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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #4901
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    I wonder if genetic affinity between Krymchaks and Ashkenazim could be due to shared pre-Ashkenazi Eastern European Jews.

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    Doubtful; the shared segments are with Ashkenazim of today, and the common ancestors date to the Ottoman periods, per Dr. Kevin Brook. Also thisis not such an exotic community. The migration of Ashkenazim to Crimea is well documented and the Sdeh Hemed (Rabbi Hhizqiyah Medini, a Jerusalem-born Sefaradi Torah scholar drafted as the Rabbi of Crimea in the 19th century), discusses Krymchak history (Hebrew) in some of his works.

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    Krymchaklar intermarried extensively with Ashkenazi Jews, ever since Crimea became part of the Pale of Settlement. Originally, I'd assume they were like the Romaniotes, I think the bulk of their ancestors were Byzantine Jews. There seem to have been links to Iranian and Iraqi Jewry as well. This could perhaps explain my father's slight pull towards the Romaniotes on David's Mediterranean PCA:



    My father's mother was of Krymchak descent, she herself was born in Simferopol in 1918. There's this notion that the Krymchaks were better off than Ashkenazi Jews, there's certainly some truth to this if I compare her family to my paternal grandfather's family. Her family were, in a sense, "aristocrats" (just repeating what I was told), her father was a criminal lawyer and his family owned tobacco factories, he also was an accomplished polyglot who knew not only the traditional Jewish languages (Hebrew, Aramaic) but also Russian, Ukrainian, Greek and Tatar (these he had to know because of his profession) among many others. Her family fled Crimea shortly after she was born, fearing the Red Army would execute them. My paternal grandfather's family on the other hand came from what is now NErn Belarus, most of them were poor, many were tanners and others made tallitot (or "tallisim" as they called them) for which the town they came from was rather famous, they fled in 1905 during the wave of pogroms.

    That being said, there are several typically Ashkenazi names on her side of the family, so it's not like she was 100% Krymchak.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 02-27-2019 at 12:26 AM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #4904
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Krymchaklar intermarried extensively with Ashkenazi Jews, ever since Crimea became part of the Pale of Settlement. Originally, I'd assume they were like the Romaniotes, I think the bulk of their ancestors were Byzantine Jews. There seem to have been links to Iranian and Iraqi Jewry as well. This could perhaps explain my father's slight pull towards the Romaniotes on David's Mediterranean PCA:



    My father's mother was of Krymchak descent, she herself was born in Simferopol in 1918. There's this notion that the Krymchaks were better off than Ashkenazi Jews, there's certainly some truth to this if I compare her family to my paternal grandfather's family. Her family were, in a sense, "aristocrats" (just repeating what I was told), her father was a criminal lawyer and his family owned tobacco factories, he also was an accomplished polyglot who knew not only the traditional Jewish languages (Hebrew, Aramaic) but also Russian, Ukrainian, Greek and Tatar (these he had to know because of his profession) among many others. Her family fled Crimea shortly after she was born, fearing the Red Army would execute them. My paternal grandfather's family on the other hand came from what is now NErn Belarus, most of them were poor, many were tanners and others made tallitot (or "tallisim" as they called them) for which the town they came from was rather famous, they fled in 1905 during the wave of pogroms.

    That being said, there are several typically Ashkenazi names on her side of the family, so it's not like she was 100% Krymchak.
    Aga, thanks for sharing this. I'm really curious as to the Hebrew the Krymchaks used in their prayers - was it Ashkenazi or Sephardic? do we know?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Getting close to 500 pages, Erik. Congrats.

    The ultimate source of East Mediterranean affinity in Jews is interesting, of course, but I'm also interested in the timing of the event(s). I know you've commented that some of it might have come as early as the Philistines, but if so, wouldn't we expect that to show up in Samaritans? Assuming the Israelite ancestors of Jews and Samaritans were homogeneous, of course.

    I believe you've also speculated that the Mediterranean gene flow into Jewish ancestors could have happened anytime after the construction of the Second Temple. If you had to guess, how likely do you think it is that the Jews at the onset of the Common Era (e.g., Jesus) will cluster like Romaniotes or Syrian Jews instead of like Samaritans?

    Well, the jury is still out for whether or not Philistines were genetically Aegean, or perhaps mostly "Aegeanized" Canaanites which the few Philistines took leadership on when they landed in the Southern Levant.

    I'm still anxiously waiting for any news about the 150 Philistine graves found near Ashkelon few years ago.

