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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #4291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    This look suspiciously like the correlation maps for Western Jews. What are the chances you get Sicily because of similar components Sicilians have - Hellenic, some Italian, Levantine and North African?

    Also, Targum mentioned the case of Neofiti in South Italy and Sicily - basically Italian Anusim. Could be that some Sicilians share Sephardic ancestry with you as they actually do have Sephardic origin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neofiti

    http://www.jewishwikipedia.info/neofiti.html
    You're right, it's possible that it's similar components. Although, I was under the impression that this new beta update is based on recent ancestor locations of other "DNA Relatives." Looking at my DNA relatives list, there's not one person from Italy on there. I'm assuming these customers/DNA relatives have not publicly stated where they are from to appear on the DNA relatives list and have opted to put in their information in on one of 23andme's ancestor location surveys.

    Also, I used to have Spain as a recent ancestor location for my Iberian DNA, but it disappeared recently.
    Last edited by coffeeprince; 12-24-2018 at 09:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeeprince View Post
    You're right, it's possible that it's similar components. Although, I was under the impression that this new beta update is based on recent ancestor locations of other "DNA Relatives." Looking at my DNA relatives list, there's not one person from Italy on there. I'm assuming these customers/DNA relatives have not publicly stated where they are from to appear on the DNA relatives list and have opted to put in their information in on one of 23andme's ancestor location surveys.

    Also, I used to have Spain as a recent ancestor location for my Iberian DNA, but it disappeared recently.
    Either you share Sephardi ancestry with Sicilians, or it's picking up on a common ratio of Levantine, italic, Greek in you and Sicilians.

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  5. #4293
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeeprince View Post
    Here's mine if anyone is interested. The only ancestor location I get is "Italy."
    Also - I have no recent ancestors from Italy.
    Attachment 27912
    This is fascinating.. coffee what is your documented ancestry? Locations? Communities? Etc?

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    Here is 23andMe’s description for both ancestry composition and recent Ancestor locations.


    Attachment 27917
    So data sets are made up of non related individuals with 4 grandparent documented ancestry from country/region.

    Attachment 27918
    You are then matched by strength of Similarity.

    Attachment 27919
    A map is generated by aggregating the ancestral origins of individuals who share a minimum amount of DNA with you.

    So the maps are indeed formed through DNA relatives not Autosomal Similarity.

    So considering the Sicilians in original data set will be picked from 4 grandparent non related families then people matching DNA with these individuals further building data set of Sicilians this is probably from Sephardic Admixture within Sicilian community within last 200 years?
    Or I guess there is always possibility of Sicilian girl joining Sephardic community 200 year ago in Sicily before migrating away from Sicily to other Sephardic community outside Italian Peninsula?
    Last edited by Claudio; 12-24-2018 at 10:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Well actually Dorians had a pretty substantial settlement in Sicily, and this ethnic designation was real enough for the Athenians to send a fleet against Syracuse, which was considered to be inhabited by Dorians loyal to Sparta, in the Peloponnese war (5th century BC).
    This might be why there is a genetic difference in Syracuse and Ragusa compared to other Greek inhabited parts of Sicily and Calabria.

  10. #4296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Well yes, it is possible. Some of the markers widespread in the Balkans also have higher frequencies depending on the community (Libyan Jews for instance) and a fairly good case could be made in favour of a Hellenic origin, however this isn't as clear-cut as one might think (some of the Sephardic branches of J2b2-L283 have matches in Northern Italy for example). If we put this in context, there's no avoiding the fact that the Italic lineages represent a far more prominent share of the lineages.

    I do not think that Western Jews have absolutely no Aegean ancestry, in fact I would surmise that their Judean certainly ancestors had some degree Aegean ancestry to begin with (as the Jews by and large assimilated the Philistines). The Jewish communities in Alexandria and Cyrenaica could also be potential sources, given the Jews' status in these areas it's hard to imagine a scenario where there was no intermarriage.
    Excellent post as usual Aga’! My hunch is that R1b-U152, E-V13 and J2b2-L283 all represent (minor but present) Italic paternal contributions among Western Jews. That said, the overwhelming majority of that North-Central Italian admixture among present-day Ashkenazo-Sephardic people is still bound to be maternal in nature.
    Last edited by Power77; 12-25-2018 at 05:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    This is fascinating.. coffee what is your documented ancestry? Locations? Communities? Etc?
    Half Ashkenazi from Poland and half Sephardic from Southern Morocco - with one Egyptian 2x great-grandparent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    This might be why there is a genetic difference in Syracuse and Ragusa compared to other Greek inhabited parts of Sicily and Calabria.
    I'm not so certain... remember that while the initial Greek poleis in Sicily were founded around the 8th century BC, Sicily was Greek for more than a 1,000 years (first with Greek poleis, then Magna Graecia, then part of the Greek regions of the Roman Empire, then part of the East Roman Empire).

