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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I actually don't think that Romaniote and Italian Jews have absorbed much European ancestry that late, because in both places Christianity was the official religion by that time.
    Italian Jews might have managed to get additional North Italian admixture during Arian Lombard rule which permitted Chalcedonian Christian slaves for a while before adopting it themselves, but I can't see any Greeks in 9th century Byzantine Empire converting to Judaism.

    Ashkenazi Jews managed to get additional North European admixture most likely because of a rare coincidence of the Reformation which was an event which shakened the beliefs of Christians and the relative tolerance that Jews enjoyed in the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth. So it's not like this was always happening.

    In fact, the possibility that Mizrahi Babylonian Jews settled and mixed with Western Jews during the Geonic period, makes it more possible that both Romaniote AND Italki Jews have actually became MORE Levantine/Near Eastern.
    Maybe they did become more Levantine.
    I was reading those two links regarding the split of Western & Eastern Judaism (and this kinda links to the Geonic period you mention.. Before the rise of Rabbinical Judaism in the West (Geonic Period) those Articles paint an interesting picture of Western Judaism in both Western & Southern Europe.
    Biblical Judaism prior to Rabbinical basically Just like Christianity but without Jesus or the New Testament.
    Says these Jews had no particular language associated with recent Levant origins.
    Basically Followers of Old Testament with some Basic Hebrew signs and phrases used & passed down.
    Mentioned how Jews and Christians (at least with regards to its example in Spain prior to Vandals Kingdom) got on and lived amongst each other/mixed marriages occurred.
    Related how this Old Roman Empire style of Basic Biblical Judaism was not seen as a threat,that if anything they were commended for following Old Testament and kind of pitied by the Christians but were also a confirmation for Christians to the legitimacy of were Christianity had come from.
    Says was only with rise of Rabbinical Judaism/Torah etc that Judaism becomes a threat and Western Judaism and populations become alienated.
    So if Rabbinical Judaism corresponds to Geonic period which is 500AD onward it’s fare to say upto this period all western Jewish populations would of been taking on local Admixture? No?
    So take italy for example knowing what we know about Admixture of Italians around 500AD plotting a lot more like Southern Italians with a range perhaps ending in Cypriots.
    Western Jews of this time in Italy may have been no different Admixture wise from Average Italian range just with dominant Y DNA of there Levantine origins?
    Further waves of Jews coming out Byzantine Empire post 500 AD would be Rabbinical more Levantine I guess?
    Last edited by Claudio; 07-11-2019 at 10:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    Which populations have same ancestry? I don't understand the remark. Every population has some common ancestry since we all come from Africa. The difference is the time point and if nmonte prefers an assyrian sample over a samaritan, it has a reason for that choice. The web nMonte chooses individuals from the reference populations. Therefore when an armenian is chosen on top of assyrian, it means it is catching something that assyrians don't have such as real south caucasian.





    As you see above in this panel of populations especially the Ashkenazi score very low Samaritan but also have worse fit. Therefore as I reported below I added German and Polish to the panel. Surprisingly the fit greatly improved the Ashkenazi samples and increased their Samaritan and lowered their Abruzzo. Higher Polish component is also associated with the Eastern ashkenazi samples. It is more encouraging that Romaniotes don't have any German but more difficult to explain that some Mizrachi and North Africans do have.


     





    I think the real proof would be when we have Christian Palestinians samples from Galilee and West Bank, and run them in comparison to Lebanese samples and to Cypriotes. I expect a higher affinity of the former to Samaritans.

    I should also try Iranian and Iraqi Jews with some Persians to increase the fitness.
    Actually on G25 Palestinian Christians are closer to Lebanese specially Roman and Medieval Era Lebanese. On gedmatch we tend to be closer to Samaritans though.
    But of course there are still variations like any other population. My father tends to cluster with Lebanese even on most gedmatch calculators.
    Here are my parents coordinates. Feel free to use them. I don't mind.
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Gy8...ew?usp=sharing

    Here is a pca that Aga made me which includes my parents.
    Parents pca.png
    Last edited by Iseid0441; 07-12-2019 at 12:15 AM.

