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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #5281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I think this run that you've sent me via PM:

    Pen = 0.001


    Ashkenazi_Jew:Average
    fit: 0.9162


    Levant_LBN_Roman: 40.83
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2: 16.67
    DEU_Medieval: 15
    ITA_Collegno_Med--CL23: 14.17
    Anatolia_IA: 5.83
    Mozabite: 5
    CZE_Early_Slav: 2.5

    Is the best one I've seen yet, though I must admit I've ran the same populations few pages ago (scaled), and it gave me these results (namely, more N. Italian, less North European):

    [1] "distance%=1.0537"


    Ashkenazi_Jew


    Levant_LBN_Roman,34.4
    ITA_Collegno_Med_CL23,23.6
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,16.8
    Anatolia_IA,10.4
    DEU_Medieval,5.2
    CZE_Early_Slav,4.8
    Mozabite,4.8
    The only real difference I can think of is that I filtered out outliers that deviate 25% or more.
    Last edited by jonahst; 04-28-2019 at 08:44 AM.

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  3. #5282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Now check this out.
    The Merovingian era Jews of Gallo Roman Merovingian France,who spoke Judeo-Romance language are documented in articles below if you Google them.
    Jews with Gallo Roman names like: Armentarius,Priscus,Phatir.
    :Attachment 30097

    Now because of building tension and influence of Heraclius revolt,King Dagobert the Merovingian King had the Jews from France expulsed in 629AD(most probably moving to Lombard North Italy) whilst at the same time Heraclius temporarily attempted to expulse all Jews from Byzantine lands (Heraclius died 10 years later).
    :Attachment 30098

    Now take a look at the changing territory of Lombard & Byzantine Italy.
    Image Below:
    Attachment 30099
    All through this period Byzantine Jews were leaving Byzantine Italian lands for Rome & Further North,especially in 629AD.
    Life in Lombard lands was becoming far more attractive,especially as unlike Merovingian France & Byzantine lands the Lombards allowed Jews to have Slaves (even Italian oneís)
    Attachment 30100

    In 800 AD Merovingian lands became Carolingian lands and Charles Martel would become King Charlemagne unifying France,Germany & Lombard North Italy,eventually leading to Holy Roman Empire.
    From 800 AD Charlemagne aloud Jews North of the Alps once more and welcomed them back to France.
    Attachment 30101

    Iím thinking during the time in 629AD when Merovingian Jews were expulsed from France they moved into Lombard North Italy whilst at the same time because of temporary Byzantine Jewish expulsions many Byzantine Jews of Byzantine Italy moved further North to Rome and Lombard Italian lands.
    Maybe Merovingian French Jews,Italian Jews,and Southern Italian Jews gradually collected in Lombard North Italy,took Italian Slave wifeís and eventually,once Charlemagne allowed movement above the Alps this community progresses gradually along the map routes I originally posted evolving Geographically from Judeo Latin to Judeo Romance to Zarphatic Judeo French to Western Yiddish. All the while always being topped up,even once Ashkenazi Jewry was established by later diaspora from Italian Peninsula and elsewhere. ?
    The narrative does make sense.

    This would also explain why North Italian admixture is dated so late in Xue et al. (2017) as they created a South European reference group encompassing Greeks, Sicilians, South Italians and Bergamo Italians. If indeed North Italian-like admixture have entered so late - ie, 7th-8th century AD, that would explain why is skews up the dating of the rest of the South EU admixture to this implausible date.
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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

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  5. #5283
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    So got an even better run, with the following:

    [1] "distance%=1.0993"


    Ashkenazi_Jew


    Levant_LBN_Roman,34.8
    ITA_Collegno_Med_CL23,22.2
    Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,11.4
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,9.6
    DEU_Medieval,8
    CZE_Early_Slav,7
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,5.8
    Han_NChina,1.2

    I've ran all ancient Anatolian samples vs. Greek_Central_Anatolia to see which one is the closest - turns out the closest one is Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA. So taking into consideration that Anatolia_IA is questionable, I've switched it to that. I've then used Berber_Tunisia_Chen instead of Mozabite, as Tunisian Berbers seem to be a more likely source of North African admixture than Mozabites.

