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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #5031
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    United Kingdom England Greece Cyprus
    [1] "distance%=1.6372"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek:I8215

    Peloponnese_N,75.8
    Yamnaya_Samara,16.4
    CHG,4.2
    Levant_N,3.6

    [1] "distance%=2.5573"

    Iberia_Northeast_Hel:I8208

    Peloponnese_N,73.8
    Yamnaya_Samara,10
    CHG,9
    Levant_N,4.8
    Ganj_Dareh_N,2.4
    Last edited by LTG; 03-15-2019 at 06:18 PM.

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  3. #5032
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    One of the Greek samples resembles the Mycenaeans (although still different) and the other two have way more Steppe and WHG input.

    [1] "distance%=3.1711"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek:I8214

    Peloponnese_N,49
    Yamnaya_Samara,30.6
    WHG,20.4

    [1] "distance%=4.091"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek:I8209

    Peloponnese_N,54.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,28
    WHG,17.8

    [1] "distance%=1.6372"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek:I8215

    Peloponnese_N,75.8
    Yamnaya_Samara,16.4
    CHG,4.2
    Levant_N,3.6

    Edit: I have no idea if these are native Iberians or not because I am yet to read the paper but they do look that way to me.
    Those related to Greece are only I8215 and I8208.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Those related to Greece are only I8215 and I8208.
    I have edited the above post accordingly. They both look like the Mycenaean samples but there does appear to be some interesting variation in the levels of Steppe that they display. There is also the issue of Levant_N which may or may not be legitimate; could be a representation of some farmer ancestry that is slightly more southern shifted than Peloponnese_N.
    Last edited by LTG; 03-15-2019 at 06:21 PM.

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  7. #5034
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    [1] "distance%=2.5573"

    Iberia_Northeast_Hel:I8208

    Peloponnese_N,73.8
    Yamnaya_Samara,10
    CHG,9
    Levant_N,4.8
    Ganj_Dareh_N,2.4
    Levant_N + Ganj_Dareh_N (aka Iran) ? Levant_BA like admixture detected.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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  9. #5035
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    [1] "distance%=1.6372"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek:I8215

    Peloponnese_N,75.8
    Yamnaya_Samara,16.4
    CHG,4.2
    Levant_N,3.6

    [1] "distance%=2.5573"

    Iberia_Northeast_Hel:I8208

    Peloponnese_N,73.8
    Yamnaya_Samara,10
    CHG,9
    Levant_N,4.8
    Ganj_Dareh_N,2.4
    Supplementary (p69) paper classifies them as Emp˙ries1 and calls them local Iberians:

    In PCA (Fig. 1C-D), most of the individuals from Emp˙ries form two clusters: one (which we call Emp˙ries1) plotting close to the Iron Age Iberia cluster that includes samples from the nearby site of Ullastretand the other(which we call Emp˙ries2)plotting close to Bronze Age samples from the eastern Mediterranean such as the Mycenaean samples from Greece(167). The presence of two genetically distinct populations is further supported by different patterns of FST estimated with present-day populations (Fig. S8) and by Y-chromosome haplogroup composition(Table S4). Emp˙ries2 was least differentiated from populations from the central and eastern Mediterranean region and was dominated by Y-chromosome haplogroup J, present in high frequencies precisely in those regions, whereas Emp˙ries1 was least differentiated from western European populations and contained only R1b lineages, similar to the Bronze and Iron Age populations from Iberia. We find the two clusters in the three periods of the site for which we have genetic data: the Greek, Hellenistic and Roman periods. This demonstrates that the ancient town of Emp˙ries was inhabited by local Iberians as well as by colonists from the Eastern Mediterranean, which agrees with historical sources and archaeological evidence.
    EDIT: Ah quoted; after post was edited.
    Last edited by traject; 03-15-2019 at 06:26 PM.

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  11. #5036
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Levant_N + Ganj_Dareh_N (aka Iran) ? Levant_BA like admixture detected.
    Yes, Ganj_Dareh_N is the typical Iran_N we see in the academic studies so I use it pretty much exclusively. I still need to crosscheck some things with more runs but the most logical scenario IMO is that the Levant_N was mediated via native IE Anatolian people considering the geographical origins of these samples and the fact that they lean heavily towards CHG rather than Iran_N.

