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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #511
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    [QUOTE=Claudio;417659]
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Well, at page 8 or 9 of this thread, I've shown my attempt to model non-Muslim Levantines with Eurogenes BR-K7 data, using Mycenaean and Minoan samples and BA_Levant model (which is basically Levant_N and CHL_Iran), and got the following:



    This was something I've predicted to happen, since it cannot be the Hellenistic admixture would only be limited to Western Jews (however, it should be elevated among Western Jews, as they merged and absorbed Hellenistic converts), and there should also be some amount of Greek/Aegean admixture among Christian Lebanese, Druze and Palestinian Christians.

    However, when I tested modern kits (you can see the results in this post , I've seen this is not conclusive. One Lebanese Christian did get clustering with Cypriots and N. Mesopotamian (probably thanks to some admixture with Christian Assyrians, since both communities had connections and spoke Aramaic until fairly recently), and the Druze also got close results with Cypriots, but the Christian Palestinian (Israeli Arabs) did not - it clustered really close to Samaritans.

    The Muslim Palestinians were probably sampled from the Nebulous area - many Palestinian families there are of known Samaritan origins.

    I need more Christian Lebanese and Christian Palestinian samples to see if perhaps that Christian Palestinian I did test was an outlier, or somehow a Christian which descend from Samaritans

    There is a web page investigating Southern euro Admixture in Palestinian Christians
    Attachment 24064
    Attachment 24065
    Anyhow what’s interesting is I know two Palestinian Christians who both score around 20% euro south on AncestryDNA but one has absolutely no South euro dna relatives but the other individual has many Greek and Italian American and even Spanish dna relatives yet both score 20% South euro.
    I have seen the exact same scenario with Lebanese AncestryDNA customers.
    This is indeed super interesting - it seems though that this admixture is not as uniformly distributed as in the case of Western Jews. But 14-28% is what I've found in both Eurogenes K7-BR and Global25, and with what I've seen in some Christian Levantines.

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    [QUOTE=Erikl86;417670]
    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post

    This is indeed super interesting - it seems though that this admixture is not as uniformly distributed as in the case of Western Jews. But 14-28% is what I've found in both Eurogenes K7-BR and Global25, and with what I've seen in some Christian Levantines.
    Southern European admixture can be native coming from Anatolian Farmers and ENF. This is rather some shared heritage from the Neolithic-BA.

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  4. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    My theory is that the process of Aegean gene flow into the Levant started mostly during the Hellenistic period, in the Seleucid Empire, around the 3rd century BC, but might have already started locally among Judeans as a result of Philistine assimilation, if indeed the majority of them were of Aegean origins. But most definitely, this happened mostly during and after Hellenistic period.

    Levantine admixture among some Aegeans have began since Phoenician times, which had colonies in Cyprus, Crete and the Decadence Islands. It was also re-enforced probably during Byzantine times when the Levant was rift apart in centuries of Byzantine-Persian wars, and probably many Christian Levantines have fled to nearby safe, Christian-ruled, Aegean Islands.

    I consider the historical record to support your position. Cyprus, for example, is known to have had large communities of Maronite Uniates and non-Chalcedonian Christians during the medieval period. Some sources indicate that there may have been as many as 60 scattered Maronite villages but only four surivived into the 19th and 20thc. Most of the non-Chalcedonians were perhaps settled in the more urban areas such as Nicosia. We know that many Christian refugees arrived in Cyprus as Islam took over the Middle East- many are known to have arrived after the fall of Acre. These Christian refugees would also have included Syriac (or even Greek-speaking) Melkite (Orthodox) communities. They would easily have been absorbed by the local Orthodox Christian population. The Maronites were persecuted under the Ottomans (being Catholic they were associated with the previous ruling Frankish/Venetian order). Presumably many converted either to Orthodoxy or to Islam.

    Btw, in one of these Maronite villages (Kormakiti, now under Turkish occupation) a local dialect of Arabic has survived to the present.

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    The Eurogenes K36 has a specifically a 'Italian' and 'East Balkan' component. The 'Italian' one probably peaks more centre-north and the 'East-Balkan' component to a degree definitely seperates even Greek Islanders from Italians but peaks stronger mainland. It's still pretty high amongst some Islanders though. The one thing I can't help but notice is how weakly Sephardic Jews (even Ashkenazim too) score for both, Cypriots even score more. I know this test has been widely criticized but what do you make of this? Surely If say Western Jews say owed 40-50% of their DNA to Italians their 'Italian' score would be higher as some other then Erick have particularly argued. By the way don't read too much into the scores of ancients I included.

