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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #5001
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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    The big black dots near the Sephardic samples are to my surprise the Sidon BA samples, 2 near S13 and one near S16. I could be a sequencing or calculator artifact because they are not positioned near the lebanese samples.
    That definitely can't be correct and they may have been poorly processed genomes that were uploaded to gedmatch. I would expect them to land where Samaritans are but maybe the tiniest bit shifted towards Lebanese Christians or Libyan Jews.

    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    My father's K36 chromosome report by Lucasz is out. I don't know how to interpret it. Comments are welcome, esp. on population breakdowns.
    Quite a few of the chromosomes show a consistent North African strain, which most the time isn't directed towards Moroccans and Mozabites but Libyans and Tunisians from the looks of it. Perhaps these Berbers descend from a North African strain all Western Jews share Cyrenaica during Greek rule. Not sure if I noticed any obvious Iberian drift. Unfortunately like other Jewish results, your fathers are no easier when it comes to spotting a difference between what could Roman-era Greek or Southern Italian admixture.

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  3. #5002
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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    My father's K36 chromosome report by Lucasz is out. I don't know how to interpret it. Comments are welcome, esp. on population breakdowns.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GDt...ew?usp=sharing






    Thanks for posting this. I actually fail to see any N. African admixture at all. He seem to have substantial plotting around Greeks and Balkan people, as well as Anatolian-admixed populations, and some small N. Italian admixture.

    He also has more Levantine plotting chromosomes than the other Jews we've plotted here.

    In fact, I think that the fact that we're talking about single chromosomes here, it's quite a strong proof that the reason Western Jews cluster the way they do is not because they are half N. Italian, half Levantine, but indeed because they have substantial S. Italian / Aegean-Greek like component.

    If it was indeed the case of the half and half model, then I would expect that 40-30% of the chromosomes would plot among N. Italians, 50-60% among Levantines, and the rest among N. Africans or Slavic populations.

    Obviously, it's not as simple as that. In both Sephardic and Ashkenazi plots, both in Lukasz' reports and the K15 report we posted here, it's quite consistent that only 2 chromosomes plot with N. Italians.

    Of course, if each chromosome should also be broken into admixture, like 50% Levantine, 50% N. Italian, then one would see pretty much all chromosomes plot with Sephardic Jews pr Ashkenazi Jews, or in the case of the other populations - with the respective populations. Obviously, this isn't the case.
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  5. #5003
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Wow, so the d÷nmeh (at least those two individuals' ancestors) really didn't marry out much, if at all. (Even if that's the standard narrative, it's always surprising to see in a secret community after a few hundred years; I've found evidence of the same in northeastern Portuguese crypto-Jews.)
    I am definitely limited in 3 samples which are rather coming from well known families. however comparing them to crypto-jews would be misleading. We have to regard them as a sect and therefore their situation is similar to the situation of the Haredi sects. Not only there was no intermarriage between Doenmeh and others but also not between their 3 sects. When they moved to Turkey after 1924, all their social structures had to be rebuilt, in a quasi-secular republic the social pressure was also less effective. There are/were a lot of intermarriages or voluntary assimilation from families that did not belong to the elite.
    Last edited by eolien; 03-12-2019 at 12:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    This is my second contribution for tonight. I tried to make a boring K15 map of some samples I had before going into a chromosomal breakdown.

    It is a bit busy map that requires some information: They are NOT chromosome numbers but sample numbers

    The red ones with S1...S17 are balkan - mostly turkish sefardic samples i collected from gedmatch. Perhaps not surprisingly S11 is a sample that could be partially sefardic with no clear full ancestry record. S19 is a sample that has many iraqi jewish matches, although he/sh is not aware of any such ancestry, S16, S20 and S18 are Syrian jews.

    The blue dots are samples of iraqi jews that perhaps your are familliar with in gedmatch. They are labelled as such there.

    The orange d1, d2 and another invisible one near S7 belong to Doenmeh (jews of sabbatean origins)

    The big black dots near the Sephardic samples are to my surprise the Sidon BA samples, 2 near S13 and one near S16. I could be a sequencing or calculator artifact because they are not positioned near the lebanese samples.

    The big dark gray dots are Turkish samples, the gray one is a Turk from Trabzon and the Adyge one is a pure Adyge, all with clear origins and known to me. The same for the dark blue Balkan turk.

    The smaller dark gray dots are also Turkish samples from gedmatch, they are around province Malatya west of Euphrates river perhpas indicting the border of the eastern-most Turkish samples.


    enjoy

    Thanks for this elaborated PCA. I would differentiate Syrian Jews from Sephardic Jews as they might give the wrong impression that Sephardic Jews plot as Cypriots or much closer to the Levant than they do. S19 would indeed seem to have some Levant/West Asian shifting which causes it to plot between Sephardic Jews and Syrian Jews.

    As for the BA Sidon plots - this is surely wrong. Are these the samples I've uploaded, or you got the kits from another source that uploaded them?

    EDIT: I've plotted 3 of the good Sidon samples I've uploaded to my own account, and they plot somewhere between Christian Lebanese and Samaritans:



    Use these kits instead of the ones you did:

    Z227846 Sidon_ERS1790733
    Z647344 Sidon_ERS1790732
    Z967414 Sidon_ERS1790730
    Last edited by Erikl86; 03-12-2019 at 09:00 AM.
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    Ok so I've also plotted the chromosomes of a Musta'arabi Syrian Jew, and it's quite interesting:



    And I've also added few relevant averages and samples for a reference - Cappadocian Greeks' average, Romaniote Jews average, and the 4 Mycenaean samples:



    Surely, this is not the case of half Levantine, half Sephardic, as some suggested.

