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Thread: T2a1a anyone have this sub-clade with links to the U.K.?

  1. #1

    T2a1a anyone have this sub-clade with links to the U.K.?

    My furthest back female line ancestor has Haplogroup T2a1a and came from Carmarthenshire wales born around 1782 by the name of Susanna Richards does anyone else have this Haplogroup? Or know anything else about it?

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  3. #2
    Hi! I'm T2a1a and I'm from Iceland. My Icelandic paper trail ends 7 generations back in 1742 and is confirmed 6 generations back by a match.
    I have no idea whether it goes farther back in time in Iceland or if it came to Iceland from the UK or somewhere else before that!
    I have many unexplained autosomal DNA matches from the UK and it's former colonies... this might be one of the explanations... but I don't know.

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     Bollox79 (04-25-2020)

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    My great granfather's mtDNA was T2a1a8 and his known ancestors are from Ireland, more specifically County Roscommon. Her earliest known ancestor is Mary Connella born in the late 1700s. Eupedia has it that the subclades that evolved in the Near East and have remained more frequent there include several T1a subclades, T1b, T2a, T2c, T2d and T2h, among others. T2a1a is found in Europe, the Near East, Central Asia and India.
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Y-DNA (P) ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    mtDNA (P) ancestor: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA (M) ancestor: McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA Great grandfather: Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)
    Y-DNA 2x great grandfather: Higgins b. c1816 in Co. Roscommon (R-DF109)
    Y-DNA 3x great grandfather: Fleming b. c1829 in Co. Roscommon (R-Z23534)

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     Bollox79 (04-25-2020)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FionnSneachta View Post
    My great granfather's mtDNA was T2a1a8 and his known ancestors are from Ireland, more specifically County Roscommon. Her earliest known ancestor is Mary Connella born in the late 1700s. Eupedia has it that the subclades that evolved in the Near East and have remained more frequent there include several T1a subclades, T1b, T2a, T2c, T2d and T2h, among others. T2a1a is found in Europe, the Near East, Central Asia and India.
    Hello I'm sure we have spoken before about Irish stuff ;-)... my maternal group while not T2a1a and subject of thread, but is T2b2b and I've made a few discoveries per my maternal line from Lower Ormond/Northern Tipperary/Lorrha and Dorrha. My 3rd GGF Martin Colway married 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher or Anglicized as Deane or Dana (have seen both spellings) and this is what I have one that family in that area: O'Dana(g)her: O'Danachair earlier O'Duinechair - sept originated in Lower Ormond (where Lorrha and Dorrha is located) long been located in Limerick. The Surnames of Ireland: 6th Edition By Edward MacLysaght. Or this family perhaps: Dane or O'Deaghain (deaghan, dean or deacon): A sept of Co. Roscommon. Source: The Surnames of Ireland: 6th Edition By Edward MacLysagh. The Colways there married also with O'Kennedys and Delaneys (and others) in the parish of Lorrha and Dorrha in Lower Ormond - in fact at LacKeen was an O'Kennedy stronghold - all that still shows up in my mother's DNA matching - a ton of Kennedy cousins (2nd/3rd through 5th perhaps would have to look - one has segment length more common to say a 3rd or 4th cousins, but total CM shared is more in line with a 2nd cousin... and that cousins had two or more O'Kennedy lines etc). We get a lot of matches with ancestry from Tipperary and Clare and really the SW and Southern parts...

    Concerning the Colways - I have found it spelled Cowhey or Cowhay (including my ancestor Martin spelled Cowhey/Cowhay) in the census also so there is that also: "The surname Cowhey was first found in County Cork, Roscommon and Meath, where the claim descent from the Irish monarch, Luy Mac Con, from the line of Ithe Kings, ancestor of Cobthach Fion, who in turn was the ancestor of the name Coffey or Caughey (both pronounced the same way). The O'Coffeys of Corcaloidhe are kin of the O'Driscolls, and are still common in southwest County Cork today." A quick search of my Mother's cousins turns up O'Driscolls from the South and in fact from Skibereen in SW Cork etc...

