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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFSTFD View Post
    Northwest Africans have a good amount (~20%?) of Iberomaurusian-related ancestry as well, which the Egyptians mostly lack.

    Same as before: https://imgur.com/a/g7vAij6

    No Iraq samples. The Syrian sample is very varied as Mike pointed out before.

    You can see the Slavic affinity for Greece coming through in that they are as close to Poles and Ukrainians as they are to Assyrians, and that they are closer to Bulgarians than to Sicilians/Cretans.

    Put alternatively, mainland Greeks are actually no closer to Levantines than are Tuscans if you look at the distances. So this really puts into context how unless we want to call Tuscans genetically "East Mediterranean" we should not be calling mainland Greeks this.

    Sicilians, Western Jews, Cretans, and South Italians are all very close as expected. It is actually, likely due to decreased North African affinity, the "South Italian" sample that is very close to Cretans here (it is the first group on their list). West Sicily must be shifted toward both North Africa and Western Europe slightly hence slightly greater distances between Cretans and West Sicilians.

    As to be expected all Lebanese groups are very close to one another and to Samaritans.

    What is interesting is the Palestinian cluster here, which is closer to BedouinA than to anyone else, even other Levantines... yet BedouinB is further down the list. I suspect it's a nationwide average and if we divided it up, we'd see Palestinian Christians and to some extent West Bank Palestinians being closer to the Lebanese. If Gazans are included in there, this may explain some of the shift toward Bedouins and Egyptians.

    But I wonder if BedouinA is a heavily Levantine-admixed group of Bedouins if not a direct mixture of the two regions.

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    I believe that BedouinA is mixed Levantine/Arabian while BedouinB is pure Arabian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    I believe that BedouinA is mixed Levantine/Arabian while BedouinB is pure Arabian.
    That would make sense then that the Palestinian sample used is a mixture of Levantine natives and Arabian settlers.

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    I am now also seeing how Global 25 models Iberians better than does GEDmatch, as you can much more easily see how Iberians share DNA with North Africans in those oracles. Especially Portugal, Canary Islands, Galicia, Extremadura and Andalusia (in Spain).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    That would make sense then that the Palestinian sample used is a mixture of Levantine natives and Arabian settlers.
    I think Egyptian admixture might play some role in Palestinian Muslim ancestry as well. At least with G25, Egyptian samples (ancient, Hellenistic, and modern) act as better fits than Bedouins. Or at least until you add independent East African admixture, so I guess it partly depends on whether the East African is direct or indirect (via Egyptian). I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to have a strong opinion though either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFSTFD View Post
    Sure, your reminder is welcome but I don't think anyone thought otherwise or indirectly tried to downplay or deny the potential impact of Italic populations (again, potential similarities have been a constant caveat throughout the thread and, outside the thread's topic, the Central/East Med-like impact in Iberia is obviously Roman-related rather than Greek) though it'd be better if we had the rest of the non-Greek samples in Global25. Similarly, as you say it's very possible that the potential closeness in ancestry comes from similar, deeper ancestry emanating from the Aegean-Anatolian area rather than Bronze/Iron Age Greeks acting as an influence that slowly permeated the rest of Italy. We'll see with more samples, though the current ones from the Western Med study did give me an impression of a potential impact in at least southern Italy at least after them. But again, they're kinda limited and I'd like to see them in Global25 as well.

    As for your last point about the "split", I think I might be missing part of the point (unless again you're simply saying that Empuries2 in the paper also includes Roman individuals in which case ignore the rest) but, from an autosomal perspective, I'm not sure why we'd think so. Are you expecting the individuals specifically assigned to the Empuries2 cluster, whether Greek or Roman, to show big differences in their make-up that would change how well they work in their models or what? The authors didn't think so, though unfortunately the Empuries2 Roman samples aren't in Global25, only an Iberian-like one. I'd have to recheck more carefully but maybe some of the individuals considered as mixed between Iberian and Empuries2 will end up being Republican Roman/Italic or something. Though even those seem to be a bit too 'western' on the PCA to provide a good fit as well but who knows.

    Your mention of the chronology with Pla de L'Horta being earlier than L'Esquerda was part of my thinking, i.e. maybe modern Greeks and Italians are acting as proxies for a two-way mix between something more steppe-heavy/Visigoth-like (seemingly a mixed Germanic-Balkan plus potentially some other later steppe stuff population with varying Iberian contribution, with some of its more prominent outliers being similar to some DEU_Medieval_ACD samples) and something more EEF/Empuries2-like. Maybe a more individualized approach in their tests within the Iberian IA populations (say, the more genetically 'eastern' individuals ended up being a bigger part of the population so the average shifted or something) could have yielded better results with more EEF populations on the East/Central Med end too.
    i wasnt referring to anything specific about the samples or their legacy, my point was that samples from the historic period implies they can now be placed within their known historic context whether that concerns collegno or empuries or sardinia or the example in olalde et al about the pull of all iberia then there is just no-way(literally) that the greeks from empuries could have sufficed that; the contexts sofar are very ambiguous for isolateing romans from greeks but what if I8216 is actually a roman and I8215 a greek basically its just splitting hairs between romans and greeks, but you said it best about more samples now i dont think there will be any great differences but i do think the romans(at least one of their two clusters) to be more iranian and a levantine(which the mycenaeans at least lacked/?not sure about the classical greeks emp2);

