Page 928 of 1054 FirstFirst ... 4288288789189269279289299309389781028 ... LastLast
Results 9,271 to 9,280 of 10538

Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #9271
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,841
    Ethnicity
    Jewish
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-L210
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c7a
    mtDNA (P)
    HV1b2

    Israel Jerusalem
    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    So I got my hands on the article that Elhaik cites for some of his info. It's "Review: The Myths and Misconceptions of Jewish Linguistics" by Paul Wexler. The Jewish Quarterly Review. Vol. 101, No. 2 (Spring 2011), pp. 276-291. Anybody with JSTOR access should be able to get it.

    This is the passage that Elhaik is referring to:



    The source he cites for the Moroccans is Samuel Poznanski 's review of Tadeusz E. Modelski, Krol "Gebalim " w liJcie Chaddaja (L'viv, 1910), in the Zeitdchrift fur hebraidche Bibliographic 15 (1911): 76.

    I obviously have no way of checking whether or not his claims accurately reflect the source text, but color me skeptical. Regardless, we now know that most of his theories about Jewish language = genetics are wrong. If anybody knows German and has access to these sources, that would be great.
    The overall strategy here of Wexler and co. is banking on how convoluted and overused the term has been. One, I yet any evidence that either Al-Fasi or ben Burhan were referring to Jews. The same obviously applies to the Uzbeki Jew. Elhaik himself admits in the video that there is more confusion over where Biblical Ashkenaz was assigned to be during that time. Let's also not forget that 'Sepharad' could also be located to Sardis, Turkey.

    Now, this is a tangent and I'm not using this particular bit to debunk Elhaik. A lot of this may be connected to a collective memory of coming from Turkey. Turkish locations come up a lot in the Torah. The matriarchs have recent ancestry from Harran (Turkey) and I lean to the opinion that Abraham's hometown was also in Turkey (partly biased by my own YDNA). The Torah even goes as far as to call Sarah a Hittite and Abraham an Amorite (book of Ezekiel). The constant mention back and forth with Turkish locations and peoples in the Torah may be a reflection of the large demographic input into the Levant from the north.

    Back to the quotes, I don't yet see where either Al-Fasi or Burhan are referring to Jews. What Stejnberg is talking about, I already vaguely knew of, as the association of Ashkenaz with Germany might've (need to check how likely) arisen from the self-association of Germans with Scythians. As for Rashi, he at one point refers to the "language of Ashkenaz". Can anyone find the context? It should make it clear. Sadia Gaon's comment is just in line with the vagueness of the area - you go a bit south, you hit Anatolia and the Caucasus - a bit north and you hit Russia. The bit about Lezgians referring to Mountain Jews as Ashkenaz is interesting. What do they call actual Ashkenazi Jews then?
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

  2. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to StillWater For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-24-2020),  Claudio (02-24-2020),  Erikl86 (02-24-2020),  jonahst (02-24-2020),  Power77 (02-24-2020),  Principe (02-24-2020),  Seabass (02-24-2020),  Targum (02-24-2020)

  3. #9272
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,130
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Ashkenazi Jew
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    Q-Y2750
    mtDNA (M)
    H47
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-L791
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1b1a

    United States of America Israel
    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    The overall strategy here of Wexler and co. is banking on how convoluted and overused the term has been. One, I yet any evidence that either Al-Fasi or ben Burhan were referring to Jews. The same obviously applies to the Uzbeki Jew. Elhaik himself admits in the video that there is more confusion over where Biblical Ashkenaz was assigned to be during that time. Let's also not forget that 'Sepharad' could also be located to Sardis, Turkey.

    Now, this is a tangent and I'm not using this particular bit to debunk Elhaik. A lot of this may be connected to a collective memory of coming from Turkey. Turkish locations come up a lot in the Torah. The matriarchs have recent ancestry from Harran (Turkey) and I lean to the opinion that Abraham's hometown was also in Turkey (partly biased by my own YDNA). The Torah even goes as far as to call Sarah a Hittite and Abraham an Amorite (book of Ezekiel). The constant mention back and forth with Turkish locations and peoples in the Torah may be a reflection of the large demographic input into the Levant from the north.

    Back to the quotes, I don't yet see where either Al-Fasi or Burhan are referring to Jews. What Stejnberg is talking about, I already vaguely knew of, as the association of Ashkenaz with Germany might've (need to check how likely) arisen from the self-association of Germans with Scythians. As for Rashi, he at one point refers to the "language of Ashkenaz". Can anyone find the context? It should make it clear. Sadia Gaon's comment is just in line with the vagueness of the area - you go a bit south, you hit Anatolia and the Caucasus - a bit north and you hit Russia. The bit about Lezgians referring to Mountain Jews as Ashkenaz is interesting. What do they call actual Ashkenazi Jews then?