    In addition we get some other interesting matches from a bit further north and into Antrim (MacAulays and crew - possibly MacDonnels and O'Currans and Gordons - some Gallowglass families as my Mother gets matches with MacDonalds of the Isles - and I get that on both sides! My father's side from Pennsylvania has Scottish and Northern Irish colonial pioneers in the form of Fergusons of Atholl and their relations - they came out for the Jacobite side in '16 and also for Prince Charlie in '45 - a rather large family that ended up over in the Colonies in Pennsylvania and Virginia and participated in the French and Indian War conflict and our Revolutionary War - the Jamesons they married with from Northern Ireland did much the same) and Fermanagh (we also have matches with Northern families i.e. Maguires from Kinawley and possibly Tempo (those ended up in New South Wales also) and Armstrongs of Brooksboro all near Enniskillen so plenty of evidence for connection to the Fermanagh Maguires)...

    I noticed you have Kelly and McDermott... I think we already chatted a bit about the Flemmings/Flemings of Laois (originally that was through Flemings from the Swan and Wolfhill Ballyadams for us - but I found another Irish cousins of Mom's I think who isn't a Fleming, but has that same ancestry - check O'Dwyer possibly as that is our connection to those families - also perhaps O'Byrne of Glenmalure we get distant cousins in New South Wales descendants of Capt. Michael Dwyer and Lt. Hugh Vestry Byrne - also Cornelius Dwyer tried and shipped out from Limerick on the Atlas in 1802... one distant cousins has ALL that ancestry! I checked our Kellys after I heard about Ned Kelly Gang and last bushranger etc etc - His Kellys were from Tipperary and his mother's side Clare... on of the guys who ran with him was in fact a Byrne from Carlow (or his father was from Carlow etc) in fact I see a bunch of either Kellys or people with that ancestry show up in my Mom's results - including an Irish cousin with most of their ancestry from Roscommon - so I thought I'd mention it here since a lot of your family is from there!

    Her ancestry is as follows as I think she is possibly from Roscommon - but I won't list her name since it's on my list as a match and I should keep it private etc: Lane Leane (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Lean (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) McLane Connolly (Athleague,County Roscommon) Fennigan (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Flanagan (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Healy (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Walsh (Swinford,Mayo,Ireland) Moran (Mayo,Ireland) McLoughlan (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Dolan (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Feeney (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Neilan (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Gorrick (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Hynes (Galway/Roscommon,IRL) Kelly (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Gallagher (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Gerraghty (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Keghran (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Butler (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Hoare (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Fallon (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Mullen (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) MacLean Mannion (Roscommon) Welsh (Mayo,Ireland) Breathnach (Mayo,Ireland) Hines (Galway,Ireland) O`Donnell (Donegal,Ireland) McLain (Scotland) MacLean (Scotland) Hughes (Roscommon) LYON (Roscommon) Layne (Ireland).

    Recognize any surnames in there Kelly of course... she has upwards to 10 Kelly cousins and a ton of other ones with that ancestry and one McDermott cousin and a few with that ancestry (not sure if it's from Roscommon or not though at the moment)...

    Another family I noticed my mother's has a ton of matches with (20+) are O'Sullivans/Sullivans ;-)! Probably O'Sullivan Mor and Beare (such as one cousin with that ancestry has a quarter of their family from the Isle of Beare etc and Sullivan ancestry)... that is interesting in that when O'Sullivan Beare marched through Lorrha and Dorrha the MacEgans attacked them (Mom has a lot of Egans that show up in her matches in fact a 2nd cousin perhaps I think that Egan shows up as my 3rd cousin would have to check notes) and also eventually the moved through Kelly lands... so I guess even the ancestors were fighting each other: "The convoy continued north over the Galtee mountains and through Tipperary. They suffered frequent attacks from their enemies but were successful in driving them off. During this part of the march, O’ Sullivan’s wife had to give her 2-year-old son into the safe-keeping of a servant. This servant was able to escape and afterwards get the child safely to Spain.

