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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #4981
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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    Is her Sephardic part Dutch Portugese Sephardi?
    Yes, half of the Sephardic ancestors came to Amsterdam directly from Portugal, the other half came to Amsterdam from other post-expulsion places, generally Livorno, also Pisa, Venice, Salonica and perhaps Morocco. I think it is possible that there was some admixture with non-Sephardic Jews especially in Italy.

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  3. #4982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    Yes, half of the Sephardic ancestors came to Amsterdam directly from Portugal, the other half came to Amsterdam from other post-expulsion places, generally Livorno, also Pisa, Venice, Salonica and perhaps Morocco. I think it is possible that there was some admixture with non-Sephardic Jews especially in Italy.
    Well, I did not intent to ask about the history of dutch jews in general which I know adequately well. I asked specifically about your grandmother (3/16 Ashk, 1/16 Seph). Whatever the case, you might never find matches because first you might not recognize Sephardic names/surnames in general, second there are not so many public Sephardi samples around and third as you know most sephardic jews in the netherlands died during the holocaust which affected them demographically more severely than their ashkenazi countrymen.
    Last edited by eolien; 03-08-2019 at 01:19 PM.

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  5. #4983
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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    Well, I did not intent to ask about the history of dutch jews in general which I know adequately well. I asked specifically about your grandmother (3/16 Ashk, 1/16 Seph). Whatever the case, you might never find matches because first you might not recognize Sephardic names/surnames in general, second there are not so many public Sephardi samples around and third as you know most sephardic jews in the netherlands died during the holocaust which affected them demographically more severely than their ashkenazi countrymen.
    I described the history of her specific Sephardic ancestry, which I know well, indeed it overlaps with the general history. One example, her ancestor from Livorno (1/64) is number 13 in this tree (which I believe is slightly outdated now for the first generations). Her Ashkenazi is mainly German. It will indeed be difficult to find Sephardic matches; the group was never large, and many intermarried with Ashkenazi since the 19th century.
    Last edited by Pylsteen; 03-08-2019 at 01:43 PM.

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    Just got my chromosome analysis back from Lukasz: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-RbnkkSEi-0hepL2AK3Jwcl9cqfz8Xz0/view

    Really interesting results, what do you guys think?

    Maps:
    CQAE56F.jpg
    UUPUsK8.jpg

    No question that we Ashkenazim are very mixed

    EDIT: Updated with higher quality.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by jonahst; 03-08-2019 at 10:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Just got my chromosome analysis back from Lukasz: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aOZ...xoERKwRO-/view

    Really interesting results, what do you guys think?

    Maps:
    BzsRtFN.jpg

    3jQaOuN.jpg

    No question that we Ashkenazim are very mixed
    Too bad it's such a chore to see it because of the bottleneck effect, damn you crusaders/black death xD
    I can be certain of one thing, that I know nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Just got my chromosome analysis back from Lukasz: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aOZ...xoERKwRO-/view

    Really interesting results, what do you guys think?

    Maps:
    BzsRtFN.jpg

    3jQaOuN.jpg

    No question that we Ashkenazim are very mixed
    Well both N. Italian, German AND Greek islanders and even some Balkan admixture detected. You also have some N. Levantine admixture (which is not surprising).

    WHAT is interesting, that you have no Slavic admixture, which is extremely strange, as this admixture supposedly entered our collective gene pool post bottleneck.

    You also have some clutter around other Western Jews (from N. African Jews to Ashkenazi Jews), which again, is not surprising.

    Another interesting aspect is that the German population you plot with is actually around Austrian/S. Germans, which is interesting as contemporary theory actually puts Yiddish' origins in Bavarian dialects rather than Rhine dialects.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 03-08-2019 at 06:47 PM.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    I do actually get some Slavic. Chromosome 1 is 11% Finnish and 5% Latvian, chromosome 5 is 9% Ukrainian, 19 is like 10% Russian, and 20 is 11% Latvian. But overall, it's very little and I wonder if the Balkan reflects a partial Romaniote/Knaanic origin for some of the Eastern European ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    I do actually get some Slavic. Chromosome 1 is 11% Finnish and 5% Latvian, chromosome 5 is 9% Ukrainian, 19 is like 10% Russian, and 20 is 11% Latvian. But overall, it's very little and I wonder if the Balkan reflects a partial Romaniote/Knaanic origin for some of the Eastern European ancestry.
    There's also some Neumark on Ch. 21, which is a heavily West-Slavic admixed German sample.
    1 Jew_Ashkenazy_Poland +Volga-German Custom:AGUser_Eihwaz 1.7783 85.83 14.17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Well both N. Italian, German AND Greek islanders and even some Balkan admixture detected. You also have some N. Levantine admixture (which is not surprising).

    WHAT is interesting, that you have no Slavic admixture, which is extremely strange, as this admixture supposedly entered our collective gene pool post bottleneck.

    You also have some clutter around other Western Jews (from N. African Jews to Ashkenazi Jews), which again, is not surprising.

    Another interesting aspect is that the German population you plot with is actually around Austrian/S. Germans, which is interesting as contemporary theory actually puts Yiddish' origins in Bavarian dialects rather than Rhine dialects.
    Jonah's results have some similarity to my dad's* which have large amounts East Balkan and also Cantabrian and "Romanian" that I can't specifically account for -- maybe a group that stayed west/south when others went into more northern Eastern Europe?
    Dad's results are difficult to parse as he is only about 10% Ashkenazi on paper, but the ones I can track were all in the Rhineland in the 1600s, not east; and the family converted (marrying German and Belgian Catholics) when Napoleon invaded so there isn't any input from those Ashkenazim who came back to Germany from the east later.
    Also, Jonah's Ch 7 and Dad's Ch 3 are almost in the exact same spot although with different component makeup, and Jonah's 22 and 2 lie near Dad's 11, 15, and 16. It might not mean anything at all since the actual chromosomes aren't matching, though.

    *Results here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pPi...r8l516cLK/view
    Last edited by Dewsloth; 03-08-2019 at 08:17 PM.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 (S17075-)

    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  19. #4990
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    I do actually get some Slavic. Chromosome 1 is 11% Finnish and 5% Latvian, chromosome 5 is 9% Ukrainian, 19 is like 10% Russian, and 20 is 11% Latvian. But overall, it's very little and I wonder if the Balkan reflects a partial Romaniote/Knaanic origin for some of the Eastern European ancestry.
    This just might be. I also see that Chr3 plots with Cappadocian Greeks (Central Anatolian Greeks in Lukasz' references), which means it's quite important component as it's among your first chromosomes.
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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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