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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Not at all - on the contrary, the fact that Levant_N suddenly appears in the Iron Age samples to me means that certainly, the significant Levantine admixture seen in South Italians is post-BA. The fact that there was a "tail" towards Syrians and Iraqi Jews also tells us this.

    HOWEVER, at least in Central Italy, this Levantine admixture was sporadic and inhomogeneous - which probably means some penetration from South Italy - as opposed to the centroid of the Central Italian plotting which is similar to modern S. Italians / Sicilians.
    That means that the Levantine admixture wasn't a crucial admixture that brought those ancient Romans to plot as modern Sicilians / S. Italians.

    In any case, while there is no doubt in my mind that the elevated Levantine admixture in Calabrians most likely originate from Levantine-admixed Sicilians crossing the strait of Messina, given there is no record of substantial direct Levantine settlement in continental Italy, PLUS the fact that Levantine admixture in those Sicilian-like ancient Romans is sporadic, I believe that again, Levantine admixture is not the crucial component in producing this East Mediterranean Continuum admixture.

    So let me make sure I understand what you and others are saying here:

    1. Sicilians and Calabrians have genuine Levantine admixture from Phoenicians (with Calabria receiving theirs via Sicily) but other southern Italians plot where they do, as East Mediterranean, along with ancient Roman samples, primarily because of something Aegean, whereas the Levantine input in Sicily/Calabria is a secondary or tertiary element that reinforces their plotting position and/or brought them back "south" to counterbalance possible Northern influences,

    2. Levantine admixture in the Roman era was not yet stabilized across the population as it is now,

    3. Different groups can plot in similar positions but be made up of entirely different components, thus there are reasons people could plot near modern Sicilians but not have Levantine influence, while Sicilians have it and plot where they do because there must have been other elements counterbalancing the Levantine input and restoring them to their position today.

    4. Aegean influences (i.e. groups resembling modern Aegean islanders) formed the basis of the central and southern Italian population, and similarly to how Greeks from the mainland have Slavic influence, the gradient in central Italy to the south today as it deviates from Sicilians/Cretans/Aegean islanders is based on varying degrees of Germanic input, similar to how Greeks form a gradient based on their Slavic input.

    Is this generally what you're saying?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    So let me make sure I understand what you and others are saying here:

    1. Sicilians and Calabrians have genuine Levantine admixture from Phoenicians (with Calabria receiving theirs via Sicily) but other southern Italians plot where they do, as East Mediterranean, along with ancient Roman samples, primarily because of something Aegean, whereas the Levantine input in Sicily/Calabria is a secondary or tertiary element that reinforces their plotting position and/or brought them back "south" to counterbalance possible Northern influences,

    2. Levantine admixture in the Roman era was not yet stabilized across the population as it is now,

    3. Different groups can plot in similar positions but be made up of entirely different components, thus there are reasons people could plot near modern Sicilians but not have Levantine influence, while Sicilians have it and plot where they do because there must have been other elements counterbalancing the Levantine input and restoring them to their position today.

    4. Aegean influences (i.e. groups resembling modern Aegean islanders) formed the basis of the central and southern Italian population, and similarly to how Greeks from the mainland have Slavic influence, the gradient in central Italy to the south today as it deviates from Sicilians/Cretans/Aegean islanders is based on varying degrees of Germanic input, similar to how Greeks form a gradient based on their Slavic input.

