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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #6941
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Thank you Agamemnon. This puts everything into context, which is why I objected to the absolutist and categorical term 'Hellenized Armenians'. I have never said that Pontian Greeks are not more west Asian or Caucasus shifted- the key is often to be found in geography. Just like the fact that I don't dispute the fact that Cypriot Greeks are more Levantine shifted than Aegean Greeks. Again geography speaks for itself. I also prefer carefully chosen words which reflect the complexity of ancestral origins. And you have been spot on in terms of the manner in which you have articulated this
    I would argue that Pontic Greeks are not 'Caucasus-shifted Greeks' either though... they are mostly of native Caucasian descent, with an Aegean Greek minor/secondary component which brought their language and identity, also keeping in mind some of them may have become Hellenized later.

    "Greeks of Caucasus descent" works better in my opinion.

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  3. #6942
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleach View Post
    I misspoke
    My purpose was to reply to Seabass who said :

    "this may more likely suggest it was acquired by Levantines in the Iron Age as opposed to say later genoim Mizrahi admixture (which lacks steppe)"

    I meant that IRAN IA shared by all Western Jews was additional to
    Levant LBN Roman (which already contains it we agree), and that means it was acquired elsewhere than Levant, otherwise we would not need to add Hasanlu IA and Hajji Firuz IA to Levant LBN Roman when we modelize Western Jews, wich always gives us far better distances.

    That said , Iran IA admixture for Samaritans is much lower than Lebanese Chrisitan and Roman Lebanese

    First of all, the fit score for an average sample is misleading and is methodically wrong. In your example above each individual lebanese christian will have within a fit score range of 2.1-2.7. The average creates a fictive average coordinate which is problematic if the sample individuals are not close to each other.



    In any case it seems you are not worried about poor fit scores of the western jewish samples. Without any european or berber reference population, the fit range of your example above will be 3.43-4.98 for Italian Jews and 3.39-4.5 for Sephardic Jews. This is important because depending which european population you choose, the Iran IA component will change since all the farmer populations comprise an Iranian component.

    To avoid going into too much detail I will give only the results of me and 2 palestininan christians using your reference panel:


    In my previous runs with all kind of possible combinations Abruzzo came out as the best Italian population for me (1) vs (2)







    I still think it is better to let nMonte choose best invidual samples from the populations (in this case especially the Abruzzo ones) with a 25% filter (3)




    I know some of you dislike use of a modern population (4)



    And some of you are big fan of Empuries2. However for myself adding them on top Collegno does not change much the fitness. (5) vs (6)





    Therefore the model with the least populations for me would be this (although Mycenean does not sound right to me)

    w/ Myceneans (7)


    w/o Myceneans (8)


    and Empuries2 compensating for the lack of Myceneans (9)


    the biggest game changer seems to be the North African/Berber proxy. See how fitness and other components change when i add Berber Chen (10):
    Perhaps a good example of over-fitting but without a clear alternative at the moment.



    I also want to share with you how the Abruzzo behave in this panel. See how different they are from each other which is an indication for the uselessness of averages in such populations (11).



    in G25 PCA map, Maltese population was closest to my sample. I can confirm it below, see how similar are the first 4 Maltese with me (12).

    Last edited by eolien; 08-13-2019 at 03:09 PM.

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  5. #6943
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    [1] "distance%=5.5169 / distance=0.055169"


    Ioannis_scaled
    "Armenia_ChL" 75.1
    "Minoan_Lasithi" 24.9
    "Mycenaean" 0
    "Boncuklu_N" 0
    "Altai_IA" 0

    [1] "distance%=18.7041 / distance=0.187041"


    Ioannis_scaled
    "Boncuklu_N" 37
    "CHG" 35.75
    "Natufian" 21.5
    "Ganj_Dareh_N" 5.75
    "EHG" 0
    "Villabruna" 0
    "Bonda" 0
    "West_Siberia_N" 0
    "Lokomotiv_N" 0
    "AfontovaGora3" 0


    Some of My G25

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    I took a big interest in the sample Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE_I3808 from the Olalde (2019) Iberia paper the moment it was available in G25. Moroccan Jews are funnily enough closer to this sample then to Romaniote Jews. I initially was excited thinking this sample could represent a pre-1492 Iberian Jew, but likely it's a Morisco that seems half Indigenous Iberian and half predominantly Arab with some Berber. In the analysis below it did not want to register any Greek or Italian-like ancestry. The British Roman Outlier is presumeably more likely from somewhere in Egypt, though Jordan is possible.

