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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #6261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    For several reasons.

    First of all, pretty much any PCA focused on highlighting genetic drift will soon reveal that Western Jews are highly related, and most likely descend from the same core population. For merely the Levantine component to do that, you'll need either that their Levantine component would be more than 50% of their genetic profile (and in any case, pretty much identical in all of them), or that the European (or more precisely, their non-Levantine Mediterranean component) would be pretty much similar. Here's Davidski's (now famous in this thread) PCA which shows just this:

     


    As is quite clear from this PCA, and it's not just my interpretation, but also after much discussion about it with Davidski over PMs when he published this PCA here, Jews seem to all descend from same population. For me this PCA also show nicely how South Italians and Aegean Greeks also form their own population, while Samaritans as a result of extensive endogamy are now drifted apart from the rest of the Levantines. Cypriots, as expected, seem to form a bridge between the Aegean Greeks (represented currently in the Global25 datasheet by Cretans) and Levantines.

    Furthermore, for Romaniote Jews, for example, to overlap in normal PCA with Sephardic or Italian Jews, you'll need that the Greek component would be more than 50%, or they'd end up overlapping with Cypriots - and then you're going to have a problem with the genetic drift PCAs.

    Furthermore, for lets say a 50/50 Levantine-Italian admixture to drop them halfway between the Levant and Italy and overlapping with Romaniote and Syrian Jews, the Italian component would need to be North Italian - which is historically problematic, as the biggest and most important Jewish community (as well as where you actually have documentation for conversion of Roman citizens to Judaism) was in Rome, not North Italy.

    A possible recent loophole which has been suggested by several of us for this, is that Romans themselves were mostly Aegean-like back when Jews arrived, and so would still allow for an Aegean-like admixture in Western Jews, but in separated locations.

    I for one think it's over complicated, considering the staggering historical and archaeological evidence we have that Jews accepted Greek and Hellenic proselytes in the East Mediterranean centuries before arriving en mass to Rome, and that the first Jews to settle in Rome were most likely Hellenistic Greek speaking Jews, which practiced a denomination that sought acceptance and integration of Greco-Roman proselytes, rather than the more rural, Aramaic speaking Judean populace, and so they most likely already arrived to the Italian peninsula either from other Hellenistic Jewish communities in Egypt, Greece, Asia Minor and the Levant, alongside Judeans, and were already mixed with Southeast Europeans from their generations of living and accepting proselytes in the East Mediterranean.
    I apologize for the late reply. Been busy.

    I'm not a geneticist and I don't see how Davidski's PCA necessarily demonstrates that:

    pretty much any PCA focused on highlighting genetic drift will soon reveal that Western Jews are highly related, and most likely descend from the same core population. For merely the Levantine component to do that, you'll need either that their Levantine component would be more than 50% of their genetic profile (and in any case, pretty much identical in all of them), or that the European (or more precisely, their non-Levantine Mediterranean component) would be pretty much similar. Here's Davidski's (now famous in this thread) PCA which shows just this:
    The narrative you present afterwards, while possibly consistent with the graph, isn't the only possible explanation. I understand that because Jewish groups are positioned above both Europeans and Levantines, the intuition is that they derive from from the same core population, which in your narrative is the localized mixing of Aegeans, Berbers, and Levantines, though you allow for an additional such locale in Italy:

    A possible recent loophole which has been suggested by several of us for this, is that Romans themselves were mostly Aegean-like back when Jews arrived, and so would still allow for an Aegean-like admixture in Western Jews, but in separated locations.
    What's interesting is that Samaritans are also elevated on the second component, as diaspora Jews are, but you attribute this to endogamy. Again, it's plausible and consistent. However, another intuitive explanation is that for whatever reason, maybe an earlier drift, the diaspora Jews are merely Samaritans shifted on the first component, primarily owing to their respective admixtures in their diasporas.

    As for arguments such as these:

    Furthermore, for Romaniote Jews, for example, to overlap in normal PCA with Sephardic or Italian Jews, you'll need that the Greek component would be more than 50%, or they'd end up overlapping with Cypriots - and then you're going to have a problem with the genetic drift PCAs.

