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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #7961
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    I see what you mean.

    But religious descendance aside.

    From an Autosomal point of view,Considering how big The Jewish Kingdom is under the Hasmonean’s then Roman Client State In Herodian Times the area’s and populations within the geographic Kingdom of Judea that has been absorbed into Jewish whole.

    I can’t see why the overall Hasmonean/Herodian era Jewish population Autosomally would not plot very much the same as the later Christian population that encompassed Syria Paelastina through Roman/Byzantine Times?
    And since Palestinian Christians are a modern descendant population of these Christian Roman/Byzantine Levantine populations they Should be a good proxy for the Hasmonean/Herodian era Levantine Jewish population.
    Oh of course, I agree, most likely the Levantine ancestors of Western Jews were pretty much genetically identical to other non-Jewish Levantines of the same era. This why, IMO, when we use the Roman-era Levantine samples to model Western Jews we get much better results than Levant BA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    But who were these Levantines? Phoenicians, Edomites, Moabites, etc.?
    These populations probably no longer identified themselves as such, but yeah, those Levantines descended from those populations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Oh of course, I agree, most likely the Levantine ancestors of Western Jews were pretty much genetically identical to other non-Jewish Levantines of the same era. This why, IMO, when we use the Roman-era Levantine samples to model Western Jews we get much better results than Levant BA.
    I understand using the Roman-era-Levantine samples (for obvious reasons) only drawback being that they are Roman era Lebanon rather than Roman era Paelastina.
    But have you attempted to model Western Jews with Palestinian Christian samples?
    Just to see how the various Jewish groups come out?
    I for one are at least curious
    Last edited by Claudio; 10-12-2019 at 04:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    I understand using the Roman-era-Levantine samples (for obvious reasons) only drawback being that they are Roman era Lebanon rather than Roman era Paelastina.
    But have you attempted to model Western Jews with Palestinian Christian samples?
    Just to see how the various Jewish groups come out?
    I for one are at least curious
    If anyone has several Melkite Palestinians or Rum Orthodox Palestinians in Global25, we can try to average them and try seeing how well they can be used as a Levantine proxy for Western Jews.

    Though honestly from what I've seen they plot somewhere between Samaritans and Christian Lebanese, with many overlapping with Christian Lebanese.

    And you know my own view of using modern populations to model admixture when I have good ancient ones (in the case of Levantines, I have EBA, MBA, LBA, IA1 and IA2 as well as Roman-era... I mean what more can one ask other than actual ancient Jewish samples).
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    For those who speculate that at least some Greek ancestry was acquired in the Hellenistic/Roman-era Levant by ancestral, pre-diasporan Western Jews, is it likely that this assimilation only took place in the cosmopolitan Jewish population versus the rural one?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    For those who speculate that at least some Greek ancestry was acquired in the Hellenistic/Roman-era Levant by ancestral, pre-diasporan Western Jews, is it likely that this assimilation only took place in the cosmopolitan Jewish population versus the rural one?
    I cannot say because I do not subscribe to the idea that Greek ancestry is predominant amongst Ashkenazim at least nor do I believe that if it is, it was acquired in the Levant. I think it was acquired in southern Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    If anyone has several Melkite Palestinians or Rum Orthodox Palestinians in Global25, we can try to average them and try seeing how well they can be used as a Levantine proxy for Western Jews.

    Though honestly from what I've seen they plot somewhere between Samaritans and Christian Lebanese, with many overlapping with Christian Lebanese.

    And you know my own view of using modern populations to model admixture when I have good ancient ones (in the case of Levantines, I have EBA, MBA, LBA, IA1 and IA2 as well as Roman-era... I mean what more can one ask other than actual ancient Jewish samples).
    Yeah I understand that Erik,but I think it’s still worth doing.

    You never know,using Palestinian Christians to model Western Jews,although it feels like a pointless exercise it might potentially reveal something we have missed? Or highlight a potential difference between different Western Jewish groups we didn’t notice using ancient samples?
    Either way it’s productive,whilst we await for the heavens to deliver the numerous ancient DNA samples we desperately need.
    Plus it beats being brought to the boredom level of a few pages back where we had been reduced to discussing Indian Romani Jews
    Last edited by Claudio; 10-12-2019 at 10:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Why is this?

