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Thread: The Normans

  1. #1
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    Cool The Normans

    I figured I'd start a new Norman thread to discuss potential families and surnames associated with this bunch. I remember the thread that Mikewww, started a few years ago and I haven't seen one like it since.

    My main stake in this is my own paternal line. Which over the years has changed drastically. For those of you who remember me from the dna-forum's, you'll know that I was at one point considering my paternal line to be Highlander Scots!

    Though I did finally confirm it to be from Devon, England. Which has led to the theory I'm about to present. I'll repeat this is just my own theory based on the research I've done for my specific genealogy.

    A bit of background on my surname and coat of arms.. "Isaac, or Izacke, of Buriatt in Atherington. — This ancient family was settled at Buriatt as early as the reign of Henry III. The estate has been long ago alienated, but the family, I am informed, still exists, the representative living at Newton Tracey, and a younger branch at Newport, near Barnstaple."

    My Isaac group appears to be of this initial, "Ancient" branch. Though over the years they generally stayed in the Winkleigh area of Devon, before moving closer to the Exeter area. The further north one goes in Devon, the higher amount of Isaac's there appears to be. Even extending on up into Southern Wales, where the surname reaches one of its frequency peaks.

    "A coat of arms was granted to the Isaac family of Devonshire in the reign of Henry III (1216 - 1272). It has the blazon of a blue field charged per pale azure and purple, with a gold cross flory/fleury."

    From what I have been able to find, it appears that the surname evolved out of the Latinized Anglo-Norman name, Filius Isaac, meaning son of Isaac. Of which there are a few variant's, these being Isaac/Isaacs, Higgins, Higginson, and Hickson.

    The coat of arm's granted to the family are another source of my reasoning. The main feature of the arm's, the "Gold Cross Fleury", appears to derive its unique design from the French staple of Heraldry, the "Fleur-De-Lis". It seems this particular style of cross is associated with "One who has conquered". Another nod to possible connection with a French/Norman background.

    The color of the arms is another source of interest.. "As an heraldic colour, the word azure simply means "blue". It is one of many concepts with both a French and German word in English, the former being used by the French-speaking nobles following the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."

    "The many great estates subsequently held by William’s barons in Devon were known as "honours". Chief amongst them were Plympton, Okehampton, Barnstaple, Totnes and Harberton."

    I'm not proposing that my y-line is a descendant of one of these barons per say, but I do think it is likely that we may be the descendants of a guard (possibly infantryman turned guard) or even a knight of some sort. This is where I'm really going out on a limb, as I have no idea what would be likely, given the name isn't generally well known. My main point regarding the Honours, is that there was one in the same area of the oldest known group of my family.

    Another reason for all of this rambling, is my somewhat distant match with a Frenchman, whose ancestry is of Gallo/Breton descent. This person and I are both SRY2627 and share a rather uncommon str value, with 14 repeats at DYS392. I remember using a tmrca calculator a couple months back to see where the Frenchman and myself stood. Given the imprecise nature of these calculators, I came up with a general timeframe of 957 AD or 1033 AD.

    At any rate, here are my initial thoughts on the subject!

    I hope other's will contribute their family histories as well.
     
    Y-DNA : R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>L176.2>Z262>SRY2627*

    mtDNA : J1c8

    Lactase Persistence: rs4988235 - AA rs182549 - TT

    EEF 49.22068981
    WHG 35.89409732
    ANE 14.88521287


    Eurogenes K7:
    WHG 61.67%
    ENF 19.35%
    ANE 15.21%


    Ysearch - ky8wb

    ftdna - 151463

    23andMe - M936999

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gray Fox For This Useful Post:

     Anglecynn (10-17-2013),  Grossvater (10-15-2013)

  3. #2
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    "Though over the years they generally stayed in the Winkleigh area of Devon,
    Are you in the Devon DNA project?

    (And Sam, please keep your finger off the apostrophe key! )

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTC View Post
    Are you in the Devon DNA project?

    (And Sam, please keep your finger off the apostrophe key! )
    Gaahh! I knew something didn't look right about that title!

    No, I'm not allowed to join the project due to the amount of time my specific branch of the family has been out of the area. However, I did discover my "cousin" through their project. So there was no need for me to join.

    (*Any moderator's reading this, please feel free to correct my grammar regarding the title. )
    Last edited by Gray Fox; 10-15-2013 at 04:24 AM.
     
    Y-DNA : R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>L176.2>Z262>SRY2627*

    mtDNA : J1c8

    Lactase Persistence: rs4988235 - AA rs182549 - TT

    EEF 49.22068981
    WHG 35.89409732
    ANE 14.88521287


    Eurogenes K7:
    WHG 61.67%
    ENF 19.35%
    ANE 15.21%


    Ysearch - ky8wb

    ftdna - 151463

    23andMe - M936999

  5. #4
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    My paternal line is reportedly Anglo-Norman with historical record mentions of Devonshire.