    On the ninth day of their trek the convoy, closely pursued by their enemies, crossed the Shannon near Portland in north Tipperary. They used the skins of a dozen horses to make curraghs and they carried the flesh for food. As they crossed the river they were attacked by Donough Mc Egan, the sheriff of Tipperary, who tried to throw some of the women and children into the river. O’Sullivan killed the sheriff himself and the pursuers fled leaving many dead.

    Their journey now took them through O’Kelly lands and here they had to fight many skirmishes. They also raided the villages in the search for food."

    Just thought I'd shoot you some Irish discussion we might well be related some where in there ;-)!

    For the rebel ancestors (of which apparently there were many hah!)...

    Óró, sé do bheatha 'bhaile,
    Charlie "Cathal Dubh"

    Quick edit" Also I have to look into our O'Hanrahan ancestry that is also via the O'Dwyers, but while the O'Dwyers appear connected to the Munster ancestry "migration" the O'Hanrahans appear connected to the "Leinster" migration connection I get at ancestry (and an interesting bit a son of my Mom's older sister O'Dwyer and my 1st cousin - he got the Munster, but not the Leinster migration in his results hmm) - so probably from Cork or further East? Mom has a couple O'Hanrahan cousins - one possibly from around Coosheen - in Cork? Interested in that family as the Easter Rising O'Hanrahans (Michael and brother Henry) came from Wexford and Mom does in fact get Bolger and other ancestry from Wexford in her matches also! I have often wondered where the Wexford connection was from - maybe that is it. There is also O'Connell from Clare that has O'Hanrahan ancestry... Also I checked MacDonagh (commander above M. O'Hanrahan in the Easter Rising) and his family was from a few miles (hmm perhaps 10?) south of Lorrha and Dorrha at Cloughjordan in Tipperary and in fact Mom also has a McDonagh cousin!

    2nd Edit: I took a look at those Driscolls - were married at Skibbereen and lived at Myross in Cork... but the male Driscoll married a cousin female Driscoll also from Cork... and also married (over in the States) with Kellys and Conneelys (they ended up in Glan, Galway) and also O'Sullivans and Joyces (they ended up in Dooghta Fair, Dooghta, Galway, Ireland...) any of that ring a bell (in addition to all that Roscommon ancestry above :-)?

    My mother gets so many matches - still trying to sort them all out etc... been to Ireland once and didn't know all this, was just a bit aware of the O'Dwyer legacy, but that was it. Time to go back with my Mom in tow!!
    Last edited by Bollox79; 04-26-2020 at 01:20 AM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely Rhineland German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurdur J. Eysteinsson View Post
    Hi! I'm T2a1a and I'm from Iceland. My Icelandic paper trail ends 7 generations back in 1742 and is confirmed 6 generations back by a match.
    I have no idea whether it goes farther back in time in Iceland or if it came to Iceland from the UK or somewhere else before that!
    I have many unexplained autosomal DNA matches from the UK and it's former colonies... this might be one of the explanations... but I don't know.
    Ahh additionally I wanted to point out our connection to Scandinavia and Northern Iceland (see my maternal line matches with ancient DNA in my signature!) - T2b2b seems to have a connection between Ireland/Scotland and Scandinavia and especially SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland!! He was roughly half Norse and half Gael - classic Norse-Gael I1 on his Y-DNA and T2b2b on his mtDNA ;-)! On of his "kinsman?" buried near him when I checked his Y-DNA group - was a very Irish one! Four burials were found there - one woman and three men. It is an interesting thought - perhaps a connection or coincidence? Vikings raided through Lower Ormond where my maternal line O'Danagher comes from!! Found this via Lorrha and Dorrha parish history etc: "In 843 a Norse expedition led by Turgesius raided Lorrha and neighbouring Terryglass.[4] Close to an historic crossing point of the River Shannon, the area has a long history of bridges and ferry crossings. The present Portumna bridge dates from 1911 [5] (opening section replaced October 2008 [6])"

    Cheers,
    Charlie
    Last edited by Bollox79; 04-25-2020 at 11:30 PM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely Rhineland German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

  9. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Concerning the Colways - I have found it spelled Cowhey or Cowhay (including my ancestor Martin spelled Cowhey/Cowhay) in the census also so there is that also: "The surname Cowhey was first found in County Cork, Roscommon and Meath, where the claim descent from the Irish monarch, Luy Mac Con, from the line of Ithe Kings, ancestor of Cobthach Fion, who in turn was the ancestor of the name Coffey or Caughey (both pronounced the same way). The O'Coffeys of Corcaloidhe are kin of the O'Driscolls, and are still common in southwest County Cork today." A quick search of my Mother's cousins turns up O'Driscolls from the South and in fact from Skibereen in SW Cork etc...

