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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    As you can see the average of the 3 Christian samples plots between Cypriots and Lebanese, while the average of the 2 Muslim samples is over by the Samaritans. The Syrian Jews are also close to the Cypriots. Does this mean anything to you?
    Wow didn't notice that before. I always had the idea Israeli Christian Arabs were more or less identical to Christian-Lebanese. I think I remember some discussing there was even variation between Orthodox and Maronite Lebanese though.

    I have the k23 beta spreadsheet saved from long ago. For modern Levantine populations, the closest so far to Western Jews autosomally are the Druze, Lebanese-Druze followed by Christian-Lebanese. It's possible the Israeli-Christian Arabs may be closer then these above three but obviously not as close as Cypriots. That said, even though Samaritans are not as close as these other populations, they have also proved pretty worthwhile in attempting to model Levantine ancestry in Western Jews.

    K23b scores for some select Levantine, Aegean and Italian populations. The high 'North African' score for French & Italian Jews (on par with Sephardic Jews) and Israeli Christian Arabs is interesting.

    ID North-African
    Egyptian_Comas 16.49238095
    Libyan_Jew 15.86272727
    Christian-Arabs-Israel 10.76
    Italian_Jew 9.88
    Sephardic_Jews 9.668461538
    Palestinian 9.605849057
    French_Jew 9.16
    Jordanian 8.854
    Muslim-Arabs-Israel 8.595
    Samaritians 8.28
    Lebanese 7.890909091
    Lebanese_Christian 7.441333333
    Lebanese_Muslim 7.128444444
    Ashkenazi_Jew 6.671818182
    Syrian 6.636363636
    Lebanese_Druze 6.035111111
    Cypriot 5.778181818
    Druze 5.415079365
    Italian_South 5.35
    Cretan 4.474
    Greek-Islands 3.667142857
    Italian_Abruzzo 3.292
    European_Hunters_Gatherer
    Ashkenazi_Jew 12.51545455
    Italian_South 12.39
    Italian_Abruzzo 12.304
    Cretan 8.42
    French_Jew 7.0475
    Greek-Islands 6.494285714
    Italian_Jew 5.142857143
    Sephardic_Jews 4.982307692
    Cypriot 2.461818182
    Libyan_Jew 2.030909091
    Lebanese_Muslim 1.917777778
    Lebanese 1.909090909
    Syrian 1.821818182
    Jordanian 1.228666667
    Druze 1.188095238
    Lebanese_Druze 1.184
    Palestinian 1.047924528
    Muslim-Arabs-Israel 0.91
    Lebanese_Christian 0.782888889
    Egyptian_Comas 0.37952381
    Samaritians 0.36
    Christian-Arabs-Israel 0.13
    European_Early_Farmer
    Italian_Abruzzo 30.314
    French_Jew 24.05
    Italian_Jew 22.80142857
    Sephardic_Jews 22.67923077
    Ashkenazi_Jew 22.18454545
    Greek-Islands 22.04285714
    Italian_South 21.96
    Libyan_Jew 21.78454545
    Cretan 19.812
    Cypriot 17.94454545
    Christian-Arabs-Israel 13.67
    Lebanese_Christian 10.96955556
    Samaritians 10.5
    Lebanese_Druze 10.42888889
    Lebanese_Muslim 10.38311111
    Lebanese 9.88
    Muslim-Arabs-Israel 8.63
    Palestinian 8.582641509
    Druze 8.555238095
    Jordanian 7.959333333
    Egyptian_Comas 7.489047619
    Syrian 6.287272727

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauχum View Post
    A little off-topic but considering Southern Italy is being brought up... Does anyone here know where the Italian_South reference sample/s found in the global25 and various GEDmatch calculators are specifically from? Or are they sampled from multiple regions in the southern part of the peninsula?
    In Eurogenes it's coming from Crotone, Calabria they used 17 individual samples from the region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Erik, the guy who did the MDLP project had access to a few Israeli Arab genomes (5 in all: 3 Christians & 2 Muslims) that came from some such paper. I've seen the same five included in Chad Rohlfsen's datasets. I had a quick look at one of Chad's admixture runs and they're all pretty similar to each other, save that the Christians had more of an "Anatolian" component...

