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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Just noticed this interesting thread on Twitter posted by Nassim Nicholas Taleb earlier today. He is apparently working on a genetics paper with geneticist Pierre Zalloua. Taleb talks of similar 'strange attributes' of Ashkenazi Jews and Lebanese. It's all very vague, as the nature of Twitter dictates, but interesting nonetheless. On this thread, we have never seen Ashkenazi Jews clustering in this way, nor have I ever seen this pattern in academic papers to date.

    I wonder how their reference panel has been constituted. Cypriots again appear clustering just north of Lebanese Christians and Druze, and presumably they are still using the same academic samples, which may not be reflecting the true, more nuanced position.

    It's an odd PCA, and one looks forward to more details on the methodology and samples used. It is, in effect, an attempt to create a joint north Levant/Caucasus cluster. One thing that I totally agree with Taleb about in his thread post, is how meaningless the term 'Middle East' is within a genetic context.

    pic.twitter.com/vHB3VkteV2


    Interesting! I've always been a little puzzled/intrigued by this PCA plot...

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    Saw the tweet as well. This PCA is from Haber et al.'s 2013 paper Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture. The only new thing here is this:



    I hope this is based on ancient genomic data. There's also a tweet of interest regarding the Khazars:



    A bold statement, given David Reich's track record with regards to the IE homeland, I'll have to see it to believe it. The fact that Nassim Taleb cited Elhaik's latest paper when bugged by all the folks who keep bringing up the Khazar myth (which is still very popular) suggests he doesn't have an in-depth knowledge of this issue.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 01-08-2019 at 02:32 AM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Just noticed this interesting thread on Twitter posted by Nassim Nicholas Taleb earlier today. He is apparently working on a genetics paper with geneticist Pierre Zalloua. Taleb talks of similar 'strange attributes' of Ashkenazi Jews and Lebanese. It's all very vague, as the nature of Twitter dictates, but interesting nonetheless. On this thread, we have never seen Ashkenazi Jews clustering in this way, nor have I ever seen this pattern in academic papers to date.

    I wonder how their reference panel has been constituted. Cypriots again appear clustering just north of Lebanese Christians and Druze, and presumably they are still using the same academic samples, which may not be reflecting the true, more nuanced position.

    It's an odd PCA, and one looks forward to more details on the methodology and samples used. It is, in effect, an attempt to create a joint north Levant/Caucasus cluster. One thing that I totally agree with Taleb about in his thread post, is how meaningless the term 'Middle East' is within a genetic context.

    pic.twitter.com/vHB3VkteV2


    Nassim is a very interesting thinker, and I've avidly read all his books. But: his identity politics corrupt his views on East Mediterranean genetics and Semitic linguistics. I'll be curious to know what he's hinting at. I know that years ago he endorsed the theory that Sephardim are descended from Phoenician colonists in the West Mediterranean...

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    Anyone have a sense for what % of the Libyan Jewish mix is of Sephardic origin (same q re: other NAJ groups)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Nassim is a very interesting thinker, and I've avidly read all his books. But: his identity politics corrupt his views on East Mediterranean genetics and Semitic linguistics. I'll be curious to know what he's hinting at. I know that years ago he endorsed the theory that Sephardim are descended from Phoenician colonists in the West Mediterranean...
    What an understatement that is... I can understand why he rejects Arab identity, and indeed there are grounds to do so, but his repeated claims that Lebanese Arabic is sraight-up Phoenician (or Canaanite-Aramaic) are delusional. Truth be told, there's an entire Lebanese clique that surrounds him (very active on Twitter), it's an echo chamber of sorts.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    What an understatement that is... I can understand why he rejects Arab identity, and indeed there are grounds to do so, but his repeated claims that Lebanese Arabic is sraight-up Phoenician (or Canaanite-Aramaic) are delusional. Truth be told, there's an entire Lebanese clique that surrounds him (very active on Twitter), it's an echo chamber of sorts.
    Right. By his logic, Egyptian Arabic is Aramaic too...
    And I was recently arguing with a Greek groupie of his, who was claiming that Taleb having J2b meant he was "half-Greek". So many things wrong with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Right. By his logic, Egyptian Arabic is Aramaic too...
    And I was recently arguing with a Greek groupie of his, who was claiming that Taleb having J2b meant he was "half-Greek". So many things wrong with that.
    Egyptian Arabic is arguably more Coptic than Lebanese Arabic is Phoenician, that's for sure. As for J2b1-M205 being Greek, that's quite unlikely, especially given its presence in Bronze Age Amorites and Sidonians, this is a lineage that keeps showing up alongside J1-L862 in ancient remains (this has already happened three times), the Roman-era Near Eastern sample from Driffield Terrace also was J2b1... Yet he insists on labeling J1 "Arab" regardless of the context (or branch), needless to say I'm about as Arab as he's Greek. So yeah, this is wrong on many different levels.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 01-08-2019 at 02:51 AM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Reading some of the Twitter comments, it's a little disturbing (though not surprising) that people buy into the idea that Ashkenazim are some isolated ancient tribe as opposed to a population of mixed ancestries that emerged ~1000 years ago. It seems pretty obvious from the PCA that we're pulled to toward Armenians/Turks due to Eastern and Central European admixture.

    From the same study as the PCA:

    QZfrGri.jpg

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    I'm sure Taleb is a brilliant statistician, but he's also a narcissistic bully who makes pronouncements with a cloying air of expertise that is totally unearned. And when he veers into areas outside statistics (which he often does), he should always be taken with a grain of salt.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I'm sure Taleb is a brilliant statistician, but he's also a narcissistic bully who makes pronouncements with a cloying air of expertise that is totally unearned. And when he veers into areas outside statistics (which he often does), he should always be taken with a grain of salt.
    It's just psychology. That's because of a group of admirers around him. I agree, he worked much in the past to get this admiration now. I even agree that it is OK to behave like a narcissistic bully if you deal with a group of people who ignore reason, continue spreading nonsense, but cannot be ignored because of their influence and position in the society.
    But now he got used to behaving in such a way, and a group of loud admirers makes him feel like a star, like a genius who could never be wrong.

    If Taleb really insists all the J1 is Arab and branches do not matter, like Agamemnon said, that means he completely fails to understand how to deal with Y-chromosomes data.
    Last edited by artemv; 01-08-2019 at 02:52 PM.

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