    Her ancestry is as follows as I think she is possibly from Roscommon - but I won't list her name since it's on my list as a match and I should keep it private etc: Lane Leane (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Lean (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) McLane Connolly (Athleague,County Roscommon) Fennigan (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Flanagan (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Healy (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Walsh (Swinford,Mayo,Ireland) Moran (Mayo,Ireland) McLoughlan (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Dolan (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Feeney (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Neilan (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Gorrick (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Hynes (Galway/Roscommon,IRL) Kelly (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Gallagher (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Gerraghty (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Keghran (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Butler (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Hoare (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Fallon (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) Mullen (Athleague,Roscommon,Ireland) MacLean Mannion (Roscommon) Welsh (Mayo,Ireland) Breathnach (Mayo,Ireland) Hines (Galway,Ireland) O`Donnell (Donegal,Ireland) McLain (Scotland) MacLean (Scotland) Hughes (Roscommon) LYON (Roscommon) Layne (Ireland).

    Another family I noticed my mother's has a ton of matches with (20+) are O'Sullivans/Sullivans ;-)! Probably O'Sullivan Mor and Beare (such as one cousin with that ancestry has a quarter of their family from the Isle of Beare etc and Sullivan ancestry)... that is interesting in that when O'Sullivan Beare marched through Lorrha and Dorrha the MacEgans attacked them (Mom has a lot of Egans that show up in her matches in fact a 2nd cousin perhaps I think that Egan shows up as my 3rd cousin would have to check notes) and also eventually the moved through Kelly lands... so I guess even the ancestors were fighting each other: "The convoy continued north over the Galtee mountains and through Tipperary. They suffered frequent attacks from their enemies but were successful in driving them off. During this part of the march, O’ Sullivan’s wife had to give her 2-year-old son into the safe-keeping of a servant. This servant was able to escape and afterwards get the child safely to Spain.

    Also I checked MacDonagh (commander above M. O'Hanrahan in the Easter Rising) and his family was from a few miles (hmm perhaps 10?) south of Lorrha and Dorrha at Cloughjordan in Tipperary and in fact Mom also has a McDonagh cousin!

    2nd Edit: I took a look at those Driscolls - were married at Skibbereen and lived at Myross in Cork... but the male Driscoll married a cousin female Driscoll also from Cork... and also married (over in the States) with Kellys and Conneelys (they ended up in Glan, Galway) and also O'Sullivans and Joyces (they ended up in Dooghta Fair, Dooghta, Galway, Ireland...) any of that ring a bell (in addition to all that Roscommon ancestry above :-)?
    I went to school with a girl named Coffey. She was actually an Irish traveller but Coffey isn’t typically a traveller surname. In Connacht, they were meant to be a branch of Uí Maine (the same clan as my Kelly family). There are a few Coffey families where I’m from but I don’t know any by name. Based on your information, yours might be from Cork though.

    I have some Dwyer relatives in another town in Roscommon. They were mentioned as cousins in the obituary of my great grandfather’s brother. Unfortunately, time and distance seem to have made us forget the relationship that existed. I think that I know where the connection may be since a DNA match has a DNA match married to Frehill which was my 3x great grandmother’s surname so possibly sisters.

    I only have Kellys and Flanagans in my tree from that list. My Kellys were from the Athleague area at some point but before baptism records. My earliest tracked ancestor was in the Castlerea area in North Roscommon as were the Flanagans. There are plenty with the surnames Walsh, Moran, Mullen, Lyons and Mannion from that area but none in my tree as direct ancestors.