    I've also tried to incorporate Chinese admixture which we know exist to a very low degree in Ashkenazi Jews.

    So the following division is:

    Roman-era Levantine - 35%.
    North Italian Medieval - 22%.
    Hellenic-like - 21%.
    North European Medieval admixture - 15%.
    North African - 5.8%.
    East Asian - 1.2%.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    The narrative does make sense.

    This would also explain why North Italian admixture is dated so late in Xue et al. (2017) as they created a South European reference group encompassing Greeks, Sicilians, South Italians and Bergamo Italians. If indeed North Italian-like admixture have entered so late - ie, 7th-8th century AD, that would explain why is skews up the dating of the rest of the South EU admixture to this implausible date.
    This Article & this online book,do paint an interesting picture of Merovingian Jewry of the 6th/7th Century and worth a read if you get a chance:
    48994CC7-9261-47E4-AEA2-75B20E8162FF.png
    586C4E54-DEB4-408E-887A-DA0C50C78FBD.png
    C4E2D1E7-9980-4670-9FB0-EE3E29E518D8.png

    From what I’ve read,when the Ostrogoths took over Rome,they actually kept the administration in place,as Far as Roman aristocracy,and on assimilation,we have Sources stating separately that further south that the Jews of Naples defended the City walls of Naples almost singlehandedly against Byzantine forces on the Side of the Ostrogoths.
    It’s only after the end of the Ostrogoth-Byzantine Conflict,that Sources start telling of a severely malnourished and depopulated Italy.
    Then We have the Arrival of the Lombards in the North and Sources Claiming Byzantine re-population attempts in the South.
    Then We have the 500 year struggle for power between Lombards and Byzantines.
    68C52D02-10B6-4714-8756-C6BB27676779.jpeg

    By the Heraclius revolt 628AD and temporary expulsion of Byzantine Jews and the Expulsion of the Merovingian Jews in 629AD, Italy is a demographic mess.
    We have Sources which claim that Byzantine Sicilian Jews started leaving Sicily during this period,Autosomaly They May of had No Italian Admixture and been mainly Levantine-Aegean Greek with perhaps earlier Alexandrian Admixture mixed in as sources claim Alexandrian Jews wound up in Sicily.
    What the Admixture of the Merovingian Jews was like is anyone’s guess?
    They had supposed to of been in France since AD 79,So they may have had there ethnogenesis coming directly From the Levantine Roman Empire period So by this point May have been more French than Levantine.
    Either way I can’t help but think Lombard North Italy is the Key!
    I’ve mentioned it before but both Byzantine Jews and Merovingian Jews were not allowed Slaves.
    Lombard North Italy aloud Jews to have Slaves,I can’t find it now,but you may remember we found sources that Jews in Lombard North Italy (like everyone else) did actually work as slavers),as well as obviously merchants,medicine & Artisan craftsman.
    If Byzantine Sicilian,Byzantine Greek and Merovingian French Jews Converged in Lombard North Italy with Heraclius revolt and subsequent French and Byzantine expulsions as a catalyst that would make it possible that they had No Italian Admixture till there arrival in Lombard North Italy where the North Italian Admixture was added from Slave wife’s.
    Or Alternatively perhaps the Merovingian Jews who were expulsed from France May have been a remnant of the much earlier Roman Jewish population made of more Roman era convert ancestry which would make them the Source of the Italian Admixture when they back migrated into Lombard North Italy and mixed with the The Jews there of Byzantine origin?
    Last edited by Claudio; 04-28-2019 at 01:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post

    I've also tried to incorporate Chinese admixture which we know exist to a very low degree in Ashkenazi Jews.

    So the following division is:

    Roman-era Levantine - 35%.
    North Italian Medieval - 22%.
    Hellenic-like - 21%.
    North European Medieval admixture - 15%.
    North African - 5.8%.
    East Asian - 1.2%.

    How Ashkenzim acquired Chinese admixture?

    What I want to know is on Global 25, how we end up with Ashkenazim being so close to Sicilians and Cretans in DISTANCES when their components vary quite a bit. PCA can be explained but what about the distances?

