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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #6981
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Again, I'm not arguing narratives right now. I simply explained to you that the standard narrative doesn't hinge on the exodus from the Heraclian revolt.

    Why even dig into that study when it's not the only source for it? You even previously alluded to 23andMe's model. (It's practically the same).

    I know of no other study source which gives 35-50 generations ago for Admixture event with Southern Europeans.

    23andMe do not allude to an event time.

    They just state this:
    FD43CCE0-1EAA-467C-8A00-94C31146E672.jpeg

    And show this:
    A4A195EE-52B1-43CD-8456-6E681EA55136.jpeg

  2. #6982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    I know of no other study source which gives 35-50 generations ago for Admixture event with Southern Europeans.

    23andMe do not allude to an event time.

    They just state this:
    FD43CCE0-1EAA-467C-8A00-94C31146E672.jpeg

    And show this:
    A4A195EE-52B1-43CD-8456-6E681EA55136.jpeg
    If you look at the graphic, the South Euro-Judean funfest begins 1000 years ago.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Also, why Malta? And suppose we do find a Roman era Jew there. According to the Aegean narrative, any 2 given Jews during that period could've differed massively, by being the offspring of different admixtures. One could've been born to an Aegean mother, the other to a Berber woman. Doesn't that narrative hinge on eventual mixing of such Jews, to get roughly uniform levels of admixtures and further uniformity in Ashkenazim from the bottle neck? However, if you mean this Jew would be from some early time in the Roman era, before any of us here suggest such mixing would've occurred, then that will be one of the most massive events in Jewish history.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristin.../#7ecd8a23f9eb

    As modern excavations and analyses have gone forward, Mercieca-Spiteri has worked with the modern Jewish community on Malta to balance archaeological research with religious ethics.
    In 2010, representatives of international Jewish communities protested in order to convince the Maltese government not to allow human bones in the catacombs to be interfered with. Whereas Heritage Malta wished to examine and record every bone, the Jewish community objected. Eventually, a compromise was reached in which archaeologists could study the bones and the remains would be reinterred per Jewish tradition.
    Seems like our best shot at ancient Jewish remains in the near future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Even the assimilated, argued to be a traitor by some, Josephus Flavius consistently married ethnic Jews, even if he had to go far for them. The first one, Vespasian had to arrange for him - she was a captured Judean. Then, it was an Alexandrian Jewish woman. That's Egypt. And he found the final one in Crete. Meanwhile, I won't even use JDate.

    Also, why Malta? And suppose we do find a Roman era Jew there. According to the Aegean narrative, any 2 given Jews during that period could've differed massively, by being the offspring of different admixtures. One could've been born to an Aegean mother, the other to a Berber woman. Doesn't that narrative greatly rely on eventual mixing of such Jews, to get roughly uniform levels of admixtures and further uniformity in Ashkenazim from the bottle neck? However, if you mean this Jew would be from some early time in the Roman era, before any of us here suggest such mixing would've occurred, then that will be one of the most massive events in Jewish history.
    Josephus is a bad example.
    If I remember correctly Hellenistic Jews living both inside Judean but mostly outside Judea in the east Mediterranean communities we’ve highlighted in the past spoke Greek.
    Where as Judea locals spoke Aramaic.
    Josephus was Levantine Jew and states Aramaic as his and his people’s language.
    So he may have been strict on having only Judean wives but this was not necessarily problem for Hellenistic Western diaspora.
    Last edited by Claudio; 08-14-2019 at 01:52 AM.

  7. #6985
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Josephus is a bad example.
    If I remember correctly Hellenistic Jews living both inside Judean but mostly outside Judea in the east Mediterranean communities we’ve highlighted in the past spoke Greek.
    Where as Judean locals spoke Aramaic.
    Josephus was Levantine Jew and states Aramaic as his and his people’s language.
    So he may have been strict on having only Judean wives but this was not problem for Hellenistic Western diaspora.
    Josephus was patriotic to Rome. His writings are biased towards Rome. He wrote in Greek. He died in Rome. Earlier in the thread, we did contrast Western Jews being Hellenized, unlike Eastern Jews, but splitting those a swim away? Israel is right there in the middle of the network of East Med Jewish communities we keep reposting. Suggesting that Josephus was more traditional than the average East Med Jew, given his actions and writings, is a stretch.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Even the assimilated, argued to be a traitor by some, Josephus Flavius consistently married ethnic Jews, even if he had to go far for them. The first one, Vespasian had to arrange for him - she was a captured Judean. Then, it was an Alexandrian Jewish woman. That's Egypt. And he found the final one in Crete. Meanwhile, I won't even use JDate.