    Syracuse was the most significant Greek city in Sicily, and as I keep repeating this, the capital city of the East Roman Empire for few years - I seriously doubt that there is much Doric admixture left over there.
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    More historical sources of the phenomenon of Godfearers (Greek and Jewish):

    Epictetus


    Epictetus here distinguishes between full-fledged proselytes who undergo baptism and those who merely act like Jews, i.e., “sympathizers.”

    "…Why, then, do you call yourself a Stoic, why do you deceive the multitude, why do you act the part of a Jew, when you are a Greek? … For example, whenever we see a man halting between two faiths, we are in the habit of saying, ´He is not a Jew, he is only acting the part.´ But when he adopts the attitude of mind of the man who has been baptized and has made his choice, then he is both a Jew in fact and is also called one."
    -
    Epictetus (ca. 60-140 CE), Discourses 2.9.19-21.


    Philo [25] – Questions on Exodus 2.2 (on Exodus 22:20 (21)).

    Philo speaks of those who have not actually but only figuratively undergone circumcision.

    Why does [Scripture] in admonishing, ´Thou shalt not oppress a sojourner (ger),´ add, ´For ye were sojourners (gerim) in the land of the Egyptians´?… But what is the mind of the sojourner if not alienation from belief in many gods and familiarity with honoring the one God and Father of all?´[26][27]


    Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 14.110


    Josephus here distinguishes between those who are Jews and those who, without actually becoming Jews, worshipped the G-d of the Jews. [28]

    "But no one need wonder that there was so much wealth in our Temple, for all the Jews throughout the habitable world, and those who worshipped God, even those from Asia and Europe, had been contributing to it for a very long time." [29]


    Josephus, [30] Against Apion 2.282.

    Josephus here mentions several Jewish practices, namely the Sabbath, fast days, lighting of lamps to usher in the Sabbath, and several (though not all) dietary laws that have spread among non-Jews, with the implication that they have not actually become Jews.

    "The masses have long since shown a keen desire to adopt our religious observances; and there is not one city, Greek or barbarian, nor a single nation, to which our custom of abstaining from work on the seventh day has not spread, and where the fasts and the lighting of lamps and many of our prohibitions in the matter of food are not observed." [31]


    A Christian source (although apocryphal)

    "And Pilate, summoning the Jews, says to them: You know that my wife is a worshipper of God, and prefers to adhere to the Jewish religion along with you. ... Annas and Caiaphas say to Pilate: All the multitude of us cry out that he [Jesus] was born of fornication, and are not believed; these [who disagree] are proselytes, and his disciples. And Pilate, calling Annas and Caiaphas, says to them: What are proselytes? They say to him: They are by birth children of the Greeks, and have now become Jews."
    -Acts of Pilate (roughly dated from 150 to 400 CE)




    Obviously, there is substantial historical basis for this. The Talmud and Midrash also discuss the issue of proselytes and Godfearers at the time.
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    The U152 lineages among Ashkenazi remain a bit mysterious to me; there are a few underneath L2, three underneath Z56 and one underneath Z36, as I noticed lately.

    I have taken a look at two lineages underneath Z56. I estimate Z56>L4 at ca. 500 AD and Z56>Y86521 at ca. 400 AD (with a few hundred years margin). These could have entered Jewry during the Roman period but also in the "unclear" period after the Roman age. It is difficult to say anything about the prehistory of these lineages before the Jewish TMRCA's, because these lineages split off from their sister lineages around 1000 BC. The closest sister lineages to L4 (underneath BY807) that I know, are found today in SW Germany and the Channel Islands and those to Y86521 (underneath BY907) on the Isle of Wight and Switzerland. The other lineages I have to take a look at later. Although modern results do not necessarily say anything about the (pre-)historical distribution, this suggests to me an entrance of these lineages in Jewry in (Northern) Italy is not more likely than an entrance in France or along the (Upper) Rhine, although this requires some Jewish populations in these areas during the early Middle Ages. More results are needed, preferably from close non-Jewish lineages. The late and post-Roman period is not the easiest one to deal with.
    Ancestry (approx.): ~88.25% West-European; 6.25% Jewish; ~4.50% Indonesian; ~1.00% (South?)-Indian.

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