    I have a 3x great grandmother who was Egan but once again from the Castlerea area. My great grandmother was Flynn from between Castlerea and Ballinlough. O’Sullivan also travelled through O’Flynn’s Country. He seems to have been aided by O’Flynn guides. I have a book with a long account of it but I don’t have it on hand. He made his escape across Ballymoe and over O’Flynn’s mountain avoiding the village of Ballinlough which lay beside O’Flynn’s Lake. He camped overnight in the woods north of the village where he was befriended by the O’Flynns from their castle on the hill. Such befriending would not have been seen in a favourable light by the pursuing crown forces. However, around 20 years before Fiachra O’Flynn of Ballinlough, chief of his name, had refused to sign the Indenture and Compossicion of Conoght. His son Thomas had been hanged at Roscommon the following year. In 1650, Cromwell's council ordered the arrest of Fiachra O'Flynn ("armed and dangerous") for resisting the Commonwealth. Being the English ruler’s good books may not have been a high priority in the eyes of the O'Flynn. That episode with O’Sullivan also probably provoked the English authorities to severe action against the O’Flynns but in addition the subsequent treatment and punishment of the O’Flynns served as a reminder to all those who might contemplate rebellion that retribution would be awesome. The O’Flynn castle was destroyed in 1650. There is a tradition that many of O'Sullivan Beare's followers dropped off here and there on the route and settled in friendly places. There is evidence of this in O'Flynn's Country with southern names such as Carty, McCarthy and O'Callaghan that can trace their roots back to that time. There are people bearing these surnames in the area.

    The O’Connors were hostile to O’Sullivan Beare and his people, whereas the O’Flynns were supportive. They developed a very close relationship with the O’Connors – the high kings of Ireland and never failed to provide support for the O’Connors whenever they were engaged in military adventures. The O’Floinn chieftain was conferred with the unique honour of riding the horse of the high king of Ireland. This was a huge honour and reflected the trust of the O’Connors in the O’Flynns. They had in fact emerged as the “praetorian guard” (i.e. the equivalent of the Roman Emperors personal guard). That very close relationship between the O’Flynns and the O’Connors came to an end in Elizabethan times. The O’Flynn continued to be the dominant Gaelic chieftains in Ballinlough until the 16th century when they were dispossessed of their castle by the Elizabethans and the castle was ultimately destroyed by the Cromwellians. The O’Flynns lost out because they refused to conform to the demands of the English authorities on many fronts. They were politically naïve whereas the O’Connors were politically very savvy and astute. The O’Connors held on to much of their land and retained their status as landlords, the O’Flynns did neither – hence the parting of the ways and the O’Connors benefited from the dispersal of the O’Flynn property.

    My 2x great grandmother was McDonagh but from the Ballinagare area of Roscommon.

    My grandmother was a Conneally (various spellings including Conneely – my dad actually recently gave my mum a different spelling than what his mother used when my mum was filling out a form looking for his mother’s maiden name). My Conneallys were from the Williamstown area of Co. Galway.

    Yeah there's a massive tangle of matches that aren't so easy to sort when your ancestors are all from the one area unless a match has a really good tree.
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Y-DNA (P) ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    mtDNA (P) ancestor: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA (M) ancestor: McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA Great grandfather: Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)
    Y-DNA 2x great grandfather: Higgins b. c1816 in Co. Roscommon (R-DF109)
    Y-DNA 3x great grandfather: Fleming b. c1829 in Co. Roscommon (R-Z23534)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FionnSneachta View Post
    I went to school with a girl named Coffey. She was actually an Irish traveller but Coffey isn’t typically a traveller surname. In Connacht, they were meant to be a branch of Uí Maine (the same clan as my Kelly family). There are a few Coffey families where I’m from but I don’t know any by name. Based on your information, yours might be from Cork though.

    I have some Dwyer relatives in another town in Roscommon. They were mentioned as cousins in the obituary of my great grandfather’s brother. Unfortunately, time and distance seem to have made us forget the relationship that existed. I think that I know where the connection may be since a DNA match has a DNA match married to Frehill which was my 3x great grandmother’s surname so possibly sisters.

