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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    More on the issue of patrilineal vs. matrilineal determination of Jewishness. I've found a fascinating article based on documents discovered in the Cairo Genizah, revealing just how close Rabbinical-Karaite relations used to be, well into the 11th century (and according to Wikipedia's Hebrew article on Karaite Judaism, these close relations were somewhat maintained up until the 13th century), including, get this - regular marriages between the communities !

    https://www.academia.edu/1469989/B._..._2_2006._9_36_

    In light of this, and considering there is no documentation showing Karaites ever defined Jewishness matrilinealy, one cannot but wonder how flexible were Rabbinical Jews on that matter, as late as 700-900 years ago.
    Not flexible at all; it was a recurring problem for Jewish courts in locales where Karaim and normative Jews (sorry guys Karaim are nice people, legally Jewish but heretics) lived in proximity, like Jerusalem, Istanbul, Cairo, Crimea and Lithuania. Karaim, due to there rejection of Oral Tradition, are "safeq mamzerim" of doubtful lineage, due to non-normative divorce and remarriage practices.

    This excerpt is from a very popular and learned New York Rabbi, Rabbi Eli Mansour based in the Aleppo-Syrian tradition but an internet sage and in great demand as a lecturer across USA and Israel. If I need to catch up on my daily Babylonian Talmud class, he has an internet lesson for every single page of the Talmud Bavli and is my choice!

    https://www.dailyhalacha.com/display...earch=karaites
    Last edited by Targum; 06-12-2019 at 09:57 PM.

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  3. #5772
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    Sidebar, but still relevant to the broader topic, I just published a post with some new thoughts about the latest data on my Y subclade, E-Y6923, which is found in 5-6% of Ashkenazim. Offers some ideas about its relation to the broader E-M34 phylogeny, as well as its internal structure.

    I think deep subclade analysis has become underrated for ethnogenesis questions, partly because most study samples that are rich in autosomal insights are underpowered for historical-level Y-based analyses. But the precision can’t be beat. In the case of Y6923, once thought to be exclusively Ashkenazi, there’s decent evidence emerging for a proto-Ashkenazi/proto-Sephardi (or at least, non-Ashkenazi Western Jewish) split at the end of the late classical era. I wonder how many cases of this we’ll find in other subclades.

    (More remotely, to date, the closest Jewish E to this subclade is a cluster found in a few Romaniote families, but the common ancestor is still ~4th millennium BCE.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    No problem (it's 7 Romaniote kits, not 8):

    RomanioteJew1:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 12.19 Pct
    Baltic 2.34 Pct
    West_Med 20.70 Pct
    West_Asian 15.94 Pct
    East_Med 38.48 Pct
    Red_Sea 6.41 Pct
    South_Asian 1.78 Pct
    East_Asian -
    Siberian 0.52 Pct
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 1.03 Pct
    Sub-Saharan 0.61 Pct


    RomanioteJew2:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 13.98 Pct
    Baltic 2.34 Pct
    West_Med 21.26 Pct
    West_Asian 15.51 Pct
    East_Med 34.01 Pct
    Red_Sea 8.79 Pct
    South_Asian -
    East_Asian 1.46 Pct
    Siberian 0.66 Pct
    Amerindian 0.20 Pct
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 0.86 Pct
    Sub-Saharan 0.94 Pct


    RomanioteJew3:




     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 12.48 Pct
    Baltic 2.63 Pct
    West_Med 18.21 Pct
    West_Asian 14.17 Pct
    East_Med 41.10 Pct
    Red_Sea 8.98 Pct
    South_Asian -
    East_Asian 1.33 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 1.08 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -


    RomanioteJew4:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 9.19 Pct
    Baltic 4.66 Pct
    West_Med 21.32 Pct
    West_Asian 9.78 Pct
    East_Med 41.50 Pct
    Red_Sea 10.98 Pct
    South_Asian 0.10 Pct
    East_Asian 0.66 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian 0.91 Pct
    Northeast_African 0.92 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -



    RomanioteJew5:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 7.91 Pct
    Baltic 5.75 Pct
    West_Med 20.64 Pct
    West_Asian 15.45 Pct
    East_Med 38.00 Pct
    Red_Sea 8.47 Pct
    South_Asian -
    East_Asian 0.66 Pct
    Siberian 0.11 Pct
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian 0.62 Pct
    Northeast_African 2.39 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -



    RomanioteJew6:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 9.70 Pct
    Baltic 4.27 Pct
    West_Med 17.98 Pct
    West_Asian 13.52 Pct
    East_Med 39.72 Pct
    Red_Sea 10.68 Pct
    South_Asian 0.26 Pct
    East_Asian -
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 1.15 Pct
    Oceanian 0.93 Pct
    Northeast_African 1.80 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -


    RomanioteJew7:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 10.62 Pct
    Baltic 2.60 Pct
    West_Med 17.19 Pct
    West_Asian 18.42 Pct
    East_Med 39.02 Pct
    Red_Sea 7.76 Pct
    South_Asian 1.23 Pct
    East_Asian 0.47 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 0.26 Pct
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 2.42 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -
    It’s uncanny how similar the scores of the Romaniote samples are to the Italkim samples.
    If you hypothetically mixed them up and unlabeled them some of the Romaniote and Italkim kits are actually indistinguishable from each other.
    Only minor differences I can observe is in Italian Jewish kits 1,2,4,8 which have slightly higher North Atlantic in Comparison to the Romaniote kits average (Especially Kit 8)*

    North Atlantic:
    ITJEW 1)-14.56
    ITJEW 2)-14.56
    ITJEW 4)-14.25
    ITJEW 8)-19.38*

    And also in comparison to the Romaniote’s higher Baltic with Italian Jewish kits 7,8

    Baltic:
    ITJEW 7)-5.80
    ITJEW 8)-4.14

    What company did you test the Romaniote’s with?
    Do you have any haplogroup info on them?

    Last edited by Claudio; 06-13-2019 at 05:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    It’s uncanny how similar the scores of the Romaniote samples are to the Italkim samples.
    If you hypothetically mixed them up and unlabeled them some of the Romaniote and Italkim kits are actually indistinguishable from each other.
    Only minor differences I can observe is in Italian Jewish kits 1,2,4,8 which have slightly higher North Atlantic in Comparison to the Romaniote kits average (Especially Kit 8)*

    North Atlantic:
    ITJEW 1)-14.56
    ITJEW 2)-14.56
    ITJEW 4)-14.25
    ITJEW 8)-19.38*

    And also in comparison to the Romaniote’s higher Baltic with Italian Jewish kits 7,8

    Baltic:
    ITJEW 7)-5.80
    ITJEW 8)-4.14

    What company did you test the Romaniote’s with?
    Do you have any haplogroup info on them?

    https://jewishdna.net/Romaniote.html

    Not necessarily those above Romaniotes, but worth a look.

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    Genetic history of the population of Crete (13 June 2019 in Annals of Human Genetics)
    In the PCA of Crete vs Europe, the Cretans overlap with three populations: the Peloponneseans, the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews (see Figures 4a, S17, and S18). Southern European and Mediterranean ancestry of the Ashkenazi Jews has also been demonstrated before (Atzmon et al., 2010; Behar et al., 2010; Bauchet et al., 2007; Price et al., 2008; Seldin et al., 2006; Tian et al., 2008). Furthermore, we find in both PCA and ADMIXTURE analysis, that the Ashkenazi are more similar to the Cretans than to the two Levantine Semitic populations. One possible explanation is that this relation might reveal a common Mediterranean ancestry that the Cretan and Ashkenazi populations share
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmokeefe View Post
    Genetic history of the population of Crete (13 June 2019 in Annals of Human Genetics)
    In the PCA of Crete vs Europe, the Cretans overlap with three populations: the Peloponneseans, the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews (see Figures 4a, S17, and S18). Southern European and Mediterranean ancestry of the Ashkenazi Jews has also been demonstrated before (Atzmon et al., 2010; Behar et al., 2010; Bauchet et al., 2007; Price et al., 2008; Seldin et al., 2006; Tian et al., 2008). Furthermore, we find in both PCA and ADMIXTURE analysis, that the Ashkenazi are more similar to the Cretans than to the two Levantine Semitic populations. One possible explanation is that this relation might reveal a common Mediterranean ancestry that the Cretan and Ashkenazi populations share
    .
    Thanks for this unexpected wonderful study ! I've open a separated thread with the main highlights.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....404#post574404

    The sheer number of samples for this study is exciting - 131 Cretans from 17 different locations, with the criteria of all of them being older than 70 and have all four grandparents from Crete - so we're dealing with some high quality, pristine Cretans here.

    Here are the PCAs showing the overlap with Sicilians and Ashkenazi Jews:



    This study pretty much repeats (but this time, in peer reviewed study) what we've been discussing in this thread for over a year:

    The Sicilians and the reference to the Greek ancestry of Sicilians:

    "Both PCA and ADMIXTURE point to the strong genetic similarities between Cretans and Southern Europeans, especially the Sicilians (Figures 4a, 4c, and S11c). This genetic relationship is also demonstrated by network analysis of the European populations (Figure S14). Sicily has also been previously placed next to Crete using phylogenetic trees and tree mix analysis (Paschou et al., 2014). These results might reflect the common genetic history of Crete and Sicily rather than gene flow between the two islands. Sicily was heavily colonized by Greeks starting in the eight century BC (Freeman, 1891; Thucydides, 1986). Dorian Greeks colonized the South and the Southeast coast of Sicily while the Ionian Greeks colonized the North and Northeast coast. Sicily continued to be Hellenized in medieval times but under the Norman domination the usage of the Greek language was discouraged and it was eventually replaced by Italian. Southern Italy was also colonized by Ionian, Achaean, and Dorian Greeks, and these colonies, together with Sicily, composed the Greek‐dominated part of Italy, which the Latin speakers called Magna Graecia (Burry, 1963; Ceserani, 2012). The PCA (Figure 4a and 4c) and ADMIXTURE (Figure S15) data show that the historic bonds between Greece (including Crete) and Sicily were not simply cultural but genetic as well. The above findings were broadly confirmed by our ChromoPainter/FineSTRUCTURE analysis (Figure S16a and S16b)."

