontinued from BB sicily and inturn closer to BB north italy as well as (non-outlier)collegno wouldnt that then imply a northern altering?
    Geno2.0NG 51%SEurope 19%WCEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EEurope 4%GB&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%WCEurope 40%SEEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NWEuropean 27%SEuropean 13%MedIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%NWEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek 7.1%Balkan gencove 29%NItaly 19%EMed 15%NBritishIsles 12%SWEurope 10%NCEurope 9%Scandinavia 6%NEEurope GenePlazaK29 54.4%NWEurope 37.6%GreekAlbania 5.6%WAsian 2.4%SWAsia

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    but if the modern sicilians are discontinued from BB sicily and inturn closer to BB north italy as well as (non-outlier)collegno wouldnt that then imply a northern altering?
    Surely yeah there is a North-West shifting component in modern South Italians and Sicilians, and it could mean, IMO at least, the much discussed Northern Italian settlement in Sicily during Norman rule (aka "Lombards of Sicily", see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards_of_Sicily ).

    It could also be post-Magna Gracea movements from North to South Italy during Roman times and later on during the Kingdom of Lombardy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Also, pretty much all of Southern Europe, by the time frame we're discussing - that is, during the Bronze Ago - had EEF-like (what Sarno et al. call "Neolithic Sardinian-like) and CHG - it's just that East Mediterraneans (represented by both Minoans and Mycenaean samples we have at the moment) seem to lacked the WHG that all West Mediterraneans seemed to have. In that retrospect, I think it's most likely Sicilians used to be part of the West Mediterranean cline (perhaps slight east shifted as a result of CHG), while still not as different from their Northern Beaker brethren.
    Here is why I disagree with this, although I now KIND OF understand what you're saying about the WHG, which seems about half as much in Sicilian BB versus North Italian BB: ancient Sicilians would have had too much CHG input to be firmly in a West Mediterranean cline. It clearly arrived in Sicily in a similar fashion as it arrived into the Aegean, but this wouldn't have made it into the West Med region. In fact, one of the key reasons today why Iberians for instance are further removed from Sicilians genetically than many Middle Eastern populations are, is because West Mediterranean populations, except for North Italy really, severely lack CHG. And I believe this division has existed for a very long time, including in Bell Beaker times.

    So what I think we will see, and I think you might agree with this, is that the Sicanians/pre-Greek pre-Phoenician Sicilians would have been predominantly similar to other East Mediterranean Europeans of the time (Mycenaeans, Minoans) but likely shifted somewhat west by the WHG element. I do not think, given the CHG element being Minoan levels, that they would have been near Iberians or plotting right alongside North Italian BB. I can agree to shifted toward them somewhat, but not plotting with them.

    I think Greek input arrived and certainly reduced the WHG element and reinforced the CHG element already there, but would not have drastically changed where Sicilians plot... on the other hand, the Levantine input is what drags Sicily east of where it "should" plot geographically.
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 12-03-2018 at 10:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Here is why I disagree with this, although I now KIND OF understand what you're saying about the WHG, which seems about half as much in Sicilian BB versus North Italian BB: ancient Sicilians would have had too much CHG input to be firmly in a West Mediterranean cline. It clearly arrived in Sicily in a similar fashion as it arrived into the Aegean, but this wouldn't have made it into the West Med region. In fact, one of the key reasons today why Iberians for instance are further removed from Sicilians genetically than many Middle Eastern populations are, is because West Mediterranean populations, except for North Italy really, severely lack CHG. And I believe this division has existed for a very long time, including in Bell Beaker times.

    So what I think we will see, and I think you might agree with this, is that the Sicanians/pre-Greek pre-Phoenician Sicilians would have been predominantly similar to other East Mediterranean Europeans of the time (Mycenaeans, Minoans) but likely shifted somewhat west by the WHG element. I do not think, given the CHG element being Minoan levels, that they would have been near Iberians or plotting right alongside North Italian BB. I can agree to shifted toward them somewhat, but not plotting with them.

    I think Greek input arrived and certainly reduced the WHG element and reinforced the CHG element already there, but would not have drastically changed where Sicilians plot... on the other hand, the Levantine input is what drags Sicily east of where it "should" plot geographically.
    Well, seeing how North Italian Beaker with Steppe seem to also have CHG, while Sicilian Beaker without Steppe seem to also have CHG, I believe there might be some shifting towards the East somewhere along Italy (perhaps even as North as BA Tuscany), and that maybe Italy as a whole was the border between West Med and East Med, but I would be shocked if BA Sicilians and South Italians would look like Mycenaeans or Minoans - ie full East Mediterraneans. As I said, I expect there to be some cline, similar to how MODERN Iberian populations seem to nicely cline toward MODERN North Italians - I expect this cline to perhaps continue all the way to Sicily, having more and more CHG, and somewhat less WHG.

    But I as I said over and over, I'd be very surprised to learn that South Italians and Sicilians plotted as full East Mediterranean Minoans or Myceanaeans before the settlement of, and as the result of, Greek colonies, as you seem to claim.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 12-04-2018 at 08:33 AM.
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