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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    [QUOTE=StillWater;581236]I apologize for the late reply. Been busy “


    To be fair I think you are a bit late to the party so to speak as a lot of these questions have been answered earlier in thread.
    According to 23andMe people of full Ashkenazim ancestry Owe there minor east Euro ancestry within the Modern Ashkenazim cluster to 14th/15th Century. This coincides with a short window period where documented marriages took place before being stopped by Christian Churches. (Erikl86 earlier shared the sources on this period)

    As for Romans.
    We know south Italians and Aegean Greeks cluster together because of Ancient Greek ancestry.
    There was recent study on Lazio Italian populations.
    In this study it showed that Roman Imperial period Roman Central Italians plotted like modern southern Italians.
    Only later After late antiquity either as a result of North Euro/Germanic invasions or influx of North Italians,Central Italians admixture levels changed and they went from plotting like modern South Italians to plotting like modern Central Italians.

    During Byzantine/Ostrogoth then Byzantine/Lombard controlled Italy there are various sources indicating Northward movements of Central Italian and South Italian Jews out of Byzantine controlled territories into North Italy prior to Charlemagne unifying France/Germany/North & Central Italy and inviting Italian Jews to settle back in France/Germany again as previously all Jews had been completely expulsed.
    Last edited by Claudio; 07-11-2019 at 11:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Iím wondering about this to..
    Arguably the Romaniote and Italian Jews of 800AD would be far more Near Eastern Shifted than modern Italian & Romaniote Jews: logic being Italian & Romaniote Jews have taken on added Greek & Italian Admixture since then up to modern times,where as the Italian/Romaniote Ancestors of Ashkenazim have taken on North & East Euro Admixture.
    That being said ďifĒ Ashkenazim can be modeled as 85% modern Italian Jew + 15% North/East Euro or 70% modern Romaniote 30% miscellaneous this would suggest less Levantine Admixture in comparison to other Western Jews? but then like you say nmonte contradicts this by suggesting an equal amount?? Canít be both?? Maybe someone else following thread could interject a theory to solve this conundrum?
    Erikl86.
    Whatís your opinion on this conundrum above?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    Moreover, Egyptian samples in G25 do not have any of these west asian components. Probably they miss the crucial SSA component.

     
    Now I will try to address the question of Berbers. I added up Mozabite, Guanche and our Tunisian Chen samples. Mozabite is clearly preferred and improves the fit for Egyptians

     

    But what about the our Levantine samples? How it beaves when these 3 North African populations are added.
     



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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    But what about the our Levantine samples? How it beaves when these 3 North African populations are added.
    Always think it's good to quarantine the academic studies public samples and check for outliers and anomalies like you are doing as well.

    I think Assyrians, Armenians and Greek Trabzons are genetically VERY, VERY genetically similar to one another though, with perhaps just Assyrians showing a slight Semitic and Central Asian drift from Armenians. Comparing the three is like comparing Italian Jews, Romaniotes and Eastern Sephardics with each other. subtle but insignificant variation in the grand scheme of things. For this kind of analysis, I would keep Greek Cappadocians as they are an excellent general proxy for Anatolia and use only Assyrians of the three discussed to represent a Mesopotamian proxy.

    I would also scrap BedouinA. BedouinA I think may really just be a Palestinian-Arab, which is why Palestinians score so much of this and next to no Samaritan. Palestinians aren't scoring any Samaritan in this analysis (which they should and lots) because the tool is searching for a population which can account for the East African signature admixture in Muslim Palestinians. If you include the Dinka and remove BedouinA, I bet Samaritan will increase significantly. Archaic East African traces of DNA is a real signature feature of Southern Levantines though. A user here just made a thread on Christian Jordanians who all show zero SSA but sizeable chunks of archaic NE African DNA. Western Jews seem to have this archaic NE African DNA, but some might be explained via Berber admixture too.

    BedouinB are a good proxy if you are looking to estimate perhaps gulf-Arab or Egyptian type admixture in Levantine-Arabs I think, so keep them if you wish.

    Just some thoughts.

    Edit: What I meant to add was using Assyrians, Greek Trabzon and Armenians together as parent populations, you risk having over fitted results. I would remove Greek Trabzons and Armenians and keep Assyrians since Greek Capadocians are useful enough. This kind of analysis has been beaten to death in this thread, but it I'm happy to see a good check for differences between the sample individuals.
    Last edited by Seabass; 07-11-2019 at 02:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    Now I will try to address the question of Berbers. I added up Mozabite, Guanche and our Tunisian Chen samples. Mozabite is clearly preferred and improves the fit for Egyptians

     

    But what about the our Levantine samples? How it beaves when these 3 North African populations are added.
     



    Some of you wonder what all these have to do with Jews. First of all, any person with scientific background knows that any results without controls doesn't mean anything. Controls can be negative and positive controls, in this case the variance about the individual samples show clear pattern about basic components of MENA populations. I think this is not by chance. Now using this panel, i will try to address the composition of jewish populations in G25 database.

