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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I actually don't think that Romaniote and Italian Jews have absorbed much European ancestry that late, because in both places Christianity was the official religion by that time.
    Italian Jews might have managed to get additional North Italian admixture during Arian Lombard rule which permitted Chalcedonian Christian slaves for a while before adopting it themselves, but I can't see any Greeks in 9th century Byzantine Empire converting to Judaism.

    Ashkenazi Jews managed to get additional North European admixture most likely because of a rare coincidence of the Reformation which was an event which shakened the beliefs of Christians and the relative tolerance that Jews enjoyed in the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth. So it's not like this was always happening.

    In fact, the possibility that Mizrahi Babylonian Jews settled and mixed with Western Jews during the Geonic period, makes it more possible that both Romaniote AND Italki Jews have actually became MORE Levantine/Near Eastern.
    Ok Eric.
    But then this still doesn’t answer the original question:
    How can you model full Ashkenazim as 75% Italkim or 85% Romaniote (with remainder being South/North/East Euro) but still have Ashkenazim scoring same amount of Levantine Admixture as these same Italkim & Romaniotes??
    Last edited by Claudio; 07-12-2019 at 12:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Yes but what I mean is that when reading about Jewish life in Italy late antiquity we see names of Jews coming to Italy with Near Eastern sounding names,whilst simultaneously local Jews all seem to now be “Ben” this “Ben” that with no longer names like the Roman ones in Article above.
    I wondered if the naming changes may have been a result of change come about from Western Judaism going from a traditional Hellenistic form of Judaism in Roman Times to the introduction of Rabbinical Judaism in the West in 500/600AD + ?
    There never was a viable Hellenistic Judaism which survived. Rabbinic Judaism was the organic Oral מסורה Mesorah which was the actual continuous practice. It was brought to Greece and Rome and continued to develop there as it did in Israel and Babylon/Persia.Honi’s alternate Temple in Alexandria, Philo’s Hellenized Judaism, Jewish Christians, Essenes etc, were curious historical dead ends , perhaps like Shakers and Quakers in US and UK. Mainstream Rabbinic Judaism , the פרושים, Perushim, maintained the acceptable degree of Hellenistic influence and their authority was accepted by the ancestors of all Jews alive today( with the Karaite heresy only occurring in the Arab period in the 8th century). There was not a switch over to mainstream Judaism, it was the norm. The extreme assimilationist Hellenized Jews were the historical dead end, just as were the small group of Jewish Christians who abandoned the wide consensus of Jewish revolt , abandoned the struggle and Israel, and fled to Trans-Jordan where they assimilated into gentile Christianity and disappeared. There never was a large mainstream group of alternative Jews that opposed Rabbinic practice and which survived as Jews, again except for the example of Karaism. The various Hellenistic heresies are interesting academically but irrelevant to Jewish Oral Tradition, except as an example of what not to do. Jews do not view Christianity as a Jewish alternative,rather as a separate new religion, as in its most basic evolution it departed profoundly and immediately from the most liberal boundaries of Jewish practice and belief.On the other hand , Greek names and Greek Language remained in vogue even among the pious, and the Talmud describes this in detail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    First I have read it somewhere but cannot find it now, Second see here, there is a different window box between average and populations,
     


    Third I can recapitulate the results by using individual references instead (usually 1 or 2 reference sample is chosen out of the group).
    Yes, you can use individuals as references. How does this follow?

    The web nMonte chooses individuals from the reference populations. Therefore when an armenian is chosen on top of assyrian, it means it is catching something that assyrians don't have such as real south caucasian.
    The way you wrote it as if nMonte first models your test population on the individuals in each of the reference populations you've selected and then maps that to a weight for that reference population. That's not how nMonte works, at least no from the code used manually. And even if it did, I don't see how it would imply what you're saying. I also suggest you create a separate thread for this now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    Could you refer to a specific graph? Because most of the lebanese and jordanian druze samples show quite high Samaritan actually. What i am trying to find out is not numbers in absolute terms but how different populations samples differ from each other.