    Anyway I am glad to see we actually agree now that both Greek and Italic admixture play a role in Ashkenazim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    By the Heraclius revolt 628AD and temporary expulsion of Byzantine Jews and the Expulsion of the Merovingian Jews in 629AD, Italy is a demographic mess.
    We have Sources which claim that Byzantine Sicilian Jews started leaving Sicily during this period,Autosomaly They May of had No Italian Admixture and been mainly Levantine-Aegean Greek with perhaps earlier Alexandrian Admixture mixed in as sources claim Alexandrian Jews wound up in Sicily.
    Alexandrian Jews should be close autosomally to today's Libyan Jews. This could contribute to Ashkenazim some of their North African.

    I actually have long considered Jews in Sicily to be an additional source of Sicilians' Levantine admixture particularly in places where it is slightly higher than average on the island but were not directly impacted by Phoenicians (inland eastern Palermo province, parts of Messina province were areas with larger numbers of Jews). In places with Levantine admixture today that is lower than the rest of the island like Syracuse, I also know Syracuse had a Jewish population, and I would be surprised if they all left or were expelled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    How Ashkenzim acquired Chinese admixture?

    What I want to know is on Global 25, how we end up with Ashkenazim being so close to Sicilians and Cretans in DISTANCES when their components vary quite a bit. PCA can be explained but what about the distances?

    Anyway I am glad to see we actually agree now that both Greek and Italic admixture play a role in Ashkenazim.
    Look up this Article:
    DC0512F0-BD6C-477A-A2B2-8F10EFD6170F.jpeg
    It’s quite good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Alexandrian Jews should be close autosomally to today's Libyan Jews. This could contribute to Ashkenazim some of their North African.

    I actually have long considered Jews in Sicily to be an additional source of Sicilians' Levantine admixture particularly in places where it is slightly higher than average on the island but were not directly impacted by Phoenicians (inland eastern Palermo province, parts of Messina province were areas with larger numbers of Jews). In places with Levantine admixture today that is lower than the rest of the island like Syracuse, I also know Syracuse had a Jewish population, and I would be surprised if they all left or were expelled.
    As far as Palermo is concerned Could just as easily be Levantine Arab Ancestry.
    Plus were not the Second wave of Jewish diaspora to come to Sicily,during the Emirate era Babylonian Jews? Who spoke Judeo Arab ? More Mesopotamian perhaps?
    I believe Sephardim from there time in Spain must have added Babylonian Jewish ancestry from al andulas period when Arab speaking Babylonian Jews moved there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    As far as Palermo is concerned Could just as easily be Levantine Arab Ancestry.
    Plus were not the Second wave of Jewish diaspora to come to Sicily,during the Emirate era Babylonian Jews? Who spoke Judeo Arab ? More Mesopotamian perhaps?
    I believe Sephardim from there time in Spain must have added Babylonian Jewish ancestry from al andulas period when Arab speaking Babylonian Jews moved there.
    With Palermo (and Agrigento, Trapani, Caltanissetta) there are many possible sources for MENA input. But I do know Syracuse had a very minimal impact during the Arab rule, and no Phoenician/Carthaginian presence but they did have a large Jewish population at one point, there are records of this... I wondered if that may have contributed to some of the Levantine input there (worth noting that eastern Sicily has Levantine, but almost no North African, if this tells us anything about the sources of settlement).

    As for Spain, I am unsure of the nature of the Jewish groups who migrated INTO Spain but I do know that many of the ancestors of today's Moroccan Jews had once lived there. In fact, Moroccan Jews are very close genetically to Ashkenazim and Sephardim, just with more North African.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    How Ashkenzim acquired Chinese admixture?
    No body really knows for certain.

    Most likely via Radhanites and the silk road, but what we do know is that it's directly from Chinese, not via Turks or Tatars (as the small amount of Chinese subclades found among Ashkenazi Jews are shared directly with Chinese).



    Anyway I am glad to see we actually agree now that both Greek and Italic admixture play a role in Ashkenazim.
    This seems to be the case mostly for Ashkenazi Jews. Italian Jews and Sephardic Jews and of course Romaniote Jews seem to prefer overall Hellenic-like South European admixture, rather than N. Italian.

    For this I might start accepting the possibility that Ashkenazi Jews mostly descend from North Italian Jews, and that Italian Jews mostly descend from South Italian Jews migrating Northward in later times.
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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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