    I only have Kellys and Flanagans in my tree from that list. My Kellys were from the Athleague area at some point but before baptism records. My earliest tracked ancestor was in the Castlerea area in North Roscommon as were the Flanagans. There are plenty with the surnames Walsh, Moran, Mullen, Lyons and Mannion from that area but none in my tree as direct ancestors.

    I have a 3x great grandmother who was Egan but once again from the Castlerea area. My great grandmother was Flynn from between Castlerea and Ballinlough. O’Sullivan also travelled through O’Flynn’s Country. He seems to have been aided by O’Flynn guides. I have a book with a long account of it but I don’t have it on hand. He made his escape across Ballymoe and over O’Flynn’s mountain avoiding the village of Ballinlough which lay beside O’Flynn’s Lake. He camped overnight in the woods north of the village where he was befriended by the O’Flynns from their castle on the hill. Such befriending would not have been seen in a favourable light by the pursuing crown forces. However, around 20 years before Fiachra O’Flynn of Ballinlough, chief of his name, had refused to sign the Indenture and Compossicion of Conoght. His son Thomas had been hanged at Roscommon the following year. In 1650, Cromwell's council ordered the arrest of Fiachra O'Flynn ("armed and dangerous") for resisting the Commonwealth. Being the English ruler’s good books may not have been a high priority in the eyes of the O'Flynn. That episode with O’Sullivan also probably provoked the English authorities to severe action against the O’Flynns but in addition the subsequent treatment and punishment of the O’Flynns served as a reminder to all those who might contemplate rebellion that retribution would be awesome. The O’Flynn castle was destroyed in 1650. There is a tradition that many of O'Sullivan Beare's followers dropped off here and there on the route and settled in friendly places. There is evidence of this in O'Flynn's Country with southern names such as Carty, McCarthy and O'Callaghan that can trace their roots back to that time. There are people bearing these surnames in the area.

    The O’Connors were hostile to O’Sullivan Beare and his people, whereas the O’Flynns were supportive. They developed a very close relationship with the O’Connors – the high kings of Ireland and never failed to provide support for the O’Connors whenever they were engaged in military adventures. The O’Floinn chieftain was conferred with the unique honour of riding the horse of the high king of Ireland. This was a huge honour and reflected the trust of the O’Connors in the O’Flynns. They had in fact emerged as the “praetorian guard” (i.e. the equivalent of the Roman Emperors personal guard). That very close relationship between the O’Flynns and the O’Connors came to an end in Elizabethan times. The O’Flynn continued to be the dominant Gaelic chieftains in Ballinlough until the 16th century when they were dispossessed of their castle by the Elizabethans and the castle was ultimately destroyed by the Cromwellians. The O’Flynns lost out because they refused to conform to the demands of the English authorities on many fronts. They were politically naïve whereas the O’Connors were politically very savvy and astute. The O’Connors held on to much of their land and retained their status as landlords, the O’Flynns did neither – hence the parting of the ways and the O’Connors benefited from the dispersal of the O’Flynn property.

    My 2x great grandmother was McDonagh but from the Ballinagare area of Roscommon.

    My grandmother was a Conneally (various spellings including Conneely – my dad actually recently gave my mum a different spelling than what his mother used when my mum was filling out a form looking for his mother’s maiden name). My Conneallys were from the Williamstown area of Co. Galway.

    Yeah there's a massive tangle of matches that aren't so easy to sort when your ancestors are all from the one area unless a match has a really good tree.
    Same here massive tangle!!! Thanks for the share - gave ya some rep!