    edit: as for the modelling, i see that the same if they would have used a third source as you mentioned they might have had a better fit for empuries2; but i dont get the whole presentation it seems to me they tried to illustrate a chronology as post-roman samples cant get modelled one-way anymore but with recent samples ending up the substrate of older samples, as i said i dont get that part;
    Last edited by alexfritz; 04-28-2019 at 05:19 AM.
    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    I think Egyptian admixture might play some role in Palestinian Muslim ancestry as well. At least with G25, Egyptian samples (ancient, Hellenistic, and modern) act as better fits than Bedouins. Or at least until you add independent East African admixture, so I guess it partly depends on whether the East African is direct or indirect (via Egyptian). I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to have a strong opinion though either way.
    East African input in Palestinians was likely acquired via Egypt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    I was always under the impression that "Roman era" extended through the 6th century (and I guess for Romaniote much later).

    Anyway, I agree with a lot of what both Claudio and Erik wrote, but I'm not sure about the 35% figure. The best fits I've gotten are closer to 40%, which makes sense given that 35% was the estimate for Bronze Age samples. I usually use Pen = 0, but here I used to 0.001 because 0 inflated the Polish. Also filtered out extreme outliers.

    Ashkenazi_Jew:Average
    fit: 0.7963

    Levant_LBN_Roman: 40.83
    ITA_Collegno_Med: 30.83
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2: 9.17
    Anatolia_IA: 7.5
    Mozabite: 5
    Polish: 4.17
    DEU_Medieval: 2.5

    Also, one thing I was recently made aware of was the entry on history of Jews in Germany in the Jewish Virtual Library. It doesn't cite sources, but claims that before Christianity, many Germans converted to Judaism.

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...h-history-tour

    Personally I think that Ashkenazi Jews are a hybrid of many different Jewish groups that merged before the bottleneck, and each group was likely admixed with neighbors to some extent before the merge. So these would include German Jews with pre-Christian Germanic admixture, Italian Jews with Northern Italian admixture, Romaniote/Sicialian Jews with Greco-Roman admixture, Spanish Jews with French/Iberian admixture, North African Jews with Berber admixture, and perhaps pre-Ashkenazi Eastern European Jews with some Slavic admixture.

    Some other Western Jews but without the Polish. All with 0.001.


    Italian_Jew:Average
    fit: 1.0335

    Levant_LBN_Roman: 40.83
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2: 26.67
    ITA_Collegno_Med: 18.33
    Mozabite: 7.5
    Anatolia_IA: 3.33
    DEU_Medieval: 3.33


    Sephardic_Jew:Average
    fit: 1.1402

    Levant_LBN_Roman: 42.5
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2: 22.5
    ITA_Collegno_Med: 20.83
    Mozabite: 8.33
    Anatolia_IA: 3.33
    DEU_Medieval: 2.5


    Romaniote_Jew:Average
    fit: 0.8233

    Levant_LBN_Roman: 52.5
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2: 19.17
    ITA_Collegno_Med: 18.33
    Mozabite: 5.83
    Anatolia_IA: 2.5
    DEU_Medieval: 1.67
    Nice runs ! however, the models seem problematic in my opinion. First - which datasheet did you use? scaled or non-scaled?

    Second, Romaniote and Sephardic having medieval German sounds quite unlikely, especially anything noticable.

    Also, is ITA_Collegno_Med the average of all northern Collegno samples, or just one sample (CL23 or CL36)? Don't use the average of all samples, it'll completely screw up the models despite seem closer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Nice runs ! however, the models seem problematic in my opinion. First - which datasheet did you use? scaled or non-scaled?

    Second, Romaniote and Sephardic having medieval German sounds quite unlikely, especially anything noticable.

    Also, is ITA_Collegno_Med the average of all northern Collegno samples, or just one sample (CL23 or CL36)? Don't use the average of all samples, it'll completely screw up the models despite seem closer.
    Just the online nMonte Runner, so I think scaled. I did use the Collegno average though. Changing it to one of the specific samples (CL23 and CL36) doesn't impact the Levantine score though, just the other Europe scores, namely giving much higher German.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Just the online nMonte Runner, so I think scaled. I did use the Collegno average though. Changing it to one of the specific samples (CL23 and CL36) doesn't impact the Levantine score though, just the other Europe scores, namely giving much higher German.

    I think this run that you've sent me via PM:

    Pen = 0.001


    Ashkenazi_Jew:Average
    fit: 0.9162


    Levant_LBN_Roman: 40.83
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2: 16.67
    DEU_Medieval: 15
    ITA_Collegno_Med--CL23: 14.17
    Anatolia_IA: 5.83
    Mozabite: 5
    CZE_Early_Slav: 2.5

    Is the best one I've seen yet, though I must admit I've ran the same populations few pages ago (scaled), and it gave me these results (namely, more N. Italian, less North European):

    [1] "distance%=1.0537"


    Ashkenazi_Jew


    Levant_LBN_Roman,34.4
    ITA_Collegno_Med_CL23,23.6
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,16.8
    Anatolia_IA,10.4
    DEU_Medieval,5.2
    CZE_Early_Slav,4.8
    Mozabite,4.8
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