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Thread: In Uttar Pradesh, 4,000-Year-Old Chariots And Coffins Found

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    You could use a gearing mechanism to convert the spin of the shaft of the wheels into the spin of the blades using gears at 90 degrees. Still be mechanically powered by the bulls or horses driving the chariot. I didn't think that design was necessarily futuristic.

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    any further news on this? Did these Chariots belong to Indo Aryans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by akash View Post
    any further news on this? Did these Chariots belong to Indo Aryans?
    The information on the dig I don't see it in published

    Following paper says swords came in later 2000BC which probably indicates people were peaceful traders unlike ancient ME

    Rigveda and Atharvaveda Shaunaka Samhitas have been carefully analyzed to check whether they
    mention copper or bronze swords. It has turned out that both texts do not know swords (only knives) and
    therefore must be dated in their habitats in the Northwest of the Indian subcontinent prior to the introduction
    of such weapons into the region. Swords have been archaeologically evidenced both in the Indus valley and
    in the Yamuna–Ganges Doab only after 2000 BC. This facts make us date Atharvaveda Shaunaka prior to
    2000 BC, and more archaic Rigveda — a few centuries earlier (prior to 2600 BC).
    Then all available data on copper and bronze swords of different types (straight double-edged,
    machete-cleaver, sickle-shaped, ‗rapier‘, ‗harpoon‘) originating from the Old World and dating back to 3500–
    2000 BC have been collected and scrutinized.
    Based on this analysis the following regions are to be excluded from the list of possible Indo-Aryan
    homelands prior to 2000 BC because they already had copper or bronze swords: North-Western Caucasus,
    Kuban region — in 3500–3300 BC; (South-)East Anatolia – in 3400–2900 BC; Palestine/ Israel/ Canaan — in
    3200–2750 BC, 2400–2000 BC; Central Anatolia – in 2750–2250 BC; Elam — in 2500–2000 BC; Cyclades
    — in 2500–2100 BC; Mesopotamia, Sumer – in 2400–2000 BC; Mesopotamia, Akkad — in 2350–2200 BC;
    Northern Anatolia – in 2300–2000 BC; Bactria–Margiana — in 2300–2000 BC; Transcaucasia — in 2200–
    2000 BC.


    https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.ne...OHF5GGSLRBV4ZA
    Last edited by tipirneni; 07-24-2020 at 12:18 AM.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    The information on the dig I don't see it in published

    Following paper says swords came in later 2000BC which probably indicates people were peaceful traders unlike ancient ME

    Rigveda and Atharvaveda Shaunaka Samhitas have been carefully analyzed to check whether they
    mention copper or bronze swords. It has turned out that both texts do not know swords (only knives) and
    therefore must be dated in their habitats in the Northwest of the Indian subcontinent prior to the introduction
    of such weapons into the region. Swords have been archaeologically evidenced both in the Indus valley and
    in the Yamuna–Ganges Doab only after 2000 BC. This facts make us date Atharvaveda Shaunaka prior to
    2000 BC, and more archaic Rigveda — a few centuries earlier (prior to 2600 BC).
    Then all available data on copper and bronze swords of different types (straight double-edged,
    machete-cleaver, sickle-shaped, ‗rapier‘, ‗harpoon‘) originating from the Old World and dating back to 3500–
    2000 BC have been collected and scrutinized.
    Based on this analysis the following regions are to be excluded from the list of possible Indo-Aryan
    homelands prior to 2000 BC because they already had copper or bronze swords: North-Western Caucasus,
    Kuban region — in 3500–3300 BC; (South-)East Anatolia – in 3400–2900 BC; Palestine/ Israel/ Canaan — in
    3200–2750 BC, 2400–2000 BC; Central Anatolia – in 2750–2250 BC; Elam — in 2500–2000 BC; Cyclades
    — in 2500–2100 BC; Mesopotamia, Sumer – in 2400–2000 BC; Mesopotamia, Akkad — in 2350–2200 BC;
    Northern Anatolia – in 2300–2000 BC; Bactria–Margiana — in 2300–2000 BC; Transcaucasia — in 2200–
    2000 BC.


    https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.ne...OHF5GGSLRBV4ZA
    That article is hinged on false positives. A 2600 BC date for the Rig Veda!!?? How is that even possible given their Fatayanovo-Abashevo ancestors were still hanging out in Western Russia, that eliminates any remote chance of that occurring.

    This facts make us date Atharvaveda Shaunaka prior to
    2000 BC, and more archaic Rigveda — a few centuries earlier (prior to 2600 BC).


    Those Sannauli chariots are not spoke wheeled they clearly look like updated and refined versions of Mesopotamian chariots , its almost a millennia before PGW is in full sway in this region, and by that time PGW Indo Aryans were pretty much cavalry riders. Scythed chariots make sort of a come back in the Classical Age but even then cavalry was the dominant choice of warfare.

    The appearance of antennae swords after 2000 BC is because , Steppe Indo Iranians are moving into Central Asia proper, and access to the Zerafshan mines allowed for more increased metallurgy, and after antennae swords spread all over via trade. That paper you linked suggests its via the Copper Hoard. Which is blatantly incorrect.

    A double-edged sword 52 cm long with shoulders and a tang with a short ‗antenna‘ at the end was
    found in Bactria (Northern Afghanistan) (Figure 37). This weapon belongs typically to the blades of the
    Copper Hoards or Ochre Coloured Potter culture and can be dated circa 2000 BC or later.
    Last edited by pegasus; 07-24-2020 at 04:02 AM.

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    It's hard to make out in the video and images, but this doesn't look like an actual chariot (which, by definition, is a two-wheeled, lightweight mobility platform driven by a horse usually; the two horse arrangement is widely seen in ancient times).