    As for the Samaritans not having any substantial Hellenic-like (or East Mediterranean-like) admixture in them - the chromosomal analysis I've published above actually shows something different. It first of all shows substantial Mesopotamian drift among large portion of the Samaritan chromosomes, which isn't evident from the regular admixture calculations we usually do. It also show very few - 1-2 - chromosomes which seem to drift towards the "southern" members of the East Mediterranean Continuum.

    Jonahst once suggested that perhaps there was a bounce - that it's extremely unlikely Samaritans remained N. Levant BA-like all these years, and that perhaps they used to plot differently, but something drawn back to plot like N. Levant BA. We couldn't see it in the ADMIX calculations we did so far, but several uniparental studies on Samaritans have shown evidence that maternally they share subclades with Iraqi Jews (which share maternal subclades with Mesopotamians).

    So it just might be that jonahst's assumption is correct. There's also another possibility, that Samaritans indeed mostly descend from "Northern" Israelites (as the bible claims) which had very little mixing with Philistines, while Jews descend mainly from the tribes of Judah and Shimon, which were bordering the Philistines and indeed did mix with them. However, IMO, this is a less likely scenario.

    In any case, my belief is that the vast majority of any Hellenic-like ancestry in Jews entered during Hellenistic times and Greco-Roman times. This is where we actually see cultural and religious as well as historical documentation of such mixing and the rise of Hellenistic Judaism.

    It's plausible that late Second Temple (aka 1st-2nd centuries BC to 1st-2nd centuries AD) Jews were actually a non-homogeneous people genetically speaking. Hellenistic Jews tended to mix and intermarry with Greco-Romans, while other denominations didn't. And while Christianity became popular among Hellenistic Jews, it initially rose among Pharisee Jews - which tended to frown on Hellenism.
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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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  11. #4906
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    If we're going to re-visit the Anatolian-drift we've seen in the three Western Jews samples that were posted above, I've recently came across the Hypsistarians, worshippers of the Hypsistos, which was a cult of quasi-proselytes Godfearers which elevated Zeus or other another pagan deity to the rank of the Jewish god (essentially replaced him with the pagan god) but kept on Jewish commandments, and existed around 200 BC to around AD 400. They existed mainly in Asia Minor (Cappadocia, Bithynia and Pontus) and the Black Sea coasts.

    In the Septuagint the root word "hypsisto-" occurs more than fifty times as a substitution for the name of God or in direct relation to him, so essentially their name is translated into cult of God (THE god as appears in the Greek Jewish bible at the time).


    They had some customs in common with the Jews - the keeping of the Sabbath, keeping Kosher - but they rejected circumcision.


    In the wikipedia article on them it is said that:
    The existence of Hypsistarians may have contributed to the astounding swiftness of the spread of Christianity in Asia Minor; yet not all of them accepted the new faith, and small communities of monotheists, neither Christians nor Jews, continued to exist, especially in Cappadocia.
    They are documented to have been "fraternizing" with the Jewish communities of Asia Minor. So it may very well be that they contributed to the Anatolian admixture we have seen in those samples. Of course we need a much larger sampling - but this takes time as essentially I need to plot 22 K15 results each time.
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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    Here's another chromosomal results of Ashkenazi Jew.

    Two things which are interesting to see:
    1. Chr15 and Chr11 seem to show drift towards N. Italian/Iberian.
    2. Chr19 and Chr22 seem to show Levantine drift.
    3. Chr16, Chr9 and Chr18 seem to show Anatolian to Caucasus drift (North Anatolian?).

    This sample also seem to perhaps have elevated Slavic admixture compare to myself, evident by the Slavic shift clustering just above Ashkenazi.

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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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  15. #4908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Here's another chromosomal results of Ashkenazi Jew.

    Two things which are interesting to see:
    1. Chr15 and Chr11 seem to show drift towards N. Italian/Iberian.
    2. Chr19 and Chr22 seem to show Levantine drift.
    3. Chr16, Chr9 and Chr18 seem to show Anatolian to Caucasus drift (North Anatolian?).

    This sample also seem to perhaps have elevated Slavic admixture compare to myself, evident by the Slavic shift clustering just above Ashkenazi.

    What image-editing software with coordinates do you use? This is really fascinating, but tedious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    What image-editing software with coordinates do you use? This is really fascinating, but tedious.
    The simplest one - Paint.NET.

    I would probably write a macro tomorrow to automatically fill in the 15 form fields in the K15 PCA site.

    Best would be to probably re-create it in PAST with the K15 table - but for some reason the different averages do not end up in the same position they do as in the K15 PCA from that site.
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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    What image-editing software with coordinates do you use? This is really fascinating, but tedious.
    Joining the question, would like to try this thing myself as well if possible
    edit: whoops didn't see the reply :-P
    I can be certain of one thing, that I know nothing.

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