    Are you suggesting Christian Palestinians might descend from other Canaanite peoples in the Levant who weren't Jews, such as Phoenicians, Edomites, Moabites etc?
    Syrians, first of all.
    At that time Phoenicians where already Hellenized culturally.

    A number of big cities in Roman times where 100% pagan or with pagan majority.
    Jerusalem (the city changed its name to Aelia Capitolina) shows no sign of Jewish presence in second century CE.
    All the cities of Decapolis had very little Jewish population, and were pagan - later Christian and never had Jewish majority in the CE.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapolis
    Caesarea, capital of Roman province Panestina, had a Jewish community - but never a Jewish majority.
    E.t.c.

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  17. #7969
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Syrians, first of all.
    At that time Phoenicians where already Hellenized culturally.

    A number of big cities in Roman times where 100% pagan or with pagan majority.
    Jerusalem (the city changed its name to Aelia Capitolina) shows no sign of Jewish presence in second century CE.
    All the cities of Decapolis had very little Jewish population, and were pagan - later Christian and never had Jewish majority in the CE.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapolis
    Caesarea, capital of Roman province Panestina, had a Jewish community - but never a Jewish majority.
    E.t.c.
    According to book I’m reading Many Levantine Jewish had become Christian by this point.
    But like you said still had a Jewish community this coincides with Judah ha-Nasi (Judah the Prince) period.
    Even almost four Centuries later during Heraclious Revolt there was still a Levantine Jewish population present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    Judea being 2-3 million? I guess you don't know how small historical Judea/Jehud was. The estimates are 25k in Iron age. I think all this figures in pre-modern estimates (esp. Greco-Roman ones) are needed to be divided at least by 10. You tend to take figueres of ancient historians literally.

    I also can assume that you don't find Jerusalem population of 600k in Roman times (Tacitus) credible. The size of ancient Rome is estimated around 400k, including slaves!. There are a lot of modern studies on population size and growth based on grain production etc. The population of whole Palestine seems never to have exceeded 1 million persons even in its peak in Byzantine times. Moreover, you seem to underestimate the effect of Assyrian deportations. Samaria and whole of Galilee were affected greatly and are thought to be sparsely populated afterwards.

    A remark on conversions: Again just read about Galilee.

    EDIT: about Jews in Egypt: recent estimates put the Greek population 5% of the population in Ptolemaic Egypt: 400k whereas older studies estimated 10% of the population.
    When I wrote Judea I meant all the territory under Herods control including Galilea, Idumea, Perea, Golan heights e.t.c.
    I didn't trust numbers form ancient historians. The 2.5 million is astimation from R. Bachi (1977). Yes, not so recent, but we shouldn't call this ancient either.

    Assyrian deportations happened 700 years before the evens we discuss. Now population of the region is about 13 million (Israel + Palestinian territories), although 200 years ago it was just above 200 thousand. As we see, even 200 years might be enough for population of some area to increase from 250 thousand to 13 million.

    I do not want to protect that number 2,5 million. But neither this number, nor estimation of 6 mln Jews in Roman Empire is an extreme overestimation.
    Might be total population of Judea was 1,5-2 million people, or total number of Jews in Roman Empire was not 6, but 3-4 million. That doesn't make 6 million an extreme exxagregation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    I'm skeptical. If you ask the average American what % of the US they think is Jewish, more think that they comprise over 5 percent than under. The reality is 1.7-2.6%, the latter of which represents a very liberal definition. Obviously, the historians back then were more knowledgeable about their own times than the average modern American is about today, but they also didn't have many of the techniques we have today and overestimates are pretty common. I wouldn't be surprised if 10% of the Roman Empire was either Jewish or God-fearers, but I would also guess the latter was larger in number.
    Again, to say there are 5% of Jews, when indeed 2,6% of population calls themselves Jewish is not an "extereme overestimation".

    And what you think a non-jewish American should think about those people who claim themselves to be Jewish, but maintain very weak if any connection to the Jewish culture/religion. No doubt, most Americans do not know and are not interested in all the complicated issues we have inside our community, and that's quite normal. Someone says he/she is Jewish, non-Jews by default believe.

    Same way the number of 6 mln Jews. I see to many historians (not all) now agree about 10% and 6 mln, so I think this number can be somewhere close to real number. Might be there were less Jews, lets say 5% and 3-4 mln, but that doesn't make the 6mln number an extereme overestimation. Anyway, at the beginning of CE there were times more Jews, comparing to what most people think.

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