    As pegasus rightly states, the most widely-accepted oldest discovery of a chariot was in Sintashta (IIRC 2100 B.C. is the oldest radiocarbon dating for it). These ones had spoke wheels, which were found in artistically recorded chariots in multiple other cultures later on (f.ex. ancient Greece). You can only stand with chariots.

    Four-wheeled, heavier carriages driven by other animals (f.ex. oxen, potentially Caspian horses in agricultural EBA northern Iran) are best described as wagons (or carriages in the case of horses). You can either stand or sit with these wagons. Quite a few reliefs from the Near-East show horses pulling wagons (plus chariots) from the BA onwards.

    This has already been elaborated upon in clear detail by the experts (f.ex. Anthony, The Horse, The Wheel and Language). There simply hasn't been a finding thus far outside of the Eurasian steppes of a two-wheeled, lightweight, standing-only, spoke-wheeled chariot that's older than Sintashta.

    Odds are, this was some sort of wagon (be it war or agricultural) with ancillary bronze items. We need a clearer view of this thing's wheels and overall structure to determine if it's a chariot or not.

    I wouldn't take the reporter's comments as gospel either, for that matter - Even native English speakers don't always recognise the difference between chariots, wagons and carriages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    It's hard to make out in the video and images, but this doesn't look like an actual chariot (which, by definition, is a two-wheeled, lightweight mobility platform driven by a horse usually; the two horse arrangement is widely seen in ancient times).

    As pegasus rightly states, the most widely-accepted oldest discovery of a chariot was in Sintashta (IIRC 2100 B.C. is the oldest radiocarbon dating for it). These ones had spoke wheels, which were found in artistically recorded chariots in multiple other cultures later on (f.ex. ancient Greece). You can only stand with chariots.

    Four-wheeled, heavier carriages driven by other animals (f.ex. oxen, potentially Caspian horses in agricultural EBA northern Iran) are best described as wagons (or carriages in the case of horses). You can either stand or sit with these wagons. Quite a few reliefs from the Near-East show horses pulling wagons (plus chariots) from the BA onwards.

    This has already been elaborated upon in clear detail by the experts (f.ex. Anthony, The Horse, The Wheel and Language). There simply hasn't been a finding thus far outside of the Eurasian steppes of a two-wheeled, lightweight, standing-only, spoke-wheeled chariot that's older than Sintashta.

    Odds are, this was some sort of wagon (be it war or agricultural) with ancillary bronze items. We need a clearer view of this thing's wheels and overall structure to determine if it's a chariot or not.

    I wouldn't take the reporter's comments as gospel either, for that matter - Even native English speakers don't always recognise the difference between chariots, wagons and carriages.
    Weren't horse drawn wagons, a Yamnaya innnovation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Weren't horse drawn wagons, a Yamnaya innnovation?
    Yes. Although wagons led by animals weren't a Yamnaya innovation. IIRC the Sumerians were using those in the 3rd millennium BC. The oldest wheel we currently have dates to a couple hundred years before that in CE Europe. I cannot remember the exact chronology of that particular invention.

    Per Anthony, horses and (?)tin were mass-imported into the Near-Eastern city-states and empires during the BA period. We then see the appearance of the quintessentially steppe chariot in the LBA-IA onwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by akash View Post
    any further news on this? Did these Chariots belong to Indo Aryans?
    Not chariots and probably not owned by Indo-Aryans.

    They did some C14 dating and it came back to 1900-1800 bc or something. So it doen't predate the chariots found in the Sintashta-Petrovka cultural zone.

    The designs are quite different from actual chariots and unlike in the steppes, were we see actual chariots buried with horses, this wagon was not buried with any horses and easily could've been pulled by another draft animal. Two-wheeled wagons pulled by oxen were common place in the Indus Valley civilization. It could've also been pulled by donkeys or onagers, but like David W. Anthony suggested actually using onagers like you'd use horses in combat seems almost impossible because onagers are nasty buggers and if so it was more ritualistic than anything.

    But people trade and during this timeframe you'd like have the first horse trade between central Asia and the Near East, so who knows? Perhaps it was pulled by horses. However we have no evidence for it, nor for horses being used in this period and this burial cannot be linked to Indo-European traditions because chariot burials should be accompanied by horses.

    Unrelated, but this is a pretty cool paper about Iron age in South Asia, and it includes an analysis of metallurgical terms used in the Rigveda, which could be a good way to gauge when various books were composed: https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._IN_SOUTH_ASIA

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Yes. Although wagons led by animals weren't a Yamnaya innovation. IIRC the Sumerians were using those in the 3rd millennium BC. The oldest wheel we currently have dates to a couple hundred years before that in CE Europe. I cannot remember the exact chronology of that particular invention.

    Per Anthony, horses and (?)tin were mass-imported into the Near-Eastern city-states and empires during the BA period. We then see the appearance of the quintessentially steppe chariot in the LBA-IA onwards.
    Horse drawn wagons gave the Yamnaya an edge over their neighbours.

    This is worth watching:


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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    It's hard to make out in the video and images, but this doesn't look like an actual chariot (which, by definition, is a two-wheeled, lightweight mobility platform driven by a horse usually; the two horse arrangement is widely seen in ancient times).

    As pegasus rightly states, the most widely-accepted oldest discovery of a chariot was in Sintashta (IIRC 2100 B.C. is the oldest radiocarbon dating for it). These ones had spoke wheels, which were found in artistically recorded chariots in multiple other cultures later on (f.ex. ancient Greece). You can only stand with chariots.
    ...
    Odds are, this was some sort of wagon (be it war or agricultural) with ancillary bronze items. We need a clearer view of this thing's wheels and overall structure to determine if it's a chariot or not.
    ...

    The Sinauli one does look like a two wheeled chariot, but with solid wheels per the Manjul representation.


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