    Christians:
    Pop, PopID, Upper Nile, Mbuti, Iran_N, S African, Mota, SW Asian, WHG, Anatolian, SE Asian, W African
    Arabs-Israel-1 (GS000016206-ASM) 0.00001 0.00001 0.125776 0.00001 0.00001 0.460154 0.042545 0.349311 0.022165 0.00001
    Arabs-Israel-1 (GS000016217-ASM) 0.00001 0.00001 0.156933 0.00001 0.00001 0.452918 0.025994 0.321578 0.042527 0.00001
    Arabs-Israel-1 (GS000016885-ASM) 0.00001 0.00001 0.167128 0.00001 0.00001 0.414191 0.03252 0.341526 0.044585 0.00001

    Muslims:
    Pop, PopID, Upper Nile, Mbuti, Iran_N, S African, Mota, SW Asian, WHG, Anatolian, SE Asian, W African
    Arabs-Israel-2 GS000016212-ASM 0.00001 0.010293 0.13694 0.00001 0.00001 0.480479 0.034729 0.266323 0.033839 0.037368
    Arabs-Israel-2 GS000016213-ASM 0.00001 0.00001 0.164962 0.00001 0.00001 0.460164 0.055704 0.255369 0.042825 0.020936


    A member here named Peradam made a PCA using the MDLP K23 data (I don't know the details but here's the plot):

     


    As you can see the average of the 3 Christian samples plots between Cypriots and Lebanese, while the average of the 2 Muslim samples is over by the Samaritans. The Syrian Jews are also close to the Cypriots. Does this mean anything to you?
    Well, at page 8 or 9 of this thread, I've shown my attempt to model non-Muslim Levantines with Eurogenes BR-K7 data, using Mycenaean and Minoan samples and BA_Levant model (which is basically Levant_N and CHL_Iran), and got the following:

    [1] "distance%=0.0292 / distance=0.000292"

    Lebanese_Christian:average

    Minoan_Lasithi:I0070 31.55
    Iran_ChL:I1661 25.15
    Levant_N:I1704 24.50
    Iran_ChL:I1665 12.55
    Mycenaean:I9041 4.30
    Levant_N:I1699 1.65
    Iran_ChL:I1662 0.30

    Roughly 65% Bronze Age Levantines, 35% ancient Aegean.

    Distance of 0.0292%.

    Let's check Samaritans, with the exact same populations as Christian Lebanese:

    [1] "distance%=0.5681 / distance=0.005681"

    Samaritan:GSM537032

    Iran_ChL:I1665 34.5
    Levant_N:I1704 33.2
    Levant_N:I0867 32.4

    No Aegean admixture appeared.

    Let's check Christian Israeli Arabs:

    [1] "distance%=0.134 / distance=0.00134"

    Arab_Israel_1:average

    Levant_N:I1704 30.2
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0073 26.6
    Iran_ChL:I1665 21.8
    Iran_ChL:I1662 15.9
    Iran_ChL:I1661 5.5

    Roughly 73% Bronze Age Levantines, 26% Aegean - mostly Minoan (No Mycenaean).

    Next, let's check Druze:

    [1] "distance%=0.0289 / distance=0.000289"

    Druze:average

    Minoan_Lasithi:I0073 21.20
    Levant_N:I1704 20.35
    Iran_ChL:I1665 19.65
    Iran_ChL:I1661 14.40
    Mycenaean:I9010 9.15
    Iran_ChL:I1662 8.05
    Mycenaean:I9006 6.50
    Iran_ChL:I1674 0.70

    Very similar to Christian Lebanese - Bronze Age Levantine is 63%, Ancient Aegean is 37% (both Minoan and Mycenaean). Distance is 0.0289%.

    Now let's check Cypriots:

    [1] "distance%=0.0998 / distance=0.000998"

    Cypriot:average

    Minoan_Odigitria:I9131 24.80
    Mycenaean:I9041 21.40
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0073 17.10
    Iran_ChL:I1661 12.00
    Iran_ChL:I1662 8.65
    Iran_ChL:I1665 7.25
    Levant_N:I1704 6.70
    Iran_ChL:I1674 2.10

    Mirror image of Druze . 63% Aegean, 37% Levantines. Not surprising at all.
    This was something I've predicted to happen, since it cannot be the Hellenistic admixture would only be limited to Western Jews (however, it should be elevated among Western Jews, as they merged and absorbed Hellenistic converts), and there should also be some amount of Greek/Aegean admixture among Christian Lebanese, Druze and Palestinian Christians.