    East_Balkan
    GR_Central 10.48
    GR_Istanbul 7.87
    Gr_Eubea 7.555
    Gr_Andros 7.418
    GR_Thrace 7.01
    Mycenaean M209270 6.86
    GR_Kythera 6.61
    GR_Rhodes 6.52
    GR_Crete 6.396
    GR_Ikaria 6.353
    Gr_Chios 6.307
    IT_Friuli 6.217
    Mycenaean M665102 6.17
    IT_Marche 5.88
    IT_Apulia 5.786666667
    Gr_Kalymnos 5.49
    IT_Calabria 5.468
    IT_Veneto 5.36
    Mycenaean M866617 5.29
    GR_Dodecanes 5.282
    IT_Campania 5.11
    Sicily_Catania 4.789
    Sicily_Ragusa 4.735
    IT_Abruzzo 4.673333333
    IT_Piedmont 4.616666667
    GR_Cyclades 4.563
    Sicily_Messina 4.504
    IT_North 4.425384615
    Sicily_Agrigento 4.282
    IT_Lazio 4.28
    Sicily_Caltanisetta 4.077
    Sicily_Trapani 3.997
    Askhenazi 3.934848485
    Cyprus 3.589285714
    IT_Aosta 3.582
    IT_Tuscany 3.502
    Sicily_Palermo 3.494
    Italian_Jew T462769 3.14
    Sephardi_Jews 2.783076923
    GR_Pontic 2.394545455
    Mycenaean M472594 1.74
    IT_Sardinia 0.648333333
    Samaritan 0.018
    Crete Armenoi 0
    Ancient Canaanite 1600 BC 0.02
    Jordan EBA [2198-1966 BC] 0
    Ancient Egyptian 769-560 BC 0
    Ancient Egyptian 776-569 BC 0
    Roman Gladiator Z852717 0
    Ancient Egyptian 92 BC - 2 BC 0
    Anatolian Bronze Age 0
    Minoan M796833 0
    Minoan M715422 0
    Remedello Italy (2908-2578 BC) 0
    Italian
    Minoan M715422 44.98
    Mycenaean M866617 41.19
    Minoan M796833 40.97
    Mycenaean M209270 36.39
    Mycenaean M472594 36.14
    Anatolian Bronze Age 31.12
    Mycenaean M665102 30.98
    Remedello Italy (2908-2578 BC) 28.18
    IT_Tuscany 26.351
    IT_Lazio 24.81
    IT_North 24.70307692
    IT_Abruzzo 24.12666667
    IT_Campania 23.023
    IT_Sardinia 23.00666667
    IT_Marche 22.9425
    IT_Apulia 22.225
    IT_Aosta 21.646
    GR_Kythera 21.605
    GR_Cyclades 21.507
    IT_Calabria 21.485
    Sicily_Ragusa 21.46
    Sicily_Trapani 21.365
    Gr_Kalymnos 21.358
    Sicily_Catania 21.195
    IT_Piedmont 20.76
    Gr_Andros 20.455
    IT_Veneto 20.455
    Gr_Eubea 20.33
    Sicily_Agrigento 20.292
    Sicily_Palermo 20.273
    GR_Istanbul 20.14
    GR_Crete 20.13
    IT_Friuli 19.835
    Sicily_Messina 19.681
    Italian_Jew T462769 19.62
    GR_Ikaria 19.19
    Gr_Chios 19.175
    Sicily_Caltanisetta 19.05
    GR_Dodecanes 18.898
    GR_Rhodes 17.63
    GR_Thrace 16.68
    Askhenazi 16.34636364
    Cyprus 16.19785714
    GR_Central 14.925
    Sephardi_Jews 13.86230769
    GR_Pontic 12.98636364
    Ancient Canaanite 1600 BC 9.73
    Samaritan 8.528
    Jordan EBA [2198-1966 BC] 7.69
    Crete Armenoi 7.85
    Ancient Egyptian 769-560 BC 7.31
    Ancient Egyptian 92 BC - 2 BC 6.81
    Roman Gladiator Z852717 3.43
    Ancient Egyptian 776-569 BC 0
    I'll have to see how Palestinian and Lebanese Christians scored.