    Historically Lebanon was a refugee for christians and other heretic sects. When Cilicia was conquered by Muslims it is naive to think that none of the Armenians moved to the south. Moreover we don't know if the Christian Lebanese samples comprise all the sects. I am not even talking about how all the Christian Arab tribes ended up settling in the Levant.

    However I expect that Christian Palestinians would have much less Bedouin component than the Palestinian samples in G25 database and hopefully also higher Samaritan than the Lebanese.
    https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S...297(17)30276-8

    They came out as about 93% BA Canaanite, while your models had them at around 40%. Now, if you don't accept the study, or are trying to model pre-BA Levantine descent in all of these groups, then that's even more reason to use ancient groups as references.
    Last edited by StillWater; 07-12-2019 at 03:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Can we get safe, but reasonably tight lower and upper bounds on Berber ancestry for these groups? Using SSA may be a good idea, as a proxy, whereby it's some % of the Berber input. SSA is easier to separate from other components.
    Unfortunately my questions got lost. Can we answer this at least for Ashkenazim? I'm really curious. Is 0 in that range? Is this: https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1001373
    related to the suggested Berber ancestry in all Western Jews or is that study entirely outdated?

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    As for Balto-Slavic input into Jews, this is what I could find:



    Can anyone here find the sources in bibliography? My Hebrew sucks and I don't speak German. I hope that something resembling a primary source is found there. Or, if you have a primary source on hand, please share already. I refuse to believe that I'm not the greediest Jew here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    As for Balto-Slavic input into Jews, this is what I could find:



    Can anyone here find the sources in bibliography? My Hebrew sucks and I don't speak German. I hope that something resembling a primary source is found there. Or, if you have a primary source on hand, please share already. I refuse to believe that I'm not the greediest Jew here.
    I can’t verify the source material, but this scenario was novelized/romanticized by the 20th century Jewish author I.B. Singer in his novel “The Slave” which I highly recommend.Singer was the son of an Av Beit-Din (chief Rabbinical Judge) in the main Jewish Court in Warsaw and came to the U S as a young adult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Targum View Post
    I can’t verify the source material, but this scenario was novelized/romanticized by the 20th century Jewish author I.B. Singer in his novel “The Slave” which I highly recommend.Singer was the son of an Av Beit-Din (chief Rabbinical Judge) in the main Jewish Court in Warsaw and came to the U S as a young adult.
    I'm fairly confident such an event happened at least a few times. If it was rare, its rarity would've made it stand out in Jewish history enough to eventually be romanticized, especially amidst the harsh conditions for such converts. The only academic source I could find with mention to a Polish woman converting, was of her being executed for doing so. Primary sources would be useful to gauge if such an event was sufficiently common to explain the proposed range of East Euro input in Ashkenazim. Would also be fun as fuck to read.
    Last edited by StillWater; 07-12-2019 at 04:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    I'm fairly confident such an event happened at least a few times. If it was rare, its rarity would've made it stand out in Jewish history enough to eventually be romanticized, especially amidst the harsh conditions for such converts. The only academic source I could find with mention to a Polish woman converting, was of her being executed for doing so. Primary sources would be useful to gauge if such an event was sufficiently common to explain the proposed range of East Euro input in Ashkenazim. Would also be fun as fuck to read.
    This is from a later period, and the source may obviously be biased (based on the painter's bio, he was almost surely not a witness to this event), but I can't imagine either communities welcomed such events (in this case, leaving Judaism for marriage):

     


    Painter: Mykola Pymonenko(1862-1912)

    Painting: "A Victim of Fanaticism"

    Description from wiki: The painting tells a story about the real incident - punishment by the Jewish community in Kremenets in Ukraine (now Ternopil Province) of a Jewish girl for her relationship with an Orthodox boy and her transition to Christianity. She wears a cross on her neck.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Found this interesting:
    Attachment 31648
    Attachment 31649
    Attachment 31650
    Attachment 31651
    Attachment 31652
    With regards to Jews within the Italian Peninsula..
    Does anyone know when Western Jews stopped naming themselves in this fashion?
    When did Western Jews start using the “Ben” term?
    As in “Ben Nathan” “Ben Kalonymus” etc?
    Anyone?
    One of them says that Jews no longer name after living ancestors, yet Sephardim do.

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