    [1] "distance%=2.5364"

    Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE_I3808

    Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,46.2
    Levant_LBN_MA_NE,22.4
    England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o,20.6
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,10.8
    I decided to use this Morisco and regular Iberians to suss out the other origins of Western Jews away from the East-Mediterranean, along with Collegno 23(North Italian-like) and Collegno 121. (Southern Italian-like) I think based off the results below if you compare those of Southern Italians with Italian Jews, it's likely the G25 Italian Jews certainly are Sephardic descended even if Italqi too.

    One could assume Sephardic Jews were probably more inclined to mix with the Moors (if they even did to a considerable extent?) as opposed to Visigoths. Moroccan Jews may also have a Morisco connection, but I'm in no position to assert that.

    The results of Eastern Sephardic Jews might seem contradictory, but I believe Iberian admixture is likely still present, but just small. 'Seabass mum' from Turkey for example scores some Iberian. As I think Bleach or another North African Jewish member suggested, Moroccan Jews show subtle variation among each other depending on the region they are from. Well its a small possibility this could apply for say 16th and 17th century Romaniotes from Greece and Asia Minor. Over half the Romaniote quarters for example in 17th century Istanbul were comprising of people from emigrees from elsewhere in Asian Minor as opposed to Greece. This may partly explain the confusing results of Turkish Jews, who also descend to a much lesser extent from Italqim and Ashkenazi Jews.


    [1] "distance%=1.639"

    Italian_South

    Romaniote_Jew,47.8
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL23,27.2
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL121,21.6
    Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,3.4

    [1] "distance%=0.7785"

    Italian_Jew

    Romaniote_Jew,72.6
    Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE_I3808,12.2
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL121,10.2
    Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,2.6
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL23,2.4

    [1] "distance%=1.0798"

    Sephardic_Jew

    Romaniote_Jew,82.6
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL23,8
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL121,6.2
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,3.2

    [1] "distance%=2.3164"

    Seabass Mum

    Romaniote_Jew,78.8
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL121,13.4
    Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,4.2
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,3.6

    [1] "distance%=1.4521"

    Moroccan_Jew

    Romaniote_Jew,51.2
    Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE_I3808,27.2
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,12
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL121,9.6
    Last edited by Seabass; 08-13-2019 at 02:26 PM.

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  9. #6945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    [1] "distance%=5.5169 / distance=0.055169"


    Ioannis_scaled
    "Armenia_ChL" 75.1
    "Minoan_Lasithi" 24.9
    "Mycenaean" 0
    "Boncuklu_N" 0
    "Altai_IA" 0

    [1] "distance%=18.7041 / distance=0.187041"


    Ioannis_scaled
    "Boncuklu_N" 37
    "CHG" 35.75
    "Natufian" 21.5
    "Ganj_Dareh_N" 5.75
    "EHG" 0
    "Villabruna" 0
    "Bonda" 0
    "West_Siberia_N" 0
    "Lokomotiv_N" 0
    "AfontovaGora3" 0


    Some of My G25
    [1] "distance%=3.0172 / distance=0.030172"


    Ioannis_scaled
    "Greek_Trabzon" 78.95
    "Cypriot" 21.05
    "Greek" 0
    "Greek_Central_Anatolia" 0
    "Greek_Crete" 0

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  11. #6946
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Italian_Jew

    Romaniote_Jew,72.6
    Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE_I3808,12.2
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL121,10.2
    Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,2.6
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL23,2.4

    [1] "distance%=1.0798"

    Sephardic_Jew

    Romaniote_Jew,82.6
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL23,8
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL121,6.2
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,3.2

    [1] "distance%=2.3164"

    Seabass Mum

    Romaniote_Jew,78.8
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL121,13.4
    Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,4.2
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,3.6