    First, for the Western Jews, as you can immediately see the fits are not great because it is missing an important component from Europe. Second it is clear that Guanche and some Chen are preferred over Mozabite. This is clearly different from all the Egyptian and some palestinian samples. Third, Greek Central Anatolian has the biggest component whereas there is no affinity for Armenian/Greek Trabzon which IMO shows that Greek Central Anatolian is the proxy for the local anatolian populations. however this clean , clear cut but low fit picture collapses when we add different european populations

     

    Last edited by eolien; 07-11-2019 at 01:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    Some of you wonder what all these have to do with Jews. First of all, any person with scientific background knows that any results without controls doesn't mean anything. Controls can be negative and positive controls, in this case the variance about the individual samples show clear pattern about basic components of MENA populations. I think this is not by chance. Now using this panel, i will try to address the composition of jewish populations in G25 database.

    First, for the Western Jews, as you can immediately see the fits are not great because it is missing an important component from Europe. Second it is clear that Guanche and some Chen are preferred over Mozabite. This is clearly different from all the Egyptian and some palestinian samples. Third, Greek Central Anatolian has the biggest component whereas there is no affinity for Armenian/Greek Trabzon which IMO shows that Greek Central Anatolian is the proxy for the local anatolian populations. however this clean , clear cut but low fit picture collapses when we add different european populations

     

    First with Abruzzo as European population, the Samaritan gets lower or higher (I added some Levantine samples selected for having highest Samaritan component in their respective populations and some others). However it is striking that Ashkenazi have very low Samaritan.

     




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    continuing:
    Replacing Abruzzo with Maltese does not change much in our small Levantine panel, for Western jews it often worsens the fit and changes other components without affecting Samaritan per se much.

    Removing Armenian and Greek Trabzon from reference popuations and instead relying on Assyrian and Central Greek Anatolia for those Armenian/South Caucasian like components (as suggested above by Seabass), to my surprise does not change the fitness and cleans up the panel. See how poor the Ashkenazi score for Samaritan

     

    Last edited by eolien; 07-11-2019 at 02:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    continuing:
    Replacing Abruzzo with Maltese does not change much in our small Levantine panel, for Western jews it often worsens the fit and changes other components without affecting Samaritan per se much.

    Removing Armenian and Greek Trabzon from reference popuations and instead relying on Assyrian and Central Greek Anatolia for those Armenian/South Caucasian like components (as suggested above by Seabass), to my surprise does not change the fitness and cleans up the panel. See how poor the Ashkenazi score for Samaritan

     

    finally, the remaining Jewish samples for this panel

     


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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post


    To be fair I think you are a bit late to the party so to speak as a lot of these questions have been answered earlier in thread.
    According to 23andMe people of full Ashkenazim ancestry Owe there minor east Euro ancestry within the Modern Ashkenazim cluster to 14th/15th Century. This coincides with a short window period where documented marriages took place before being stopped by Christian Churches. (Erikl86 earlier shared the sources on this period)
    I went to the original post by him, searched a couple pages around it and didn't find it. Maybe I missed it - the thread is massive. Do you mind sharing it with me? I'm aware of what 23andMe says, nor am I contesting the idea. I simply want to read the source on such marriages and the Christian authorities' reaction to it. Also, 23andMe isn't subject to peer-review, nor as a private company, do they release enough info for others to judge their methods, but that's an aside.


    As for Romans.
    We know south Italians and Aegean Greeks cluster together because of Ancient Greek ancestry.
    There was recent study on Lazio Italian populations.
    In this study it showed that Roman Imperial period Roman Central Italians plotted like modern southern Italians.
    Only later After late antiquity either as a result of North Euro/Germanic invasions or influx of North Italians,Central Italians admixture levels changed and they went from plotting like modern South Italians to plotting like modern Central Italians.

    During Byzantine/Ostrogoth then Byzantine/Lombard controlled Italy there are various sources indicating Northward movements of Central Italian and South Italian Jews out of Byzantine controlled territories into North Italy prior to Charlemagne unifying France/Germany/North & Central Italy and inviting Italian Jews to settle back in France/Germany again as previously all Jews had been completely expulsed.
    I vaguely remember online discussion on that study. What does it matter when the suggested mixing with South Europeans happened after later antiquity? I'm also not confident that even the majority of Jewish migration to Northern Europe is owed to Charlemagne.
    Last edited by StillWater; 07-11-2019 at 04:49 PM.

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    Eolian, these models don't make any sense. You're using multiple populations with similar ancestries. This is why Ashkenazim, Iranian Jews, and many of the other individual samples get so little Samaritan. This isn't because they lack Levantine ancestry.

    Also, you can filter out outliers with the web app. I don't think using individual references from the same endogamous populations is useful when they vary so dramatically.
    Last edited by jonahst; 07-11-2019 at 04:40 PM.

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