    I agree about the Patriarchal homeland being in modern-day southeast Turkey, specifically in Urfa, which is right near Harran (and also 12 km from Göbekli Tepe, which I have a hard time believing is purely coincidental), but don't forget that these areas were all part of Upper Mesopotamia, which was distinct from areas in Asia Minor or the Anatolian Peninsula. They obviously border each other and have overlapping histories, but I think the distinction is important. In general, though, modern-day Turkey clearly includes areas and cities that were extremely important to ancient Israelites and Jews, from Harran to Antioch to Mt. Ararat.

  4. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to jonahst For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-24-2020),  Andrewid (02-24-2020),  Claudio (02-24-2020),  Erikl86 (02-24-2020),  hartaisarlag (02-24-2020),  passenger (02-24-2020),  Power77 (02-24-2020),  Principe (02-24-2020),  Seabass (02-24-2020),  StillWater (02-24-2020),  Táltos (02-24-2020),  Targum (02-24-2020)

  5. #9273
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    4,353
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Well, since we're talking about the Khazar hoax, I didn't plan on sharing this but a couple of days ago I came across the following comment on a video dealing with the Khazars:

     



    Just as I had predicted last December:

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    [...] when, eventually, the results somehow filter down to the antisemitic crowd, you'll see the narrative shift in a number of ways... Jews will magically become Greek converts, and the Khazar myth? Why, a Jewish invention of course, just look at all of its proponents: Koestler, Wexler, Sand, Elhaik... all Jewish!

    I can see it coming from a mile away.
    Make no mistake, this is the future of the Khazar hoax. Whenever something outlives its usefulness or simply bothers them, antisemites Judaise it.

    What is really striking about the Khazar hoax, to me at least, is how fact-free it is. The sheer methodology of it all is quite amusing, take the linguistics for instance, if I were to take Wexler's "relexification" theories seriously one could easily argue that Yiddish is "relexified Aramaic" or "relexified Mishnaic Hebrew". Likewise, you'll notice that Elhaik keeps mum on the other populations that fall into the East Med Continuum in close proximity to Western Jews... I for one would like him to extend his reasoning so as to inform present-day Aegean and Cypriot Greeks of their Turkic ancestry, it seems that beyond painting Jews as impostors, Elhaik has surprisingly little to tell us about population genetics.

    Koestler's original intent was to disprove the accusations of deicide the Jews were subjected to for centuries, the simple way of doing this was by denying any biological ties to the "Christ Killers". Naturally, rather than doing anything to disprove these accusations and diminishing hate towards Jews, the hoax provided a convenient cover to all kinds of antisemites interested in denying Jewish peoplehood by disguising their motivations as purely scholarly. It has been promoted by a large array of people, from Ezra Pound to Mahmoud Abbas, and is by and large symptomatic of how antisemitism and "anti-Zionism" are indistinguishable (any claim to the contrary is at best a futile exercise in semantics).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 02-24-2020 at 06:20 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  6. The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     Andrewid (02-24-2020),  Claudio (02-24-2020),  dosas (02-24-2020),  Erik (03-16-2020),  Erikl86 (02-24-2020),  grumpydaddybear (02-25-2020),  JMcB (02-24-2020),  John Doe (02-24-2020),  jonahst (02-24-2020),  Power77 (02-24-2020),  Principe (02-24-2020),  StillWater (02-24-2020),  SUPREEEEEME (02-24-2020),  Targum (02-27-2020)

  7. #9274
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,610

    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Lord Elhaik has uploaded a lecture:



    I'm good for a week.
    I found it quite funny (around the time he introduces his GPS tool) when he says “Ashkenazi Jews are definitely not half Levantine half Russian” as if this was some common claim?
    (first I’ve heard of it) lol

    Humoring his whole theory,regarding North Turkey,Irano-Turks,merchants,village’s of Ashkenaz Oshkenaz & whatever kenaz etc etc.. it doesn’t explain why modern Ashkenazim score so little Iranian or Caucasus compared to Turks and Iranians and why Ashkenazim score such high Eastmed on calculater’s in comparison to Turks & Iranians?

    Even if I humor his ethogenesis theory these Iranian Jews of North Turkey must of been very Levantine in ancestry?
    But no according to el haik they are Iranian converts? Kind of a contradiction me thinks? Convenient?

    On the other hand I’m surprised el haik has not started using LivingDNA’s recent updated results of Ashkenazim to back his theory?
    Scoring: South Italian % North Turkey % Southern Caucasus % Levantine % North East euro %
    They fit nicely into his Irano-Turkic,Greco Roman,Slavic ethnogenesis

  8. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Claudio For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-24-2020),  Erikl86 (02-24-2020),  grumpydaddybear (02-25-2020),  jonahst (02-24-2020),  passenger (02-24-2020),  Power77 (02-24-2020),  StillWater (02-24-2020),  Targum (02-27-2020)

  9. #9275
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,130
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Ashkenazi Jew
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    Q-Y2750
    mtDNA (M)
    H47
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-L791
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1b1a

    United States of America Israel
    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    I found it quite funny (around the time he introduces his GPS tool) when he says “Ashkenazi Jews are definitely not half Levantine half Russian” as if this was some common claim?
    (first I’ve heard of it) lol
    Also, if it was a 2-way mix between Russians and Levantines, it would be more like 70-30.