    Is this generally what you're saying?
    I really donít think Phoenicians had any lasting impression regarding Autosomal Admixture in Sicily and Calabria.
    If Sicilians and Calabrians do indeed have direct Levantine Admixture this is also due to Muslim era and Byzantine era (especially the Byzantine Era) itís connection to Greek Orthodox Church recieving regular Admixture top up so to speak of Byzantine Greeks (Syrians,Anatolians,pre Turkic West Asians,Armenians etc..
    Iím pretty Sure both Mainland Central Italy and Sicily recieved migrant Admixture from these same listed areas but only during Magna Greacia and Roman period before fall of Rome and the subsequent Germanic invasions, where as Sicily and Calabria continued to receive this type of Admixture all through Byzantine period.
    Last edited by Claudio; 02-09-2019 at 08:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    I really don’t think Phoenicians had any lasting impression regarding Autosomal Admixture in Sicily and Calabria.
    If Sicilians and Calabrians do indeed have direct Levantine Admixture this is also due to Muslim era and Byzantine era (especially the Byzantine Era) it’s connection to Greek Orthodox Church recieving regular Admixture top up so to speak of Byzantine Greeks (Syrians,Anatolians,pre Turkic West Asians,Armenians etc..
    I’m pretty Sure both Mainland Central Italy and Sicily recieved migrant Admixture from these same listed areas but only during Magna Greacia and Roman period before fall of Rome and the subsequent Germanic invasions, where as Sicily and Calabria continued to receive this type of Admixture all through Byzantine period.
    So you think Levantine admixture in Sicily and Calabria is from Hellenized West Asian people in the Levant, Anatolia, and Armenia settling there. This may also be the case for the Aegean islands, then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    So you think Levantine admixture in Sicily and Calabria is from Hellenized West Asian people in the Levant, Anatolia, and Armenia settling there. This may also be the case for the Aegean islands, then.
    Yes I agree.
    But I also think it’s the case during the Magna Greacia and Roman period, people’s who are Greco West Asians/Levantines
    So some of them would of come directly from the Levant.
    Some from West Asia.
    Some just Greek Islanders carrying both Levantine and West Asian Admixture.
    I just think the fall of Western Roman Empire and Germanic invasions put a stop to this process in Central and to an extent Southern Italy.
    But the process carried on in Byzantine Sicily,Calabria. and later under kingdom of Sicily/Naples etc some of this near Eastern Admixture made its way back up through Southern Italy with migrations from deeper south so to Speak.
    Last edited by Claudio; 02-09-2019 at 09:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    And this would imply to me that the pre-Greek South Italians already plotted like Aegean people which is opposite of what Erikl86 is saying.

    If anything, I no longer think Greek input in southern Italy is needed at all to explain the similarities between southern Italians and Aegean islanders.

    I do think southern Italians have Greek ancestry YES obviously, and I don't want to be mistaken for saying otherwise, but I think that it will be increasingly difficult to separate Italic and Greek ancestry in southern Italy, while the Levantine will stand out.
    To some extent, it does indeed mean that pre-Greek South Italians already were in the Eastern Mediterranean continuum. As you said, Greek ancestry probably won't suffice to explain the similarity, and the odds are in favour of a widespread dissemination of similar populations around the Mediterranean prior to the establishment of Greek colonies. A multitude of ancient tribes and peoples, among them the Oenotrians, the Sicels, the Elymians, the Sicanii and countless others still (such as the people who spoke the elusive Pre-Samnite language) could potentially find themselves in the Eastern Mediterranean continuum.

    That being said, discarding Greek input in Southern Italy is an extreme position which, in my opinion, would not even begin to fit with the data anyway. I continue to think that South Italians starting from the south of the Matera and Potenza provinces owe the majority of their ancestry to the Greek settlers, Greek settlement most assuredly was the turning point in the Mezzogiorno's demographic history. Such a view finds itself in solid genetic, linguistic and historical footing with relatively few exceptions (such as Cosenza) which will be difficult to evaluate if the Oscan-speaking peoples truly were similar to the Greeks.

    I very much agree with your last sentence, the Levantine component should clearly stand out.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 02-09-2019 at 09:27 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    So let me make sure I understand what you and others are saying here:

    1. Sicilians and Calabrians have genuine Levantine admixture from Phoenicians (with Calabria receiving theirs via Sicily) but other southern Italians plot where they do, as East Mediterranean, along with ancient Roman samples, primarily because of something Aegean, whereas the Levantine input in Sicily/Calabria is a secondary or tertiary element that reinforces their plotting position and/or brought them back "south" to counterbalance possible Northern influences.


    2. Levantine admixture in the Roman era was not yet stabilized across the population as it is now,


    4. Aegean influences (i.e. groups resembling modern Aegean islanders) formed the basis of the central and southern Italian population, and similarly to how Greeks from the mainland have Slavic influence, the gradient in central Italy to the south today as it deviates from Sicilians/Cretans/Aegean islanders is based on varying degrees of Germanic input, similar to how Greeks form a gradient based on their Slavic input.

    Is this generally what you're saying?
    Pretty much, yes, except for two things:

    3. Different groups can plot in similar positions but be made up of entirely different components, thus there are reasons people could plot near modern Sicilians but not have Levantine influence, while Sicilians have it and plot where they do because there must have been other elements counterbalancing the Levantine input and restoring them to their position today.
    The shared Levantine admixture between all East Mediterranean people assist and further increase their affinity towards each other. Let's say that without it, only roughly ~50% of their admixture would be similar, the rest different. Considering the different contemporary East Mediterranean populations have anything from 10-45% Levantine on top of their shared 50% Aegean-like substrate, increase and counter balance all sorts of Slavic, North West European or North African admixtures, which would make these populations cluster together, but perhaps less "tightly".

    Even those ancient Central Italian Sicilian-like samples had some Levantine admixture (albeit non-homogeneous), don't forget.

    And also, in no. 4:

    gradient in central Italy to the south today as it deviates from Sicilians/Cretans/Aegean islanders is based on varying degrees of Germanic input
    I disagree with this because we don't know yet if it's Germanic admixture that North-shifted Central Italian to where they are plotted today. It's tempting to believe so, but as I've explained in one of my previous posts, you then have to explain away how North Italians weren't affected as much by this Germanic geneflow, as it must have entered from the North, and yet there is relatively high degree of genetic continuity in North Italy from the BB N. Italy samples all the way to the Late Antiquity Collegno samples and now we also know Central Italian plotted similar to the way BB N. Italians plotted prior to the post-IA migrations into Italy.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 02-09-2019 at 09:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    To some extent, it does indeed mean that pre-Greek South Italians already were in the Eastern Mediterranean continuum. As you said, Greek ancestry probably won't suffice to explain the similarity, and the odds are in favour of a widespread dissemination of similar populations around the Mediterranean prior to the establishment of Greek colonies. A multitude of ancient tribes and peoples, among them the Oenotrians, the Sicels, the Elymians, the Sicanii and countless others still (such as the people who spoke the elusive Pre-Samnite language) could potentially find themselves in the Eastern Mediterranean continuum.

    That being said, discarding Greek input in Southern Italy is an extreme position which, in my opinion, would not even begin to fit with the data anyway. I continue to think that South Italians starting from the south of the Matera and Potenza provinces owe the majority of their ancestry to the Greek settlers, Greek settlement most assuredly was the turning point in the Mezzogiorno's demographic history. Such a view finds itself in solid genetic, linguistic and historical footing with relatively few exceptions (such as Cosenza) which will be difficult to evaluate if the Oscan-speaking peoples truly were similar to the Greeks.

    I very much agree with your last sentence, the Levantine component should clearly stand out.
    I kind of agree with your second and third paragraphs.

    However, I must have misunderstood your previous post, as I interpreted what you said about the Oscan speaking populations in South Italy being hard to separate from Hellenic populations to mean the following: if such high degree of Hellenic ancestry penetrated all the way to Central Italy to make Romans Aegean-like, surely it have worked its way in South Italy before that, making the Oscan speaking population there extremely Hellenic-like genetically speaking. However, in your comment here to Sikeliot you seem to believe that "To some extent, it does indeed mean that pre-Greek South Italians already were in the Eastern Mediterranean continuum.", which is the complete opposite of this.

    I actually believe that this recent find, that pre-IA migrations Central Italians were genetically homogeneous and were quite similar to North Italians BB and contemporary Sardinians, and quite different from Minoans and Mycenaeans, would pretty much diminish the possibility that South Italians would resemble East Mediterraneans as well, especially considering how ethnically close the Oscan speaking tribes and the Latins were.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 02-09-2019 at 09:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Some just Greek Islanders carrying both Levantine and West Asian Admixture.
    I think Aegean islands and South Italy acquired Levantine admixture at the same time, from a common outside source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    To some extent, it does indeed mean that pre-Greek South Italians already were in the Eastern Mediterranean continuum. As you said, Greek ancestry probably won't suffice to explain the similarity, and the odds are in favour of a widespread dissemination of similar populations around the Mediterranean prior to the establishment of Greek colonies. A multitude of ancient tribes and peoples, among them the Oenotrians, the Sicels, the Elymians, the Sicanii and countless others still (such as the people who spoke the elusive Pre-Samnite language) could potentially find themselves in the Eastern Mediterranean continuum.
    I agree with all of this. I think southern Italians are a mixture, primarily, of 3 groups -- Italic peoples who predated Greek settlers, Greek settlers themselves (who would absolutely NOT be similar to modern day, heavily Slavic mainland Greeks) and Levantines -- with the first two groups being genetically similar and the Levantines being distinct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I agree with all of this. I think southern Italians are a mixture, primarily, of 3 groups -- Italic peoples who predated Greek settlers, Greek settlers themselves (who would absolutely NOT be similar to modern day, heavily Slavic mainland Greeks) and Levantines -- with the first two groups being genetically similar and the Levantines being distinct.
    I really fail to see how this latest finding only re-enforced your belief that pre-Greek settlement South Italians were genetically similar to those Greek settlers, when the new evidence presented points to the complete opposite, unless you consider Sardinian-like to be East Mediterranean-like
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