    However, when I tested modern kits (you can see the results in this post , I've seen this is not conclusive. One Lebanese Christian did get clustering with Cypriots and N. Mesopotamian (probably thanks to some admixture with Christian Assyrians, since both communities had connections and spoke Aramaic until fairly recently), and the Druze also got close results with Cypriots, but the Christian Palestinian (Israeli Arabs) did not - it clustered really close to Samaritans.

    The Muslim Palestinians were probably sampled from the Nebulous area - many Palestinian families there are of known Samaritan origins.

    I need more Christian Lebanese and Christian Palestinian samples to see if perhaps that Christian Palestinian I did test was an outlier, or somehow a Christian which descend from Samaritans.

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  7. #504
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    Just two additional random kits I've found, of two Lebanese (I'm not sure if they are Druze or Christian, but by their names and their oracles, they are not Muslims). These two seem to cluster closer with Cypriots than with Levantines, but look how they are still far from the rest of the Greeks (much further than Syrian Jews). This corresponds with their admixture with Greeks being a minority, rather than the case of Syrian Jews and Cypriots, which have a majority Greek component and a minority Levantine:

    First, their PCA:

     


    Kit M544732

     


    Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

    Kit M544732

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 50.68
    2 West_Asian 16.48
    3 West_Med 11.78
    4 Red_Sea 10.42
    5 Atlantic 3.82
    6 Baltic 3.77
    7 Southeast_Asian 0.99
    8 Northeast_African 0.99
    9 North_Sea 0.6
    10 Oceanian 0.28
    11 Siberian 0.21

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Lebanese_Christian 5.42
    2 Lebanese_Druze 5.81
    3 Samaritan 6.34
    4 Palestinian 9.86
    5 Cyprian 10.85
    6 Lebanese_Muslim 11.25
    7 Jordanian 12.23
    8 Syrian 12.53
    9 Kurdish_Jewish 13.09
    10 Iranian_Jewish 13.95
    11 Tunisian_Jewish 14.69
    12 Libyan_Jewish 15.49
    13 Assyrian 16.61
    14 Bedouin 17.02
    15 Sephardic_Jewish 17.88
    16 Algerian_Jewish 18.2
    17 Italian_Jewish 18.74
    18 Georgian_Jewish 20.96
    19 Egyptian 20.97
    20 Yemenite_Jewish 21.19

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 54.5% Lebanese_Druze + 45.5% Samaritan @ 4.35
    2 56.6% Lebanese_Christian + 43.4% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.83
    3 94.5% Lebanese_Druze + 5.5% Sardinian @ 5.08
    4 94% Lebanese_Christian + 6% Yemenite_Jewish @ 5.26
    5 93.5% Lebanese_Druze + 6.5% Moroccan @ 5.28
    6 92.8% Lebanese_Druze + 7.2% Tunisian @ 5.31
    7 93.9% Lebanese_Druze + 6.1% Mozabite_Berber @ 5.33
    8 80.8% Lebanese_Druze + 19.2% Cyprian @ 5.35
    9 86% Lebanese_Druze + 14% Tunisian_Jewish @ 5.36
    10 82.7% Lebanese_Christian + 17.3% Samaritan @ 5.38
    11 93.6% Lebanese_Druze + 6.4% Algerian @ 5.38
    12 96.5% Lebanese_Christian + 3.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.39
    13 89% Lebanese_Druze + 11% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.39
    14 95.9% Lebanese_Christian + 4.1% Tunisian_Jewish @ 5.39
    15 94.4% Lebanese_Christian + 5.6% Palestinian @ 5.4
    16 98.2% Lebanese_Christian + 1.8% Egyptian @ 5.41
    17 99.7% Lebanese_Christian + 0.3% Dai @ 5.41
    18 99.7% Lebanese_Christian + 0.3% She @ 5.41
    19 99.7% Lebanese_Christian + 0.3% Miaozu @ 5.41
    20 99.7% Lebanese_Christian + 0.3% Tujia @ 5.41






    Kit M047714

     


    Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:
    Kit M047714

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 47.14
    2 West_Asian 21.62
    3 Red_Sea 11.7
    4 West_Med 11.49
    5 Atlantic 4.23
    6 Eastern_Euro 1.37
    7 North_Sea 0.87
    8 Northeast_African 0.78
    9 Southeast_Asian 0.51
    10 Baltic 0.23
    11 Siberian 0.04