    Furthermore, for lets say a 50/50 Levantine-Italian admixture to drop them halfway between the Levant and Italy and overlapping with Romaniote and Syrian Jews, the Italian component would need to be North Italian - which is historically problematic, as the biggest and most important Jewish community (as well as where you actually have documentation for conversion of Roman citizens to Judaism) was in Rome, not North Italy.
    Again, I'm not a geneticist, so I don't have any intuition for how drift shows from PCA to PCA, nor how immediate such a conclusion must be. PCAs are model dependent and the solutions to them are not unique. Hell, flipping the sign on a principal component will still be remain a solution. Then, in order to get a 2D picture, we have to get rid of the other dimensions. We can produce infinitely many such PCAs for this subject, infinite across many criteria. And while I don't understand genetic drift, my intuition is that a linear PCA may not even be best for it, which opens up a whole other universe to consider. Yet, you argue the whole thing from intuition. Though granted, it's intuition based on the PCAs you've seen so far.Yet, I still don't understand how you've seen or can imagine a sufficient amount of relevant PCAs to draw such conclusions. For the sake of argument, here is a counter example. Take the Eurogenes K15 plot that's often used online. In case it's not a PCA, let's pretend that it is; as suggested earlier, the density of possible PCAs makes it possible for us to find a model for which the graph is a solution for. Let's looks at Italkim, since Ashkenazim force us to consider additional events. Italkim are about halfway between Tuscans and Lebanese Druze. Tuscany and Rome are both in central Italy, and though I am not familiar with Italy's modern or historical genetic landscape, I can't imagine that Rome could've been sufficiently different in order to rule out my counter example based on mere intuition. Also, do you mind showing me the record of the conversion in Rome? I've previously asked you to share the record of surrounding the conversion of Balto-Slavic women, but you never responded. I'm not challenging your historical claim in either instance. I simply really want to see the info as well - we're here because we're interested in the same stuff and I'm sure others would love to see it too.

    Back to the content - you do suggest the possibility of the Roman population being similar to Aegeans - why not similar to northern Italians? Also, it's counter intuitive that Rome's importance overshadowed that of other communities, as the Kalonymides were in Lucca, and they were arguably the family to spawn the Rabbinic foundation for Ashkenaz.

    Anyway, I appreciate your lengthy reply to me and apologize for interrupting the flow of the thread with a delayed response.
    Last edited by StillWater; 07-11-2019 at 04:01 AM.

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  3. #6262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Thanks. I wonder how common that was.

    I'm beginning to believe we're missing out on an "Orientalizing" period in Western Jews, that most likely took place during the Geonic period, which would solve a big puzzle in our admixture calculations.

    Take a look. I used these populations' averages (Global25 scaled):

    Levant_LBN_Roman
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen

    And these are the results I got, first for Mizrahi Jews (the North African component disappears completely, the Classical Greek Empuries component is minimized to pretty much noise, except for Georgian Jews, which makes sense considering their geographical proximity to the Byzantine Empire and Crimea):

    [1] "distance%=2.1607"

    Iraqi_Jew

    Levant_LBN_Roman,68
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,20.4
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,11.6


    [1] "distance%=1.6887"

    Iranian_Jew

    Levant_LBN_Roman,46.6
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,27.2
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,23.6
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,2.6




    [1] "distance%=1.597"

    Georgian_Jew

    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,40.8
    Levant_LBN_Roman,26.4
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,21.6
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,11.2


    Now Western Jews, without North Italian admixture:

    [1] "distance%=1.6156"

    Syrian_Jew

    Levant_LBN_Roman,33
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,25.4
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,16.8
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,12.4
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,12.4


    [1] "distance%=1.5136"

    Romaniote_Jew

    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,42.4
    Levant_LBN_Roman,27.8
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,11.8
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,9.8
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,8.2

    [1] "distance%=1.6335"

    Libyan_Jew

    Levant_LBN_Roman,34.2
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,28.6
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,23.2
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,7.8
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,6.2


    [1] "distance%=1.37"

    Tunisian_Jew

    Levant_LBN_Roman,37.2
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,29.6
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,24
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,6.6
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,2.6



    ^^^ The further one goes geographically from Mesopotamia, the less Iran_IA admixture in the Western Jewish samples:

    Syrian Jews - 29.2%
    Romaniote Jews - 18%
    Libyan Jews - 14%
    Tunisian Jews - 9.2%




    Now for Western Jews with historically likely North Italian admixture (I used Collegno CL23 as a proxy for early Medieval North Italian component):

    [1] "distance%=1.2917"