    [1] "distance%=1.4521"
    with 25% filter and pen=0

    Eolien

    Romaniote_Jew,67.5
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL121,23.3
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL23,4.2
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,5
    Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,0
    Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE_I3808,0

    [1] "distance%=1.4217

    on the other hand, if i let nMonte choose from all the Collegno samples

    Romaniote_Jew,70.8
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL121,19.2
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL151,2.5
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL145,1.7
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL23,0
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,5.8
    Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,0
    Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE_I3808,0

    [1] "distance%=1.3498

    and if i add all the Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE samples on top of these 3 Collegno samples,

    Romaniote_Jew,66.7
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL121,16.7
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL151,0.8
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL145,0.8
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL23,0
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,2.5
    Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,0
    Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE_I7499,9.2
    Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE_I7424,3.3

    [1] "distance%=1.3153

    whatever this means
    Last edited by eolien; 08-13-2019 at 03:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    with 25% filter and pen=0

    Eolien

    [1] "distance%=1.3498

    and if i add all the Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE samples on top of these 3 Collegno samples,

    Romaniote_Jew,66.7
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL121,16.7
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL151,0.8
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL145,0.8
    ITA_Collegno_MA_CL23,0
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,2.5
    Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,0
    Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE_I7499,9.2
    Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE_I7424,3.3

    [1] "distance%=1.3153

    whatever this means
    The sample in red is another Morisco, more or less 50% Iberian and 50% Arab with some Berber. Also explains the Berber Tunisia result of yours halving.

    South Italian-like CL121 (Hellenic Roman?) is pretty persistent in all Western Jews. The Cretan-like Collegno Outliers (likely Griko Calabrians near 400-800 AD) also seem relevant in some way for now in trying to make sense of Western Jews too.
    Last edited by Seabass; 08-13-2019 at 03:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    First of all, the fit score for an average sample is misleading and is methodically wrong. In your example above each individual lebanese christian will have within a fit score range of 2.1-2.7. The average creates a fictive average coordinate which is problematic if the sample individuals are not close to each other.



    In any case it seems you are not worried about poor fit scores of the western jewish samples. Without any european or berber reference population, the fit range of your example above will be 3.43-4.98 for Italian Jews and 3.39-4.5 for Sephardic Jews. This is important because depending which european population you choose, the Iran IA component will change since all the farmer populations comprise an Iranian component.

    To avoid going into too much detail I will give only the results of me and 2 palestininan christians using your reference panel:


    In my previous runs with all kind of possible combinations Abruzzo came out as the best Italian population for me (1) vs (2)
    ]
    Well you seem to have an expert knowledge of statistics, it's great and I hope you 'll teach me more because at first glance I would say your reasoning is totally nonsensical.
    So, I think an averaged sample has the benefit to catch the whole variability within a population unlike individuals.
    Moreover each individual does not fairly inherit the same ancestry proportions or coordinates than its related ethnic members, and even its own siblings.
    My own goal has always been to find out the averaged ancestry proportions that made up an ethnic group and not those of Eli Cohen from Istanbul or Tunis in particular
    If it was "methodolically" wrong , so why would have the creator left this option available ? all the more we have the ability
    to filter out deviating group individuals

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    [1] "distance%=5.5169 / distance=0.055169"


    Ioannis_scaled
    "Armenia_ChL" 75.1
    "Minoan_Lasithi" 24.9
    "Mycenaean" 0
    "Boncuklu_N" 0
    "Altai_IA" 0

    [1] "distance%=18.7041 / distance=0.187041"


    Ioannis_scaled
    "Boncuklu_N" 37
    "CHG" 35.75
    "Natufian" 21.5
    "Ganj_Dareh_N" 5.75
    "EHG" 0
    "Villabruna" 0
    "Bonda" 0
    "West_Siberia_N" 0
    "Lokomotiv_N" 0
    "AfontovaGora3" 0


    Some of My G25
    Any chance of you posting your Europe K36 similarity map? And does the 83% represent Assyrian Christians? Thanks.

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  19. #6950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Any chance of you posting your Europe K36 similarity map? And does the 83% represent Assyrian Christians? Thanks.
    2019-08-13 05_31_50-Taux de Similitude - Comodo Dragon-1.png

    Yes Its Assyrians. I have lower Armenian clushter Btw..

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