    On the overlap with Ashkenazi Jews:

    "In the PCA of Crete vs Europe, the Cretans overlap with three populations: the Peloponneseans, the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews (see Figures 4a, S17, and S18). Southern European and Mediterranean ancestry of the Ashkenazi Jews has also been demonstrated before (Atzmon et al., 2010; Behar et al., 2010; Bauchet et al., 2007; Price et al., 2008; Seldin et al., 2006; Tian et al., 2008). Furthermore, we find in both PCA and ADMIXTURE analysis, that the Ashkenazi are more similar to the Cretans than to the two Levantine Semitic populations. One possible explanation is that this relation might reveal a common Mediterranean ancestry that the Cretan and Ashkenazi populations share."

    ​The East Mediterranean Continuum strikes again in all it's glory
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    Btw, despite the similarity and overlap between Ashkenazi Jews and Cretans, the supplementary data shows the drift Ashkenazi Jews have compare to Sicilians and Cretans, showing the power of Jewish endogamy and Ashkenazi bottleneck:



    Supplementary Figure 17. PCA plots for the Cretans and Near Eastern Semitic populations. The first three principal components are shown.


    1. PCA plot of Cretans and the Ashkenazi, Palestinian, and Druze populations. The first two principal components are driven by the variation in the Palestinian and Druze populations. In this analysis, Ashkenazi and Cretans cluster very closely with each other.
    2. PCA plot for the Cretans and the Ashkenazi. The Cretans appear to be distinct from the Ashkenazi, with the first component capturing the cross-population differences, while the second component captures the internal variation in both populations, but mainly in Crete.
    3. PCA plot for Cretans, other Greeks, Italians and Ashkenazi. The Greeks cluster with the Italians, while forming a gradient that joins the Peloponnese with Cretans. The Ashkenazi continue to be distinct in this analysis.
    4. PCA plot for Cretans, Italians and Ashkenazi. The Cretans cluster with the Italians, while the Ashkenazi are distinct from this cluster.



    And regarding admixture, Ashkenazi Jews seem to be pretty indistinguishable from the 17 Cretan sub-populations while quite different from the other Near Eastern populations, except for K=6 and K=7:



    Supplementary Figure 18. ADMIXTURE analysis results for the Cretans and the Near Eastern Semitic populations. A range of two to eight hypothetical ancestral populations (K) is used. There is an early differentiation between the Cretans and the other populations. As K increases we can see the substructure mainly of the other populations, while the Cretans remain uniform. There appear to be some signals of gene flow between the Ashkenazi and the other populations. Interestingly, K6 and K7 clearly differentiate the Cretans with the Ashkenazi, while K8 returns to the earlier pattern.
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    This study has done a very good job of putting certain pet theories to bed.

    - Cretans cluster with Southern European populations and separate from the "Near Eastern Semitic" populations.
    - They overlap specifically with populations of majority Greek descent from Greece and former Magna Graecia.
    - Insignificant IBD sharing with Near Eastern (Hellenized Levantines), North African (Arab) or West Asian (Byzantine Armenian, Ottoman Turk) sources.

    All things considered I would say this points towards Cretans being a relatively archaic population and attributing the vast majority of their genetic structure to native Minoan, Greek and BA Anatolian sources between the founding of the Minoan civilization and Classical antiquity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    It’s uncanny how similar the scores of the Romaniote samples are to the Italkim samples.
    If you hypothetically mixed them up and unlabeled them some of the Romaniote and Italkim kits are actually indistinguishable from each other.
    Only minor differences I can observe is in Italian Jewish kits 1,2,4,8 which have slightly higher North Atlantic in Comparison to the Romaniote kits average (Especially Kit 8)*

    North Atlantic:
    ITJEW 1)-14.56
    ITJEW 2)-14.56
    ITJEW 4)-14.25
    ITJEW 8)-19.38*

    And also in comparison to the Romaniote’s higher Baltic with Italian Jewish kits 7,8

    Baltic:
    ITJEW 7)-5.80
    ITJEW 8)-4.14

    What company did you test the Romaniote’s with?
    Do you have any haplogroup info on them?

    Italian Jewish kits are now blocked on Gedmatch
    Maybe it was something I said

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmokeefe View Post
    Genetic history of the population of Crete (13 June 2019 in Annals of Human Genetics)
    In the PCA of Crete vs Europe, the Cretans overlap with three populations: the Peloponneseans, the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews (see Figures 4a, S17, and S18). Southern European and Mediterranean ancestry of the Ashkenazi Jews has also been demonstrated before (Atzmon et al., 2010; Behar et al., 2010; Bauchet et al., 2007; Price et al., 2008; Seldin et al., 2006; Tian et al., 2008). Furthermore, we find in both PCA and ADMIXTURE analysis, that the Ashkenazi are more similar to the Cretans than to the two Levantine Semitic populations. One possible explanation is that this relation might reveal a common Mediterranean ancestry that the Cretan and Ashkenazi populations share
    .
    Too bad they didn't include other Jewish populations (though I realize that's out of the scope of this specific study).

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