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Lebanese_Christian 2.31
    2 Samaritan 5.49
    3 Lebanese_Druze 5.94
    4 Lebanese_Muslim 7.43
    5 Kurdish_Jewish 8.31
    6 Cyprian 8.85
    7 Syrian 9.26
    8 Palestinian 9.7
    9 Iranian_Jewish 10.04
    10 Jordanian 11.13
    11 Assyrian 12.01
    12 Tunisian_Jewish 14.28
    13 Libyan_Jewish 15.53
    14 Georgian_Jewish 15.95
    15 Bedouin 16.06
    16 Sephardic_Jewish 16.84
    17 Algerian_Jewish 18.11
    18 Italian_Jewish 18.18
    19 Armenian 18.59
    20 Turkish 19.48

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 97.2% Lebanese_Christian + 2.8% Abhkasian @ 1.98
    2 93.1% Lebanese_Christian + 6.9% Georgian_Jewish @ 1.98
    3 97% Lebanese_Christian + 3% Georgian @ 2
    4 94.3% Lebanese_Christian + 5.7% Armenian @ 2.02
    5 97.5% Lebanese_Christian + 2.5% Ossetian @ 2.04
    6 97.4% Lebanese_Christian + 2.6% Adygei @ 2.05
    7 91.9% Lebanese_Christian + 8.1% Assyrian @ 2.06
    8 97.6% Lebanese_Christian + 2.4% North_Ossetian @ 2.07
    9 97.6% Lebanese_Christian + 2.4% Balkar @ 2.07
    10 97.6% Lebanese_Christian + 2.4% Kabardin @ 2.08
    11 95.2% Lebanese_Christian + 4.8% Turkish @ 2.09
    12 97.8% Lebanese_Christian + 2.2% Chechen @ 2.1
    13 95.7% Lebanese_Christian + 4.3% Kurdish @ 2.1
    14 97.7% Lebanese_Christian + 2.3% Lezgin @ 2.11
    15 89.6% Lebanese_Christian + 10.4% Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.11
    16 95.9% Lebanese_Christian + 4.1% Azeri @ 2.12
    17 97.5% Lebanese_Christian + 2.5% Kumyk @ 2.12
    18 98% Lebanese_Christian + 2% Tabassaran @ 2.15
    19 90.5% Lebanese_Christian + 9.5% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.19
    20 96.9% Lebanese_Christian + 3.1% Iranian @ 2.19







    Please compare their two K36 similarity maps to the Samaritan one:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post414800

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Well, at page 8 or 9 of this thread, I've shown my attempt to model non-Muslim Levantines with Eurogenes BR-K7 data, using Mycenaean and Minoan samples and BA_Levant model (which is basically Levant_N and CHL_Iran), and got the following:



    This was something I've predicted to happen, since it cannot be the Hellenistic admixture would only be limited to Western Jews (however, it should be elevated among Western Jews, as they merged and absorbed Hellenistic converts), and there should also be some amount of Greek/Aegean admixture among Christian Lebanese, Druze and Palestinian Christians.

    However, when I tested modern kits (you can see the results in this post , I've seen this is not conclusive. One Lebanese Christian did get clustering with Cypriots and N. Mesopotamian (probably thanks to some admixture with Christian Assyrians, since both communities had connections and spoke Aramaic until fairly recently), and the Druze also got close results with Cypriots, but the Christian Palestinian (Israeli Arabs) did not - it clustered really close to Samaritans.

    The Muslim Palestinians were probably sampled from the Nebulous area - many Palestinian families there are of known Samaritan origins.

    I need more Christian Lebanese and Christian Palestinian samples to see if perhaps that Christian Palestinian I did test was an outlier, or somehow a Christian which descend from Samaritans.
    Would the clustering of Western Jews with Aegean populations not also be caused by many of them having to abandon Judaism after 66CE and the general unrest in the Roman Empire at that time? Do you think that the gene flow was a two way process over a long period of time, reinforcing a more ancient common gene pool?