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    Rabbinic Judaism is the Judaism of the Mishnaic period (ca. 200 b.c.e. To 200c.e.) to today. The basic outlines were in place even earlier during the Babylonian exile.The Mishnah was first written/redacted by Rebbi(Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi) in approximately 200 C.e., i.e. late Roman period, but the Mishnayot were Oral for a long time before that. The term מישניות Mishnayot means memorized, repeated. Any observant Jew of today would already recognize the practices in the time of Rebbi. When you study the Talmud you are in a very recognizable world, with marriage and family life, commerce, relationships between classes, Jews and non-Jews, unpredictable government, technology, etc. This is in great contrast to the sense in the Biblical literature, which evokes a world of heroes and miracles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Assyrians and BedouinA both have substantial Levantine, BedouinB probably overlaps with Levantines, and Samaritans underwent an extreme bottleneck (Lebanese Christians provide the best modern Levantine proxy for Western Jews). Why include Mozabite, Tunisian Berber, and Guanche? And Ashkenazim are not 25% German, and this inflation is clear since almost every group has individuals with substantial "German" ancestry in these models.

    The extreme variation in proportions for individuals from the same endogamous population should be a red flag.
    I read your reply again but still have not understood what you meant with the term Levantine, you mean a special reference to such as Levantine Bronze Age/Sidon?

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post

    because of what you see in the code output after?
    First I have read it somewhere but cannot find it now, Second see here, there is a different window box between average and populations,
     


    Third I can recapitulate the results by using individual references instead (usually 1 or 2 reference sample is chosen out of the group).

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Then why didn't you stop when the Lebanese samples began to show untenably low levels of Levantine ancestry?
    Could you refer to a specific graph? Because most of the lebanese and jordanian druze samples show quite high Samaritan actually. What i am trying to find out is not numbers in absolute terms but how different populations samples differ from each other.

    Historically Lebanon was a refugee for christians and other heretic sects. When Cilicia was conquered by Muslims it is naive to think that none of the Armenians moved to the south. Moreover we don't know if the Christian Lebanese samples comprise all the sects. I am not even talking about how all the Christian Arab tribes ended up settling in the Levant.

    However I expect that Christian Palestinians would have much less Bedouin component than the Palestinian samples in G25 database and hopefully also higher Samaritan than the Lebanese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    I read your reply again but still have not understood what you meant with the term Levantine, you mean a special reference to such as Levantine Bronze Age/Sidon?
    Yes, and later populations that inhabited the Levant exclusively such as Lebanese Christians. The Assyrian and Bedouin samples have clear non-Levantine origins or associations from the relatively recent past.

    The Lebanese Christian samples in G25 are the closest modern population to the Roman-era Levantine samples we have. Samaritans are closest to Bronze Age Levantines.

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    Found this interesting:
    2A0D88A6-5551-437F-B61E-E5458DEAC2B5.png
    DA6B3E35-D851-4FC2-AD63-B9A95734BB33.png
    3389A7EE-E06C-4059-A737-2E2CEA0BB693.png
    18A7A073-3522-47F8-B954-08134A67D9FD.png
    2697ACB8-9494-4E04-A244-AB170ABB8389.png
    With regards to Jews within the Italian Peninsula..
    Does anyone know when Western Jews stopped naming themselves in this fashion?
    When did Western Jews start using the “Ben” term?
    As in “Ben Nathan” “Ben Kalonymus” etc?
    Anyone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    With regards to Jews within the Italian Peninsula..
    Does anyone know when Western Jews stopped naming themselves in this fashion?
    When did Western Jews start using the “Ben” term?
    As in “Ben Nathan” “Ben Kalonymus” etc?
    Anyone?
    For religious purposes this sort of naming was used all the time. So we should not be shocked to see this sort of naming in a Jewish grave of any time.
    Last edited by artemv; 07-12-2019 at 11:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    For religious purposes this sort of naming was used all the time. So we should not be shocked to see this sort of naming in a Jewish grave of any time.
    Yes but what I mean is that when reading about Jewish life in Italy late antiquity we see names of Jews coming to Italy with Near Eastern sounding names,whilst simultaneously local Jews all seem to now be “Ben” this “Ben” that with no longer names like the Roman ones in Article above.
    I wondered if the naming changes may have been a result of change come about from Western Judaism going from a traditional Hellenistic form of Judaism in Roman Times to the introduction of Rabbinical Judaism in the West in 500/600AD + ?
    Last edited by Claudio; 07-12-2019 at 12:09 PM.

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