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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #5961
    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Attachment 31217Attachment 31218Attachment 31219

    I know this thread is being bumped by a lot of different topics relating to Western Jews, but I've been meaning to share this PCA here for a while. (kept forgetting)

    Years ago I purchased an individual analysis from Eurogenes when it was promoted. One of the things I received was a PCA with only several Western Jewish and Mizrahi Jewish populations.

    Apologies if it's not very clear to see. Italian Jews are in grey font.

    Main observations of mine below.

    1) French Jews (probably from that Atzmon study) are furtherest from all Mizrahi Jews and Western Jews, in fact on average seemingly further away than Ashkenazi Jews. Does this PCA suggest French Jews are more genetically drifted than Ashkenazi Jews and possibly a bigger source population for them as opposed to Italian Jews who cluster closer to the core then Ashkenazi Jews? French Jews by the way have considerably less EHG than Ashkenazi Jews, so don't interpret the cline between Jews as strictly having everything to do with which group is more Semitic, Mesopotamian, Mediterranean or European admixed.

    2) The Sephardic Jews that overlap with the Italian Jews are likely the Bulgarian Jews. The Sephardic Jews closest to the North African Jews are probably mostly the Turkish Jews.

    3) This PCA confirms the Moroccan/Algerian and Tunisian/Libyan Jewish genetic groups recognised in academic studies.

    4) One can only wonder where the Romaniotes would cluster. My guess is they may even sit south of the Sephardic Jews maybe drifted slightly towards the Mizrahi Jews from the Italian Jews.
    what is the jewish group with the yellow font?

  2. #5962
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Except the communities that were living in North & Central Italy.
    There were documented Ashkenazi communities living in both Venice 1516 AD and Rome in 1550 AD.
    They came from Central Europe not Eastern..
    Prior to the later back migrations of the 1700ís.
    This does not contradict what I said. Italy was never part of Germania.

  3. #5963
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
    French Jews are probably a combination of Western Ashkenazi and West Med Sephardic. Note that Eurogenes is limited to East Med Sephardic and Eastern Ashkenazi. Yes, it is important to distinguish between Northwest and Northeast Africa. Have you compared your results to the new McDonald 3D PCA program at Eurogenes Oracle 4.
    No, what's this new McDonald 3D PCA about? Do you have a link?

    Quote Originally Posted by wussel restbrook View Post
    what is the jewish group with the yellow font?
    They are Iraqi Jews.

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  5. #5964
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    No, what's this new McDonald 3D PCA about? Do you have a link?



    They are Iraqi Jews.
    Just go to Eurogenes K13. Choose the Oracle 4 option. The 3D program will be listed. Caution, the program is still in process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
    French Jews are probably a combination of Western Ashkenazi and West Med Sephardic. Note that Eurogenes is limited to East Med Sephardic and Eastern Ashkenazi. Yes, it is important to distinguish between Northwest and Northeast Africa. Have you compared your results to the new McDonald 3D PCA program at Eurogenes Oracle 4.
    If you look at G25 PCAs which has plenty of different jewish groups plotted, the picture is rather clear.

  8. #5966
    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post


    They are Iraqi Jews.
    It's quite weird that most Irainian Jews don't cluster with Iraqi Jews in this PCA.

  9. #5967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Attachment 31217Attachment 31218Attachment 31219

    I know this thread is being bumped by a lot of different topics relating to Western Jews, but I've been meaning to share this PCA here for a while. (kept forgetting)

    Years ago I purchased an individual analysis from Eurogenes when it was promoted. One of the things I received was a PCA with only several Western Jewish and Mizrahi Jewish populations.

    Apologies if it's not very clear to see. Italian Jews are in grey font.

    Main observations of mine below.

    1) French Jews (probably from that Atzmon study) are furtherest from all Mizrahi Jews and Western Jews, in fact on average seemingly further away than Ashkenazi Jews. Does this PCA suggest French Jews are more genetically drifted than Ashkenazi Jews and possibly a bigger source population for them as opposed to Italian Jews who cluster closer to the core then Ashkenazi Jews? French Jews by the way have considerably less EHG than Ashkenazi Jews, so don't interpret the cline between Jews as strictly having everything to do with which group is more Semitic, Mesopotamian, Mediterranean or European admixed.

    2) The Sephardic Jews that overlap with the Italian Jews are likely the Bulgarian Jews. The Sephardic Jews closest to the North African Jews are probably mostly the Turkish Jews.

    3) This PCA confirms the Moroccan/Algerian and Tunisian/Libyan Jewish genetic groups recognised in academic studies.

    4) One can only wonder where the Romaniotes would cluster. My guess is they may even sit south of the Sephardic Jews maybe drifted slightly towards the Mizrahi Jews from the Italian Jews.
    Unless its Provence Jews from one of the four Papal cities which were not expelled, virtually all Jews in France were expelled back in 1394, and weren't back until the 17th century. Starting from the 19th century onward, and especially after 1960, many North African Jews also settled in France from Algeria and Tunis.

    Judging by how genetically distinct these French Jews are on this PCA, they might be Provence Jews, or they might simply be Ashkenazi French Jews which were settling from the 17th century onward.
    Check out my Hidden Content

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  11. #5968
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    Quote Originally Posted by wussel restbrook View Post
    It's quite weird that most Irainian Jews don't cluster with Iraqi Jews in this PCA.
    Is it? I always thought Iraqi Jews would usually plot a little closer to Levantine Arabs then Iranian Jews. Since there are very limited populations in this PCA it's really bringing out intra-Jewish variation which you would otherwise hardly notice with the inclusion of non-Jewish populations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Unless its Provence Jews from one of the four Papal cities which were not expelled, virtually all Jews in France were expelled back in 1394, and weren't back until the 17th century. Starting from the 19th century onward, and especially after 1960, many North African Jews also settled in France from Algeria and Tunis.

    Judging by how genetically distinct these French Jews are on this PCA, they might be Provence Jews, or they might simply be Ashkenazi French Jews which were settling from the 17th century onward.
    I think either sound possible so long as the Ashkenazi French Jews derived from Western Ashkenazi.

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  13. #5969
    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Is it? I always thought Iraqi Jews would usually plot a little closer to Levantine Arabs then Iranian Jews. Since there are very limited populations in this PCA it's really bringing out intra-Jewish variation which you would otherwise hardly notice with the inclusion of non-Jewish populations.
    Iranian Jews seem to be mostly descent from Iraqi Jews, though they are a bit less Levantine than Iraqi Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    There was a time especially in Hassidic circles to claim legendary Sephardic origins to boost their lineage or add kind of pseudo-nobility. Unfortunately almost all the claims seem to be unfounded. There was a Sephardic community in Romania, some of them might have moved there. But the evidence is not very convincing. I personally would not spend time with it.

    Why don't you guys get G25 coordinates from Davidski eurogenes blog. It is pretty accurate and we can run some tests on them. It costs around $10.

    I shared a Eurogenes K15 map results here that positions sephardic jews at a pretty dense spot: I you give me your gedmatch numbers or directly K15 results i can add you to the map just for fun.
    I have G25 coordinates, though I don't know what G25 coordinates contain, even though it's just 25 numbers. I can pm you them. I've plotted myself and my family on K15 before. Here are my coordinates: x=697, y=484.

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