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  11. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Would the clustering of Western Jews with Aegean populations not also be caused by many of them having to abandon Judaism after 66CE and the general unrest in the Roman Empire at that time? Do you think that the gene flow was a two way process over a long period of time, reinforcing a more ancient common gene pool?
    My theory is that the process of Aegean gene flow into the Levant started mostly during the Hellenistic period, in the Seleucid Empire, around the 3rd century BC, but might have already started locally among Judeans as a result of Philistine assimilation, if indeed the majority of them were of Aegean origins. But most definitely, this happened mostly during and after Hellenistic period.

    Levantine admixture among some Aegeans have began since Phoenician times, which had colonies in Cyprus, Crete and the Decadence Islands. It was also re-enforced probably during Byzantine times when the Levant was rift apart in centuries of Byzantine-Persian wars, and probably many Christian Levantines have fled to nearby safe, Christian-ruled, Aegean Islands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Some Levantines and Jews on Eurogenes K36 and MDLP K23.

    Tunisian Jew:
     




     




    Palestinian Christian:
     



     




    Syrian:
     



     




    Lebanese Christian:
     



     




    Cypriot:
     



     





    Cypriot:
     



     


    See how Cypriots get so close results again and again with Syrian Jews.

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    Not sure how much this helps but here are some other Greek and Italian similarity maps from different places. I did not put any more Sicilians but I am putting Apulia versus Calabria vs Campania for comparison. It is interesting because the Calabrese are close to Dodecanese/Crete and have high Levantine affinity, but distant from the mainland, while the Apulians score high similarity with all parts of Greece, both mainland and islands but the Levantine affinity drops off. The Levantine affinity is back with Campania, but not quite as high as Calabria.

    Cosenza (Calabria):
     


    Reggio Calabria:
     


    Reggio Calabria:
     


    Catanzaro (Calabria):
     


    Catanzaro (Calabria):
     


    Catanzaro (Calabria):
     


    Apulia:
     


    Apulia:
     


    Apulia:
     


    Naples (Campania):
     


    Salerno (Campania):
     


    Salerno (Campania):
     


    Avellino (Campania):
     

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    Now here are the mainland Greeks. Some of the mainlanders are closer, even, to southern Poles, Belarusians, and Germans than to Levantines. Clearly, they are not an Aegean population and could not have been a recent source of admixture into either Italians nor Jews, and the Slavic admixture seems concentrated most highly around Thessaloniki.

    Thessaloniki:
     


    Thessaloniki:
     


    Epirus:
     


    Macedonia:
     


    Macedonia:
     


    Macedonia:
     


    Macedonia:
     


    Western Greece:
     


    Thessaly:
     


    Peloponnese:
     


    Peloponnese:
     


    Mani:
     


    Mani:
     

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    [QUOTE=Erikl86;417485]Well, at page 8 or 9 of this thread, I've shown my attempt to model non-Muslim Levantines with Eurogenes BR-K7 data, using Mycenaean and Minoan samples and BA_Levant model (which is basically Levant_N and CHL_Iran), and got the following:



    This was something I've predicted to happen, since it cannot be the Hellenistic admixture would only be limited to Western Jews (however, it should be elevated among Western Jews, as they merged and absorbed Hellenistic converts), and there should also be some amount of Greek/Aegean admixture among Christian Lebanese, Druze and Palestinian Christians.

    However, when I tested modern kits (you can see the results in this post , I've seen this is not conclusive. One Lebanese Christian did get clustering with Cypriots and N. Mesopotamian (probably thanks to some admixture with Christian Assyrians, since both communities had connections and spoke Aramaic until fairly recently), and the Druze also got close results with Cypriots, but the Christian Palestinian (Israeli Arabs) did not - it clustered really close to Samaritans.

    The Muslim Palestinians were probably sampled from the Nebulous area - many Palestinian families there are of known Samaritan origins.

    I need more Christian Lebanese and Christian Palestinian samples to see if perhaps that Christian Palestinian I did test was an outlier, or somehow a Christian which descend from Samaritans

    There is a web page investigating Southern euro Admixture in Palestinian Christians
    Attachment 24064
    Attachment 24065
    Anyhow what’s interesting is I know two Palestinian Christians who both score around 20% euro south on AncestryDNA but one has absolutely no South euro dna relatives but the other individual has many Greek and Italian American and even Spanish dna relatives yet both score 20% South euro.
    I have seen the exact same scenario with Lebanese AncestryDNA customers.

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