  10. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to jonahst For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-24-2020),  Claudio (02-24-2020),  Erikl86 (02-24-2020),  grumpydaddybear (02-25-2020),  jetshop (02-25-2020),  John Doe (02-24-2020),  passenger (02-24-2020),  Power77 (02-24-2020),  Seabass (02-24-2020),  StillWater (02-24-2020)

  11. #9276
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,218
    Sex
    Location
    United States
    Ethnicity
    NW Europe+Ash/Seph Jewish

    England Star of David Netherlands Turkey Denmark Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    On the other hand I’m surprised el haik has not started using LivingDNA’s recent updated results of Ashkenazim to back his theory?
    Scoring: South Italian % North Turkey % Southern Caucasus % Levantine % North East euro %
    They fit nicely into his Irano-Turkic,Greco Roman,Slavic ethnogenesis
    Perhaps it's because of this:

    Screenshot_2020-02-24 Unearthing Ancient Ashkenaz and the origin of Yiddish - YouTube.png

  12. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to passenger For This Useful Post:

     Claudio (02-24-2020),  Erikl86 (02-24-2020),  grumpydaddybear (02-25-2020),  jonahst (02-24-2020),  Power77 (02-24-2020),  StillWater (02-24-2020),  Targum (02-27-2020)

  13. #9277
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,610

    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Also, if it was a 2-way mix between Russians and Levantines, it would be more like 70-30.

    Man that El Haik guy!
    I basically commented on his YouTube video that modern Ashkenazim on Gedmatch calculators like K13 mostly score West Asian at the level of North Italians let alone South Italians,whilst simultaneously Ashkenazim score higher East med Levantine than Southern Italians and that this contradicts his hypothesis unless he is suggesting Italians are also lost Iranian converts? I then told him that if I humor his theory for a second knowing how levantine shifted Ashkenazim are that these Iranian Jews of North Turkey he proposes must have been very Levantine in ancestry and NOT Iranian converts.

    He then deleted my comment!

    Twice!!
    Last edited by Claudio; 02-24-2020 at 07:34 PM.

  14. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Claudio For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-24-2020),  Erikl86 (02-24-2020),  jetshop (02-25-2020),  jonahst (02-24-2020),  Power77 (02-24-2020),  Seabass (02-24-2020),  Targum (02-27-2020)

  15. #9278
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,841
    Ethnicity
    Jewish
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-L210
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c7a
    mtDNA (P)
    HV1b2

    Israel Jerusalem
    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    He already has the test. Primeval DNA or whatever it's called. Funny enough, I recall him pointing out that some Turkish individuals and what appeared to be a generic white guy had scored the highest match with the Israelites thus far. Of course, his Twitter is private now. Even more funny, that site referred to Abraham as an Anatolian last I checked it, but in the lecture, we're Anatolian converts.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

  16. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to StillWater For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-24-2020),  Claudio (02-24-2020),  Erikl86 (02-24-2020),  grumpydaddybear (02-25-2020),  hartaisarlag (02-24-2020),  jonahst (02-24-2020),  passenger (02-24-2020),  Power77 (02-24-2020)

  17. #9279
    Registered Users
    Posts
    487
    Sex

    Greece Cyprus Byzantine Empire
    Anyone tested themselves on Elhaik's GPS Origins test through HomeDNA? I'm largely showing DNA peaking in Sardinia (!), southeastern India (!!) and Fennoscandia, peaking in Iceland and Norway... the latter deserves three of these:!!! I also get about 10% from Western Siberia, so Agamemnon may be on to something about my Turkic origins I might have more useful results by blindly putting a pin in a map

  18. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Andrewid For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-24-2020),  Claudio (02-24-2020),  Erikl86 (02-24-2020),  grumpydaddybear (02-25-2020),  jetshop (02-25-2020),  jonahst (02-24-2020),  passenger (02-24-2020),  Power77 (02-24-2020),  Seabass (02-24-2020),  StillWater (02-24-2020),  Targum (02-27-2020)

  19. #9280
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    4,353
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Remember, this clown is currently working on the BA samples from Megiddo. Expect some sort of major malfunction.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  20. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     Claudio (02-24-2020),  Erikl86 (02-24-2020),  grumpydaddybear (02-25-2020),  John Doe (02-24-2020),  jonahst (02-24-2020),  Power77 (02-24-2020),  Seabass (02-24-2020),  StillWater (02-24-2020),  SUPREEEEEME (02-25-2020),  Targum (02-27-2020)

Page 928 of 1054 FirstFirst ... 4288288789189269279289299309389781028 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 09-18-2020, 09:29 PM
  2. Do Mandaens descend from Jews?
    By StillWater in forum Jewish
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-07-2020, 04:38 AM
  3. Late Gupta era admixture in Western India
    By tipirneni in forum Southern
    Replies: 85
    Last Post: 10-24-2019, 03:16 PM
  4. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-29-2019, 04:04 AM
  5. Replies: 18
    Last Post: 08-04-2019, 05:01 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •