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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #7971
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    According to book I’m reading Many Levantine Jewish had become Christian by this point.
    But like you said still had a Jewish community this coincides with Judah ha-Nasi (Judah the Prince) period.
    Even almost four Centuries later during Heraclious Revolt there was still a Levantine Jewish population present.
    After Bar-Kohba Revolt, in the Judah ha-Nasi time, Jews made majority in Galilea, while all the other parts of Roman Palestina had a clear pagan majority. And all the descendands of those pagans later converted to Christianity, as at the moment when Arabs came there were no pagans in the area, only Christian majority and Jewish/Samaritan minorities.
    Judah ha-Nasi himself also lived in Galilea (he moved from one location to another, but all of them were in Galilea).

    There likely were some Jews converting to Christianity, and the fact there already was Judo-Christian polemics in the second century CE supports this, but Christians were not a majority in any part of Palestine before Constantine.

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  3. #7972
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    If anyone has several Melkite Palestinians or Rum Orthodox Palestinians in Global25, we can try to average them and try seeing how well they can be used as a Levantine proxy for Western Jews.

    Though honestly from what I've seen they plot somewhere between Samaritans and Christian Lebanese, with many overlapping with Christian Lebanese.

    And you know my own view of using modern populations to model admixture when I have good ancient ones (in the case of Levantines, I have EBA, MBA, LBA, IA1 and IA2 as well as Roman-era... I mean what more can one ask other than actual ancient Jewish samples).
    What we're also missing is a study of geographical structure in the Palestinian population (with good uniparental calls too!)
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    What we're also missing is a study of geographical structure in the Palestinian population (with good uniparental calls too!)
    I think studies on Israel and Palestine will not take place so long as it is politically contentious. There are many reasons why such a study would not come to light, because given the land dispute it could have political implications.

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    For what it is worth I do have the GEDMatch ID of a Palestinian Christian.

    They are very close to Eurogenes' Samaritan reference.

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 46.56
    2 West_Asian 16.88
    3 Red_Sea 14.62
    4 West_Med 13.48
    5 North_Atlantic 4.77
    6 Northeast_African 2.84
    7 South_Asian 0.77
    8 Oceanian 0.08

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Samaritan 4.22
    2 Palestinian 4.87
    3 Lebanese_Christian 5.66
    4 Lebanese_Druze 7.52
    5 Jordanian 7.9
    6 Lebanese_Muslim 9.04
    7 Syrian 9.23
    8 Cyprian 10.78
    9 Tunisian_Jewish 11.51
    10 Bedouin 11.76
    11 Libyan_Jewish 11.92
    12 Kurdish_Jewish 14.19
    13 Iranian_Jewish 14.58
    14 Sephardic_Jewish 15.39
    15 Egyptian 16.14
    16 Italian_Jewish 16.45
    17 Algerian_Jewish 16.55
    18 Assyrian 17.03
    19 Yemenite_Jewish 18.81
    20 Ashkenazi 19.81

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 55.2% Palestinian + 44.8% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.82
    2 55.8% Samaritan + 44.2% Palestinian @ 2.83
    3 64.2% Cyprian + 35.8% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.06
    4 87.8% Samaritan + 12.2% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.35
    5 66.4% Palestinian + 33.6% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.53
    6 78.2% Lebanese_Christian + 21.8% Egyptian @ 3.57
    7 91.4% Samaritan + 8.6% Saudi @ 3.74
    8 77% Samaritan + 23% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.75
    9 76.6% Palestinian + 23.4% Cyprian @ 3.78
    10 81.6% Lebanese_Christian + 18.4% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.83
    11 89.9% Samaritan + 10.1% Egyptian @ 3.84
    12 80.3% Samaritan + 19.7% Jordanian @ 3.87
    13 87.4% Samaritan + 12.6% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.93
    14 88.5% Samaritan + 11.5% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.96
    15 97.7% Samaritan + 2.3% West_Scottish @ 3.97
    16 97.7% Samaritan + 2.3% Danish @ 3.97
    17 88.5% Samaritan + 11.5% Bedouin @ 3.97
    18 97.7% Samaritan + 2.3% North_Dutch @ 3.97
    19 97.8% Samaritan + 2.2% Norwegian @ 3.97
    20 97.7% Samaritan + 2.3% Southeast_English @ 3.98
    and on MDLP K23 they get this:

    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasian 42.38
    2 Near_East 22.25
    3 European_Early_Farmers 13.66
    4 North_African 9.23
    5 South_Central_Asian 8.41
    6 East_African 1.97


    Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
    23 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Samaritian_ @ 5.452126
    2 Lebanese_Muslim_ @ 5.495901
    3 Lebanese_ @ 5.646107
    4 Lebanese_Christian_ @ 5.756161
    5 Lebanese_Druze_ @ 7.004469
    6 Syrian_Jew_ @ 8.066648
    7 Christian_Arabs_Israel_ @ 8.473167
    8 Palestinian_ @ 8.732569
    9 Cypriot_ @ 8.958174
    10 Druze_ @ 10.513759
    11 Syrian_ @ 10.529115
    12 Iraqi_Jew_ @ 10.567941
    13 Muslim_Arabs_Israel_ @ 11.046511
    14 Iraqi_Chaldean_ @ 12.210006
    15 Assyrian_Iraqi_ @ 12.623296
    16 Tunisian_Jew_ @ 13.220448
    17 Jordanian_ @ 13.362707
    18 Turk_Jew_ @ 13.603056
    19 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 13.987847
    20 Iranian_Jew_ @ 14.371399

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Cypriot_ +50% Samaritian_ @ 3.184409


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Lebanese_Christian_ +25% Libyan_Jew_ +25% Samaritian_ @ 1.844115

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  8. #7975
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Again, to say there are 5% of Jews, when indeed 2,6% of population calls themselves Jewish is not an "extereme overestimation".

    And what you think a non-jewish American should think about those people who claim themselves to be Jewish, but maintain very weak if any connection to the Jewish culture/religion. No doubt, most Americans do not know and are not interested in all the complicated issues we have inside our community, and that's quite normal. Someone says he/she is Jewish, non-Jews by default believe.

    Same way the number of 6 mln Jews. I see to many historians (not all) now agree about 10% and 6 mln, so I think this number can be somewhere close to real number. Might be there were less Jews, lets say 5% and 3-4 mln, but that doesn't make the 6mln number an extereme overestimation. Anyway, at the beginning of CE there were times more Jews, comparing to what most people think.
    Well, the question was over and under, so it doesn't mean they thought Jews are 5%, it means they thought Jews are at least 5%. But even 5% vs. 2.6% is the difference between 8 million and 16 million people.

    Also, many of those in the broader category of 2.6% might not actually self identify as Jewish, but have a Jewish parent or grandparent.

    I think this overestimation is largely due to disproportionate visibility of Jews in the American public eye, not personal interactions. Jews are vastly over-represented in prominent roles in almost every realm of entertainment, politics, finance, arts, and other areas. So outside of places like New York, where Jews actually make up a large percentage, most people probably don't personally interact with Jews any more than other groups. It's the visibility of Jews in prominent positions that inflates estimates.

    Similarly, my guess it that Jews in the Roman Empire were disproportionately urban and thus much more visible to those making estimates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    For what it is worth I do have the GEDMatch ID of a Palestinian Christian.

    They are very close to Eurogenes' Samaritan reference.



    and on MDLP K23 they get this:
    Sikeliot..

    Could you model some different Western Jewish Groups using Palestinian Christians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I don't know if you noticed but one of the Campanians (an outlier who used to form the South Italian reference) now plots in close proximity to one of the Greek samples as well as one of the Smyrniots. The (supposedly) Mainland Greeks you see on the close-up are almost all part of the East Med continuum, coupled with the presence of the sole Phokaian in this part of the plot I think it's safe to conclude we're looking at the North Aegean profile you spoke of by the past.

    Campania and Basilicata seem to be the most clearly shifted Italian region towards contemporary Aegean Greeks, but as a rule of thumb Calabria, Campania, Basilicata and Apulia are near-identical and all overlap with each other, there's no clear substructure.

    I otherwise agree with your assessment, and I think that upcoming ancient results from Italy will show this shift from a Myceanean-like profile to one resembling present-day Eastern Mediterraneans more closely. But to be sure, Kos is really intermediate between Crete and Cyprus, this is important because this follows dialectal variety.

    Finally, the Jews do seem to be in-between Aegean Greeks and South Italians, but as you can see from the plot there's a clear pull towards the Greeks on average.



    It's pretty clear going off uniparental lineages (especially Y-DNA) that not all of the Jews' Levantine ancestry is Judean, it comprises Idumean, Samaritan, possibly Aramean or Iturean (at least) and even Nabatean strands of ancestry.
    Aga do you happen to know of the source of my parental marker (E-PF1975)? I've looked it up but found nothing, save the fact that E-Z827 which is further upstream of my own marker was found among the Natufians, although I've heard that some of the subclades of my marker (of which I tested negative by FTDNA) were found among Sardinians

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Well, the question was over and under, so it doesn't mean they thought Jews are 5%, it means they thought Jews are at least 5%. But even 5% vs. 2.6% is the difference between 8 million and 16 million people.

    Also, many of those in the broader category of 2.6% might not actually self identify as Jewish, but have a Jewish parent or grandparent.

    I think this overestimation is largely due to disproportionate visibility of Jews in the American public eye, not personal interactions. Jews are vastly over-represented in prominent roles in almost every realm of entertainment, politics, finance, arts, and other areas. So outside of places like New York, where Jews actually make up a large percentage, most people probably don't personally interact with Jews any more than other groups. It's the visibility of Jews in prominent positions that inflates estimates.

    Similarly, my guess it that Jews in the Roman Empire were disproportionately urban and thus much more visible to those making estimates.
    About modern America:
    I guess it is also important that the way American Jews behave is direct opposite to behaviour of Soviet/Russian/Ukrainian Jews. American Jews (and "Jews") tend to tell everyone about their connection to Jewish people, while in former SU Jews usually talk about such things only to each other.

    About Roman Empire:
    I guess people from academia could overestimate number of Jews if Jewish graves had more chance to preserve until today comparing to pagan graves.
    But what we know about Roman and Jewish burial ritual that is not the case. And Jewish symbols like menora help us to easily distinguish between Jewish and non-Jewish graves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Sikeliot..

    Could you model some different Western Jewish Groups using Palestinian Christians?
    I could if they were on Global25.

    Anyway I would argue that alongside Samaritans, Palestinian Christians may be the most "indigenous" to the Holy Land. Muslim Palestinians, and Western Jews have ore admixture, while many Mizrahi Jews are significantly mixed with an Assyrian-like people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    For those who speculate that at least some Greek ancestry was acquired in the Hellenistic/Roman-era Levant by ancestral, pre-diasporan Western Jews, is it likely that this assimilation only took place in the cosmopolitan Jewish population versus the rural one?
    I believe it was. Greek and later Greco-Roman settlement in the Levant was almost always stricted to urban settlement rather than rural. Furthermore, it seems Hellenistic Judaism was mostly an urban phenomenon.

    I believe the initial wave of Greek-admixed Jews left Judea following the Maccabees purges against the Greeks and Hellenistic Jews. They describe in detail how they went city by city and either killed or drove out all of the Hellenists. Of course this is a wild exaggeration as we know the Hasmonean kingdom was in excellent relationship with the Greek Ptolemaic kingdom and left some poleis like Ashkelon untouched as they were important to the Ptolemaics.
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