    Substantial amount plots in the Levant, as opposed to the two Greek Cypriots I've plotted earlier, and also substantial plotting around Cappadocian Greek average.

    Chr6 and 3 would plot where Dodecanese Greeks usually plot, while Chr11 and 17 plot right where Romaniote Jews do.

    One chromosome shows obvious N. African shift and another one shows clear Mesopotamian.

    The two interesting ones IMO are Chr5 and 20. They do not plot with Sephardic or Italian Jews, and while on the face of it they do seem to plot around Sicilians/S. Italians, considering where the most pristine East Mediterranean populations we have - Mycenaean Greeks - used to plot, these two chromosomes might just be some pristine East Mediterranean or where Greeks used to plot before they had more Levant-like or Slavic-like admixtures.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Just looked at the Chromosome admixture chart for one of the ancient Bronze Age Anatolian samples MA2206 (1750 BC) which is Gedmatch ID Z643830. The results don't show that big of variation between chromosomes really. Very little scoring of 'European' and 'Red Sea' components with next to no presence of 'NE African'. The Central Anatolian Greek looks like a Bronze Age Anatolian (with minor steppe influence) shifted towards Armenians.

    Other Gedmatch ID's if anyone wishes to map them since it's already been done with the ancient samples from Sidon.

    Z020190 = MA2200 (1750 BC)
    Z282612=MA2208 (1750 BC)
    Z643830=MA2206 (1750 BC)
    I by mistake mapped these ones as Sidon samples. Sorry. What are they then, BA Anatolian? So close to sephardim ! Perhaps an artifact due the quality of the samples.

    Edit: they are from Anatolian BA samples from Assyrian Colony Period. The covarages are not great. http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...amgaard_SM.pdf
    Last edited by eolien; 03-13-2019 at 08:28 AM.

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  13. #5007
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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    I by mistake mapped these ones as Sidon samples. Sorry. What are they then, BA Anatolian? So close to sephardim ! Perhaps an artifact of the quality of the samples.
    Yeah, definitely BA, whether early or late, I don't remember though. That makes a whole lot more sense now that they would cluster among Sephardic/Italqim/Romaniot Jews and Cypriots (IMO). I think the overlap is partially coincidence and partially maybe hinting at the kind of origins Western Jews have outside the Levant. IE in admixture tests the BA Anatolians never score any North African or Steppe type components as opposed to Western Jews and they also show very negligible levels of Semitic DNA which Western Jews clearly have.

    The three outlier Collegno samples will probably also plot with Italqim Jews too. When I have time I might try go over this.

    Edit: I don't think it's by fluke that in this gedmatch k15 pca the Bronze Age Anatolians can be imposed over Western Jews and Cypriots. I think in a proper PCA generated by say Eurogenes with all these samples together, the BA Anatolians would probably kind of form their own cluster and likely be even nearer to Cypriots then Western Jews IMO.
    Last edited by Seabass; 03-13-2019 at 01:35 PM.

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    Tunisian Jew. There seems to be a prominent Anatolia/Caucasus shift here too.

    HuyQNg0.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Tunisian Jew. There seems to be a prominent Anatolia/Caucasus shift here too.

    HuyQNg0.jpg
    This actually reminds me of the models I've used previously to model Tunisian and Libyan Jews with Romaniotes, and the PCA where I've shown that they would be better modeled as North African shifted Romaniotes than North African shifted Levantines:



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    From Olalde et al.'s paper on the genomic history of Iberia:

    In the historical period, our transect begins with 24 individuals from the 5th century BCE to the 6th century CE from the Greek colony of Emp˙ries in the northeast (19) who fall into two main ancestry groups (Fig. 1, C and D, and fig. S8): one similar to Bronze Age individuals from the Aegean, and the other similar to Iron Age Iberians such as those from the nearby nonGreek site of Ullastret, confirming historical sources indicating that this town was inhabited by a multiethnic population (19). The impact of mobility from the central/eastern Mediterranean during the Classical period is also evident in 10 individuals from the 7th to 8th century CE site of L'Esquerda in the northeast, who show a shift from the Iron Age population in the direction of present-day Italians and Greeks (Fig.1D) that accounts for approximately one-quarter of their ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S17). The same shift is also observed in present-day Iberians outside the Basque area and is plausibly a consequence of the Roman presence in the peninsula, which had a profound cultural impact and, according to our data, a substantial genetic impact too.




    The Greeks of classical antiquity clearly were no different from the Mycenaeans. This definitely disproves the preposterous and outdated view of a mythical Dorian "invasion" which would've disposed of the previous Eastern Mediterranean inhabitants of Late Bronze Age Greece. This has many important implications for present-day Eastern Mediterraneans (Jews included, naturally), it really looks like we're headed towards a hair-splitting scenario in Southern Italy where the Greeks definitely ended up being a majority over a vast area unlike in Emp˙ries, the Greek input might be hard to distinguish from the Italic input.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 03-14-2019 at 10:27 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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