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    Yes, Hiberno-Norman if I'm not mistaken? Interestingly enough, there appears to be a Joyce in the SRY2627 project. With regards to SRY2627 in the Isles, I'd say a good portion of it is there due to the Normans. I also have a Hargis line in my tree that appears to have arrived to England in this manner too. Though from what I've read of the Hargis's their appears to be a possibility of them arriving through Huguenot immigration.
     
    Y-DNA : R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>L176.2>Z262>SRY2627*

    mtDNA : J1c8

    Lactase Persistence: rs4988235 - AA rs182549 - TT

    EEF 49.22068981
    WHG 35.89409732
    ANE 14.88521287


    Eurogenes K7:
    WHG 61.67%
    ENF 19.35%
    ANE 15.21%


    Ysearch - ky8wb

    ftdna - 151463

    23andMe - M936999

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Isaack View Post
    Yes, Hiberno-Norman if I'm not mistaken?
    Yes, if historical records are true, apparently part of Stongbow's invasion forces.

    Interestingly enough, there appears to be a Joyce in the SRY2627 project. With regards to SRY2627 in the Isles, I'd say a good portion of it is there due to the Normans. I also have a Hargis line in my tree that appears to have arrived to England in this manner too. Though from what I've read of the Hargis's their appears to be a possibility of them arriving through Huguenot immigration.
    I don't know much about SRY2627. What's its distribution in France?

  8. #7
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    From academic testing the sub clade has shown a strong preference to the Pyrenees in general (Basically the same for the French and Spanish side). More recent studies have shown the clade to be quite common in the Aquitaine region as well. With some author's referring to it as a good fit for a sizeable amount of the ancient male population of that region.

    Commercial testing has shown the sub clade to cluster in and around the Poitou region. Extending on up and getting lighter as one moves through Brittany and becoming very infrequent in the Isles. Though France in general seems to be somewhat thick with this clade, decreasing in numbers as you move to the East and Northeast of the country.
     
    Y-DNA : R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>L176.2>Z262>SRY2627*

    mtDNA : J1c8

    Lactase Persistence: rs4988235 - AA rs182549 - TT

    EEF 49.22068981
    WHG 35.89409732
    ANE 14.88521287


    Eurogenes K7:
    WHG 61.67%
    ENF 19.35%
    ANE 15.21%


    Ysearch - ky8wb

    ftdna - 151463

    23andMe - M936999

  9. #8
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    Regarding the Joyce SRY2627. It seems there is a small family cluster of Joyce's who belong to said sub clade, reporting roots to Ireland. I notice there is also a group of Joyce's from Ireland who have turned up L21. I can't help but feel that the L21 are Native Irish who adopted the surname and the SRY2627 represent the invaders. I doubt very much that the Native Irishmen would have belonged to SRY2627. I don't know of any SRY2627 that has been reported as being truly Native. Another interesting aspect of the Joyce family, well interesting to me, is that they also have 14 repeats at DYS392. I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but it's fun to believe it may have something do with a French/Norman origin for us both.

    A similar trend also seems to be present in the Fitzgerald's.. With native groups adopting the name being L21 and the original invaders seem to have belonged to haplogroup I1. The Fitzhugh's also seem to be either I1 or I2a.
     
    Y-DNA : R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>L176.2>Z262>SRY2627*

    mtDNA : J1c8

    Lactase Persistence: rs4988235 - AA rs182549 - TT

    EEF 49.22068981
    WHG 35.89409732
    ANE 14.88521287


    Eurogenes K7:
    WHG 61.67%
    ENF 19.35%
    ANE 15.21%


    Ysearch - ky8wb

    ftdna - 151463

    23andMe - M936999

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Isaack View Post
    . . . I can't help but feel that the L21 are Native Irish who adopted the surname and the SRY2627 represent the invaders . . .
    That may be true, but has any SRY2627 been found in Normandy?

    I do see one in the Normandy Y-DNA Project.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

  11. #10
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    United States Gadsden Devon Germany Bayern Northern Ireland Germany Palatinate Wales
    Thanks for the info. I don't really think of SRY2627 as being Norman. Rather I believe it was brought with the Normans. I feel my own specific branch, if it is in fact "Norman", was originally in the Gallo speaking region of Brittany.
     
    Y-DNA : R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>L176.2>Z262>SRY2627*

    mtDNA : J1c8

    Lactase Persistence: rs4988235 - AA rs182549 - TT

    EEF 49.22068981
    WHG 35.89409732
    ANE 14.88521287


    Eurogenes K7:
    WHG 61.67%
    ENF 19.35%
    ANE 15.21%


    Ysearch - ky8wb

    ftdna - 151463

    23andMe - M936999

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