    Italian_Jew

    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,33.4
    Levant_LBN_Roman,25.6
    ITA_Collegno_MA,20.6
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,10.4
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,5.2
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,4.8


    [1] "distance%=1.001"

    Sephardic_Jew

    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,30.4
    Levant_LBN_Roman,25
    ITA_Collegno_MA,18.2
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,12
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,7.4
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,7


    [1] "distance%=1.9265"

    Moroccan_Jew

    Levant_LBN_Roman,30.8
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,23.2
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,19.4
    ITA_Collegno_MA,17.4
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,5.6
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,3.6


    And finally, Ashkenazi Jews, so I've added DEU_MA and Baltic_EST_MA for Medieval North Western and Eastern European:

    [1] "distance%=1.1636"

    Ashkenazi_Jew

    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,27
    Levant_LBN_Roman,23.6
    ITA_Collegno_MA,13.2
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,9
    DEU_MA,7.4
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,7.2
    IRN_Hasanlu_IA,6.4
    Baltic_EST_MA,6.2

    Now here where it gets interesting, regarding Iran_IA admixture.

    We see that Sephardic Jews have the highest amount, which corresponds IMO to the rise of Spain as a major Jewish religious center, rivaling the declining Babylonian center, right around the 10th century CE - perhaps drawing to it Babylonian Jews?

    In any case, for North Italian mixed Western Jews, these are the amounts of Iran_IA admixture I got:

    Sephardic Jews - 14.4%
    Ashkenazi Jews - 13.6%
    Italian Jews - 10%
    Moroccan Sephardic Jews - 9.2%

    I think the reason for more Iran_IA admixture in Ashkenazi Jews is thanks to the known small amount of Mizrahi Jews settling in Eastern Europe. Moroccan Sephardic Jews seemed to have had (before the coming of Sephardic Jews) even lower amounts of it, continuing the trend we saw in the Libyan and Tunisian Jews, but the admixture with Sephardic Jews elevated it to ~9%.


    If this is correct, it's pretty huge, no less the the premise of this thread regarding Aegean-like admixture, and it's yet like another move in the giant chess game of solving this riddle.

    What's your take on this?
    Can we get safe, but reasonably tight lower and upper bounds on Berber ancestry for these groups? Using SSA may be a good idea, as a proxy, whereby it's some % of the Berber input. SSA is easier to separate from other components.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Can we get safe, but reasonably tight lower and upper bounds on Berber ancestry for these groups? Using SSA may be a good idea, as a proxy, whereby it's some % of the Berber input. SSA is easier to separate from other components.
    IMO, just use bedouin A and Bedouin B, palestinians in G25 database have around 20% of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    IMO, just use bedouin A and Bedouin B, palestinians in G25 database have around 20% of it.
    I'm trying get a range for the possible Berber ancestry in Jewish populations. Are you saying that Bedouin A&B doesn't overlap much with the Berber component?

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    I'm trying get a range for the possible Berber ancestry in Jewish populations. Are you saying that Bedouin A&B doesn't overlap much with the Berber component?
    Berbers and Bedouins are different populations, you really shouldn't use one as a proxy for the other. If they overlapped north Africans would be really similar to Arabs, but they are not
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>BY36858>E-Y168273 (probably Scythian-Sarmatian). Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
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    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content
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    [1] "distance%=1.7726"

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    I'm trying get a range for the possible Berber ancestry in Jewish populations. Are you saying that Bedouin A&B doesn't overlap much with the Berber component?
    have a look first at these ones

     


  9. #6267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Berbers and Bedouins are different populations, you really shouldn't use one as a proxy for the other. If they overlapped north Africans would be really similar to Arabs, but they are not
    I'm perfectly aware. No one is attempting to do that.
    Last edited by StillWater; 07-11-2019 at 09:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    have a look first at these ones

     

    What does this have to do with finding out how much Berber ancestry Jews have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post

    have a look first at these ones

     

    however this is a bit misleading and not the best fit. I guessed most of these samples are missing an Anatolian component. I chose Greek Central Anatolian which is half Armenian like. Therefore it brings down the armenian component down and eats up from the samaritan component
     



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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    however this is a bit misleading and not the best fit. I guessed most of these samples are missing an Anatolian component. I chose Greek Central Anatolian which is half Armenian like. Therefore it brings down the armenian component down and eats up from the samaritan component
     


    Moreover, Egyptian samples in G25 do not have any of these west asian components. Probably they miss the crucial SSA component.

     

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