    EDIT: Just included one Italian Jew per the kit Erik shared below. Does score low 'Italian' relative to other Italians in line with Sicilians but still significantly more then Sephardic Jews.
    Last edited by Seabass; 06-17-2018 at 03:09 PM.

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    Italian Jews being genetically very close to a significant portion of the non-Jewish southern Italian population would make me think that one of two things must be true:

    1. They are native southern Italians who converted and have all of the admixtures that come with it, but most likely isolated from more recent input such as Norman or Lombard,

    2. They are a mixture of Levantine newcomers to southern Italy who admixed with the Greek-speaking population, and then did acquire admixture that arrived in southern Italy from the north, though less than what non-Jews in their regions received.

    Because they are basically proto-Ashkenazim, I would go with the first choice.
    Last edited by Táltos; 06-17-2018 at 04:13 PM. Reason: quotes removed for name

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    What I find interesting this individual has no any close Italian matches in Gedmatch. So far only Jewish matches in "One to Many" relative finder.
    Last edited by Táltos; 06-17-2018 at 04:14 PM. Reason: quotes removed for gedmatch number and name

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Italian Jews being genetically very close to a significant portion of the non-Jewish southern Italian population would make me think that one of two things must be true:
    Actually, they are almost as equally close to native Greek Islanders. You need to explain now how come they are so close to Greek Islanders and Cypriots.

    1. They are native southern Italians who converted and have all of the admixtures that come with it, but most likely isolated from more recent input such as Norman or Lombard,

    2. They are a mixture of Levantine newcomers to southern Italy who admixed with the Greek-speaking population, and then did acquire admixture that arrived in southern Italy from the north, though less than what non-Jews in their regions received.

    Because they are basically proto-Ashkenazim, I would go with the first choice.
    Actually, the fact that they have the same affinity with Cretans and Dodecanese Greeks as they do with Sicilians, surpassing East S. Sicilians and North South Sicilians, while also so close to Cypriots and quite far from Tuscans (they are closer to southern mainland Greeks than to Tuscans), for me completely negates option no. 1. It's quite obvious from his similarity map, as well as oracle with Cypriots and Cretans, that his similarity to Southern Greeks (and Southern Greeks alone), is the result of Southern Greeks and Sicilians similarity to Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Actually, they are almost as equally close to native Greek Islanders. You need to explain now how come they are so close to Greek Islanders and Cypriots.
    All of these populations (Sicilians, Italkim, Calabrese, Cretans, Dodecanese) are close to one another, and distinct both from Italians north of Campania, and from all mainland Greeks.

    Actually, the fact that they have the same affinity with Cretans and Dodecanese Greeks as they do with Sicilians, surpassing East S. Sicilians and North South Sicilians, while also so close to Cypriots and quite far from Tuscans (they are closer to southern mainland Greeks than to Tuscans), for me completely negates option no. 1.
    I don't see how. If you have determined, as I suspect you have, that the indigenous ancient peoples of Sicily for instance contribute little to our DNA and that there was mass population replacement first from the Aegean and then secondarily from various parts of the Middle East and North Africa, it would be perfectly possible for Italkim to be just as close to Cretans/Dodecanese and still have significant convert ancestry from southern Italians, because based on this hypothesis outside of minor admixture events, Cretans/Dodecanese and Sicilians/Calabrese are essentially one population.

    Similarly I have meant to ask: when are we supposed to date/attribute Aegean/Greek admixture in western Sicily to, when ancient Greek settlements were few there? Should we assume it to be prehistoric, or would it be from the Byzantine era?
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 06-17-2018 at 03:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Italian Jews being genetically very close to a significant portion of the non-Jewish southern Italian population would make me think that one of two things must be true:

    1. They are native southern Italians who converted and have all of the admixtures that come with it, but most likely isolated from more recent input such as Norman or Lombard,

    2. They are a mixture of Levantine newcomers to southern Italy who admixed with the Greek-speaking population, and then did acquire admixture that arrived in southern Italy from the north, though less than what non-Jews in their regions received.

    Because they are basically proto-Ashkenazim, I would go with the first choice.
    Not sure I understand this line of reasoning. Ashkenazim and most other Western Jews show very distinct genetic history from native Sicilians. Living DNA results clearly reinforce this. Why would Italian Jews being proto-Ashkenazim support the theory that they're native southern Italians?

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....for-Living-DNA
    Last edited by jonahst; 06-17-2018 at 04:48 PM.

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