  12. #5037
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    I have edited the above post accordingly. They both look like the Mycenaean samples but there does appear to be some interesting variation in the levels of Steppe that they display. There is also the issue of Levant_N which may or may not be legitimate; could be a representation of some farmer ancestry that is slightly more southern shifted than Peloponnese_N.
    EHG @ 0
    Mycenaean_I9033 @ 36.0482
    Iberia_Northeast_Greek_I8215 @ 37.0956
    Mycenaean_I9041 @ 37.1611
    Mycenaean_I9006 @ 38.1221
    Iberia_Northeast_Hel_I8208 @ 38.3372
    Mycenaean_I9010 @ 39.0069

    Levant_BA_North @ 0
    Mycenaean_I9041 @ 10.3803
    Iberia_Northeast_Hel_I8208 @ 10.4419
    Mycenaean_I9010 @ 10.5024
    Mycenaean_I9006 @ 10.7577
    Iberia_Northeast_Greek_I8215 @ 10.9492
    Mycenaean_I9033 @ 11.4462

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  14. #5038
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    I think these models make a lot of sense. The fascinating aspect for me is the 6% variation in unadulterated Steppe admixture between these two samples alone. I would be very interested in seeing what the Greek aristocracy looked like during this period.

    [1] "distance%=2.8368"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek:I8215

    Mycenaean,93.8
    Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,6.2

    [1] "distance%=3.8988"

    Iberia_Northeast_Hel:I8208

    Mycenaean,81
    Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,19

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  16. #5039
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Oh I don't doubt that, it's just that the 10-20% (and in some cases - 30%) Slavic-like admixture in mainland Greeks is far enough from the Mycenaean sample in any PCA or any Euclidean distance calculator that the end result, that is, 70-80% Mycenaean + 20-30% Slavic-like, gives an admixture which is further from Mycenaeans then say, 60% Mycenaean + pre-Greek Italic. The reason for this is that naturally, Central/Western Mediterraneans would be closer to East Mediterraneans to begin with (that is - substantial amounts of EEF, some CHG), than to Slavic-like populations.
    Considering the Colegno samples and then the results from recent paper released on the changing Admixture within Italian Peninsula regarding Rome & Latium imperial to late antiquity,I’ve been pondering something...
    I’m kinda picturing that prior to late antiquity prior to the Germanic invasions of Italy & Slavic invasions of Greece,back in the period of the 1st/2nd Century AD all of italy from Rome Downwards,South italy,Mainland Greece,Greek Islands the Aegean extending to Cyprus all plotted similar to each other the way Aegean Greeks and Southern Italians plot Similar today.
    Basically that the average Roman Citizen living in the Italian Peninsula and Greece around the 1st/2nd Century would on average plot somewhere inbetween a Southern Italian and a Cypriot,but perhaps with many more people in the Calabrian genetic range than there is today.
    That being said if we propose the ancestor population that eventually became Ashkenazim were Italian jews from Rome,and knowing what Josephus says regarding the conversion of Roman citizens to Judaism before there later subsequent abandonment of Judaism for Christianity in a way pre Ashkenazi Italian jews could almost be seen as partly a pre Christian genetic remnant of a Judaism practicing Roman era Southern European population of the 1st/2nd Century Roman period.
    Don’t get me wrong I’m not proposing that the Roman Jewish relic ancestor population was completely made up of just converts to Judaism,I’m sure a fare bit of the Levantine Admixture would be genuinely Jewish but maybe less than the 30% proposed by Eric’s theory as some would be non Jewish from converts.
    As far as I know from second hand knowledge Ashkenazim Y dna is predominantly middle eastern and MtDNA is predominantly European,and as Eric once proposed before we don’t know how many or how many times and for how many generations the scenario of a fully Levantine Jewish male and his male descendants took Southern European wives over and over again before eventually becoming fairly endogamous and marrying just within community which would lower the Levantine Admixture and increase the Southern European Admixture whilst not altering the Y and MtDNA origins frequency in the long run.
    Last edited by Claudio; 03-16-2019 at 12:38 PM.

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  18. #5040
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    I think these models make a lot of sense. The fascinating aspect for me is the 6% variation in unadulterated Steppe admixture between these two samples alone. I would be very interested in seeing what the Greek aristocracy looked like during this period.

    [1] "distance%=2.8368"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek:I8215

    Mycenaean,93.8
    Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,6.2

    [1] "distance%=3.8988"

    Iberia_Northeast_Hel:I8208

    Mycenaean,81
    Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,19
    They should analyze the Griffin Warrior skeleton! Such differences with the aristocracy having higher Steppe were probably the case when Greece was first IE-ized, but by 400 BC I'm pretty sure we'd find no differences in Steppe among Greeks.

    [1] "distance%=2.2106"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek_I8215

    Balkans_IA_I5769,49.4
    Mycenaean_I9041,23
    Mycenaean_I9006,16.4
    Mycenaean_I9033,5.6
    Anatolia_MLBA_MA2200,5
    Levant_BA_North_ERS1790733,0.6

    [1] "distance%=3.5617"

    Iberia_Northeast_Hel_I8208

    Anatolia_MLBA_MA2200,41.2
    Mycenaean_I9033,19.8
    Portugal_MBA_TV32032,13.4
    Balkans_IA_I5769,11
    Mycenaean_I9010,7.8
    Mycenaean_I9006,6.8

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