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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #6181
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    EC8F6D94-15DE-440B-92B3-37D3AED2F47B.jpeg

    From what I’ve read after the complete expulsion of Jews from Libya (following the Kitos War) and the Roman re-population of Cyrenaica there is little mention of Jews in Libya until arrival of Italian Jews in 17th Century.

    Hypothetically if the Ancient Libyan Jewish Community that got expulsed to Hellenistic Judea/Antioch in 117AD etc were highly Berber admixed could there added Admixture in Antioch/Hellenistic Judea be responsible for the North African Berber Admixture found in modern Jews like the Romaniote Jews of Ioannina who are in turn descended from Byzantine Romaniote Jews who in turn were descended from these east med Hellenistic communities?
    Last edited by Claudio; 07-04-2019 at 08:53 PM.

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  3. #6182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Okay, according to the article Jews were expelled from Sardinia after 1492, but some returned in the 19th century. So there is no continuity since Roman times.
    Why no continuity? It could be that many descendants from those 4000 Jews in the Tiberius times where already Chrisitian at 1492, and some other converted in 1492.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I wouldn't go as far as to call it a disappointment. The lack of Y-Chromosomal resolution in ancient DNA papers is a recurring theme, one that needs to be addressed.
    I considered it to be a disappointment, because we could not find a single Y-chromosome branch that could be called of Philistine origin. I expected to find some Jewish Y-chromosome branches that go back to Philistines, but we currently cannot identify any.

    Yes, this is a problem that in aDNA papers they publish just BT Y-chromosome happlogroup, even in a case of the most common branch of one of major happlogroups. Ok, we get more detailed happlogroups ourselves, but those detailed happlogroups will eventually got lost inside hundred page threads.

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  7. #6184
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    Figured out that I have to upgrade to the V5 chip in order to participate in the new beta ancestry composition rollouts. 23andme wants to charge me $125 for the upgrade. Pffft, no thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Is your Greek half coming up mostly Italian? Wanted to ask.
    No, it comes up as mostly Western Asian actually. I linked to my mom using the parent inheritance algorithm. Based on that, the contribution from my father breaks down as follows:

    Western Asian - 15.5%
    Italian - 11.1%
    Greek & Balkan - 9.9%
    Broadly Southern European - 8.1%
    Broadly Western Asian & North African - 1.7%
    Broadly European - 1.6%
    North African & Arabian - 0.2%
    Unassigned - 0.5%

    It doesn't quite add up to 50% but it's close enough. So, multiplying these values by 2 to get a simulation of my father's scores would likely yield something like 35% MENA, 65% Southern Euro. By 23andme's standards anyway.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 07-05-2019 at 06:17 AM.
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  9. #6185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Figured out that I have to upgrade to the V5 chip in order to participate in the new beta ancestry composition rollouts. 23andme wants to charge me $125 for the upgrade. Pffft, no thanks.



    No, it comes up as mostly Western Asian actually. I linked to my mom using the parent inheritance algorithm. Based on that, the contribution from my father breaks down as follows:

    Western Asian - 15.5%
    Italian - 11.1%
    Greek & Balkan - 9.9%
    Broadly Southern European - 8.1%
    Broadly Western Asian & North African - 1.7%
    Broadly European - 1.6%
    North African & Arabian - 0.2%
    Unassigned - 0.5%

    It doesn't quite add up to 50% but it's close enough. So, multiplying these values by 2 to get a simulation of my father's scores would likely yield something like 35% MENA, 65% Southern Euro. By 23andme's standards anyway.

    Rather than upgrade,could just wait for a 23andMe sale,then purchase whole new kit (the basic cheaper Ancestry kit) which is basically a normal 23andme kit minus the health related crap probably looking at $70 Sale time.

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  11. #6186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post

    Western Asian - 15.5%
    Italian - 11.1%
    Greek & Balkan - 9.9%
    Broadly Southern European - 8.1%
    Broadly Western Asian & North African - 1.7%
    Broadly European - 1.6%
    North African & Arabian - 0.2%
    Unassigned - 0.5%

    my father's scores would likely yield something like 35% MENA, 65% Southern Euro. By 23andme's standards anyway.
    Very high, 35% is about the same as Eastern Sephardic Jews. Only your father is probably exclusively West Asian, whereas Eastern Sephardim split a little between West Asian VS North African & Arabian. It would only make logical sense that perhaps plenty (maybe not all) of Greek Islanders have retained not only a higher amount of Anatolian ancestry then Sephardic Jews, but also an assorted amount, with some that Jews probably missed out on following the exodus towards the West Mediterranean, ie Greek Cappadocians relative to the Bronze Age Anatolians appear as if Armenized a little in comparison but that does not make them any less Anatolian. Armenians are East Anatolians to me even if today the country may be up by the Caucasus highlands or near.

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  13. #6187
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    I took someone else's calculator in this thread and added in the averages for the Philistines. Testing the sample of 471 Ashkenazim, as opposed to the one that's based off 7 samples, yielded the following:

    [1] "distance%=1.0721"

    AJ_average_scaled

    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,23.6
    ITA_Collegno_MA,18
    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA,17.8
    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA2,15.2
    CZE_Early_Slav,12
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA,7.4
    Mozabite,6
    Last edited by StillWater; 07-05-2019 at 01:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Figured out that I have to upgrade to the V5 chip in order to participate in the new beta ancestry composition rollouts. 23andme wants to charge me $125 for the upgrade. Pffft, no thanks.



    No, it comes up as mostly Western Asian actually. I linked to my mom using the parent inheritance algorithm. Based on that, the contribution from my father breaks down as follows:

    Western Asian - 15.5%
    Italian - 11.1%
    Greek & Balkan - 9.9%
    Broadly Southern European - 8.1%
    Broadly Western Asian & North African - 1.7%
    Broadly European - 1.6%
    North African & Arabian - 0.2%
    Unassigned - 0.5%

    It doesn't quite add up to 50% but it's close enough. So, multiplying these values by 2 to get a simulation of my father's scores would likely yield something like 35% MENA, 65% Southern Euro. By 23andme's standards anyway.
    I suppose you've been skewed by 23andme's inclusion of Cyprus in their 'western Asian' category. Nice to see that since the LBA, Aphrodite is still luring Greeks to her island
    Last edited by Andrewid; 07-06-2019 at 02:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    I suppose you've been skewed by 23andme's inclusion of Cyprus in their 'western Asian' category. Nice to see that since the LBA, Aphrodite is still luring Greeks to her island
    How do you and other Cypriots typically score? I'm sure that Cyprus reference eats up a lot so you probably get a ton of "West Asian" ancestry.

    I found a Dodecanese with the same West Asian score as father:

     


    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Very high, 35% is about the same as Eastern Sephardic Jews.
    I'm interested in such results. How do non-Ashkenazi Jews typically score on 23andme?
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  19. #6190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post

    Based on the Roman era and medieval Lebanon samples, I have to admit I'm skeptical of significant outside gene flow into the Levant during the Hellenistic period. I know you've pushed strongly for gene flow into Jews from Godfearers, but could this have been mostly limited to diasporan Jews living in places like Anatolia? Could the ancestors of Syrian/Lebanese Jews have been diasporans who returned to the Holy Land later? If not, then it seems a foregone conclusion that the Southern European ancestry in Musta'arabi was indeed acquired in the Levant.
    Actually, in my modeling of Roman-era Lebanese, adding both IA Iranian AND Empuries samples greatly improve the models, rather than either one of them alone. So I wouldn't be so quick as to discard the possibility of Hellenistic influence on the littoral Levantine populations:

    Without Hellenistic Greek admixture:

    [1] "distance%=2.5263"


    Levant_LBN_Roman


    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA2,82.8
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,8.8
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,8.4

    With Hellenistic Greek admixture:

    [1] "distance%=1.6903"


    Levant_LBN_Roman


    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA2,70.2
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,15.2
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,7.6
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,7


    IMO, and this is something which is brewing in my head for a long time now, we're looking at a very complex genetic "pendulum" kind of scenario, reflecting the turmoils of the post Bronze Age collapse and the different waves of migration entering into the Levant throughout the Iron Age. I believe at first, especially in the very Late Iron Age (so 8th-6th centuries BCE), Iran_ChL admixture had risen to be more than the 45-50% that was suggested by Haber et al. (2017) and which we repeatedly confirm for contemporary and Roman-era Levantines. I believe Assyrian, then Babylonian, then Persian penetration and rule over the Levant from roughly the late 10th century BCE all the way to the early 4th century BCE, had brought in both Steppe admixture and additional Iran_ChL admixture. This is btw reflected in the above models, and also before we had the Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA2 samples, when using Canaanite MBA:

    Without Hellenistic Greek admixture:

    [1] "distance%=1.9723"


    Levant_LBN_Roman


    Levant_Canaanite_MBA,87.2
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,7
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,5.8


    With Hellenistic Greek admixture:

    [1] "distance%=1.5312"


    Levant_LBN_Roman


    Levant_Canaanite_MBA,76.4
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,11.4
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,7.6
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,4.6






    Then, since the 9th century BCE onward, Arab tribes began migrating and settling in the Levant - this is actually documented by the Assyrians and and other Near Eastern Empires of that period. Those Arabs would have more Levant_N than Iran_ChL, and would resemble the EBA Levant samples from Jordan more than the MBA Canaanite samples. As was already debated in this thread in the past, this is still the case in contemporary Arabs.

    [1] "distance%=3.7053"


    Levant_JOR_EBA


    Levant_PPNB,67
    IRN_Seh_Gabi_C,33

    And contemporary Arabs:

    [1] "distance%=4.9655"


    Saudi


    Levant_JOR_EBA,96.8
    TZA_Zanzibar_1300BP,3.2 (* post Muslim East SSA admixture)



    So when I try to model Roman-era Lebanese samples with both additional Iran_IA, Hellenistic Greek, AND Arab-like Levantine (with 67/33 balance between Levant_N and Iran_ChL), I get the best distance:





    [1] "distance%=1.3653"


    Levant_LBN_Roman


    Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA2,39
    Levant_JOR_EBA,24
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,17.4
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,11.4
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,8.2
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