    Also, why Malta? And suppose we do find a Roman era Jew there. According to the Aegean narrative, any 2 given Jews during that period could've differed massively, by being the offspring of different admixtures. One could've been born to an Aegean mother, the other to a Berber woman. Doesn't that narrative greatly rely on eventual mixing of such Jews, to get roughly uniform levels of admixtures and further uniformity in Ashkenazim from the bottle neck? However, if you mean this Jew would be from some early time in the Roman era, before any of us here suggest such mixing would've occurred, then that will be one of the most massive events in Jewish history.
    Lol contact me privately. I still have the phone numbers of the several שדכנים shadkhanim (professional matchmakers) we used for our children 2004-2011. They have clients of all types on the religio-cultural spectrum and they earn their fee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Josephus is a bad example.
    If I remember correctly Hellenistic Jews living both inside Judean but mostly outside Judea in the east Mediterranean communities we’ve highlighted in the past spoke Greek.
    Where as Judea locals spoke Aramaic.
    Josephus was Levantine Jew and states Aramaic as his and his people’s language.
    So he may have been strict on having only Judean wives but this was not necessarily problem for Hellenistic Western diaspora.
    Correction: Aramaic and Hebrew. Spoken Hebrew was maintained into the Ge’onic (early Islamic) period, contrary to beliefs disseminated by anti-Jewish non-Jewish academics. This is testified in the Responsa Literature as well as in the formation of the late Medieval vernaculars like Yiddish and Ladino, but also Judeo-Arabic (Separate regional iterations), Judeo-Persian, Judeo-Greek(Yevanic), and ironically Kurdistan Jewish Neo-Aramaic. It goes without saying that Hebrew then, like today and in the last 1000 years, was used in its written form as the sole language of Responsa and Halakhic discourse. Today’s English speaking Jews (of which I am one) are the historical aberration,with their generally ridiculously low levels of Hebrew literacy.

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  13. #6988
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristin.../#7ecd8a23f9eb



    Seems like our best shot at ancient Jewish remains in the near future.

    Whatever happened to getting the DNA results of those 12th Century Jewish bodies found at the bottom of that Well in Norwich?
    Last edited by Claudio; 08-14-2019 at 04:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Whatever happened to getting the DNA results of those 12th Century Jewish bodies found in that well in Norwich?
    Or did they ever get a DNA sample from the Judean red hair?
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Josephus was patriotic to Rome. His writings are biased towards Rome. He wrote in Greek. He died in Rome. Earlier in the thread, we did contrast Western Jews being Hellenized, unlike Eastern Jews, but splitting those a swim away? Israel is right there in the middle of the network of East Med Jewish communities we keep reposting. Suggesting that Josephus was more traditional than the average East Med Jew, given his actions and writings, is a stretch.
    Actually, it isn't a stretch at all, and both you and Claudio are partially correct of your analysis of יוסף בן מתתיהו, aka Flavius Josephus.

    According to his own testimonials, he was a Cohen , and not just any Cohen, but a descendant of Cohens from the first משמר mishmar, the priestly divisions, of priests in the Jerusalem Temple. On his mother's side, he descend from the Hasmoneans. And while his credibility as an historical source is sometimes dubious considering him flipping sides during the Great Revolt, his ancestral heritage is actually something scholars take him as accurate (especially because of the way he describes his line, such as referring to one of his paternal ancestors as "the stutterer" which is something a person seeking mythological prestigious ancestry wouldn't do).

    He was also a Pharisee, not an Hellenist, and seem to have been a practicing Jew which did his best to abide to the Jewish laws, and he specifically praises, even in one of his latest works when was already a Flavian for decades living in Rome - "The Life of Flavius Josephus" - the righteousness of the Pharisee sages he went to Rome to give supporting testimony for back when he was merely 26 (he mentions favorably in his work how they ate only nuts on their voyage to Rome to avoid eating non-Kosher food).

    In my opinion, there's also sufficient information in his own testimonials to believe that before he switched sides, he also belonged to the pro-Zealot faction among Jews, despite his apparent never ending criticism of them in his (obviously biased, pro-Roman) works. The reason for this is his deep intimacy with the structure and leaders of all the members of the Zealots factions, as well as the fact that he was nominated by them to be the high commander of all armed forces of the Galilee during the Revolt in spite the fact he had no apparent military experience.

    As for his wives - while they were Jewish, nothing is said about their ethnic origin - and his wives from Alexandria and Crete could have been admixed , while still fully Jewish.

    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Even the assimilated, argued to be a traitor by some, Josephus Flavius consistently married ethnic Jews, even if he had to go far for them. The first one, Vespasian had to arrange for him - she was a captured Judean. Then, it was an Alexandrian Jewish woman. That's Egypt. And he found the final one in Crete. Meanwhile, I won't even use JDate.
    Josephus was argued and accused of being a traitor (and rightly so) by contemporary Jews of his own time - he himself attest to that that they saw him as a traitor, and even managed to physically attack him when he acted as a negotiator between the Romans and Zealots on behalf of the Romans during the siege of Jerusalem.
    While he was initially captured/surrendered (depends on which narrative you believe) as a POW, he then switched sides and de-facto was a traitor to his people. It's not just a narrative.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 08-14-2019 at 07:25 AM.
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