    Yep I recognize MacCarthy as a more southern surname SW really with the O'Dwyers and MacCarthy and McCarthy show up often in my mother's match. A quick search turns up a 3rd to 5th McCarthy cousin from Tipperary married to the McGraths. I also did notice in either my Uncle O'Dwyer's FTDNA or my Ancestry results there were clusters of McCarthys, McGraths, and O'Meaghers who ended up in New South Wales as convicts - so we get a ton of those over in NSW. Anytime I identify a possible "cluster" of related surnames especially in the area of Clare, Tipperary etc since a lot of our family came from that area I make a note of the relationship in my "research interests" at my ancestry account so I don't forget about it! I have my Uncle's and Mom's and my results at FTDNA - I have tested at Ancestry and I want to test Mom and Uncle etc etc there to. This is what I had on those related surnames at my research interests: In my Uncle O'Dwyer's matches I find McCarthy, McGrath, and O'Meagher ancestry from Tipperary and also Clare and they ended up in Australia similar to the O'Dwyers and O'Byrnes - probably as rebel convicts! With the McCarthy ancestry a bunch of other cousins with Irish ancestry also have that in their family tree. Also speaking of O'Callaghan - Mom has an Irish 3rd to 5th cousin O'Callaghan and other Callaghan cousins - no more info on him other than he is Irish and the total shared CMs is higher than the usual level for that level of "cousin"... one with that ancestry from Cork etc etc.

    I need to get my Mom on Ancestry as I am pretty sure there are more people with Irish ancestry on Ancestry than on FTDNA... since she is a generation closer (and my Uncle!) I'd like to see her matching and I like the way thrulines gives you hints to common ancestors and dna matching - I've made a lot of progress with it with colonial family on both sides - 1600s into 1700s in the Colonies.

    Yes my O'Coffee was spelled also Colway eventually on the American census and Lorrha parish record, but also Cowhay and Cowhey... also might have been spelled Cowlrey... you know how the Irish didn't always translate well into English etc. I still have yet to figure out exactly the connection through our different Irish lines to Roscommon - but I've seen it off and one... it's kind of like take your local, native cluster and take descendants from that kind of unit from all over Ireland and then marry them and you get my Irish matches lol... even into the Scottish Highlanders though not surprising they were all Jacobites anyway for the most part so makes sense.

    As far as Flynn - Mom does in fact have a 4th cousins Flynn - he's Irish American - but both parents from Ireland. Flynn from Mayo (though the locations don't go very far back on that line) along with Monaghan, Hughes, Deely, and Mullins. I know off the top of my head I've recorded a cousin or more for my results that has Irish Mannions in their tree as I'd never heard that surname before.

    I known I've read that the O'Duibhirs (O'Dwyers) had relations further back in time with the O'Conners (going from memory I think post Clontarf they were listed as marrying O'Kennedy, O'Brien and O'Connor women - so perhaps did well for themselves after?) - also according to Keating they were marshals of O'Brien's warband per this bit here I found and they tie together some surnames: "John O'Hart ties together the ancient genealogies of Ryan, O'Dwyer, Carroll/McCarvill, Lee/Leary, Kennedy/Cannady, Gorman, Keogh/Cahoo. Additionally found this bit: Centered in or near the baronies of Kilnamanagh in co. Tipperary, and the neighboring barony of Coonagh in Co. Limerick. The Eoganacht Caille na Manach (aka Eoganacht Beag Chaisil) were centered in the barony of Kilnamanagh in west co. Tipperary. The Eoganacht of Durlas Airthir Cliach were said to be centered near Thurles, co. Tipperary, just east of the northern Kilnamanagh region. The Eoganacht Mhór Mumhan were cited in the barony of Middlethird, co. Tipperary, just east of he southern Kilnamanagh region. Another location is cited south of Kilnamanagh, in the barony of Clanwilliam, co. Tipperary."

    "The Ó Dubhuidhir (Ó Duibhir or O'Dwyer) were noted as chiefs in in the barony of Kilnamanagh, County Tipperary. Keating (History) note the O Duibhidhir of Coill na Manach (Kilnamanagh) and Mag Cormain were the O'Brien's marshals of the hosts. In O'Clerys genealogies the O'Dwyers are listed under the lineage of the Osraighe."

    "Their near neighbors included: The O'Cuirc (O'Quirke) who ruled over a considerable territory in Clanwilliam prior to the Norman settlement, with their territory then known as Muscraighe Cuirc (aka Múscraige Breogain). O'Cuillen (O'Cullen) were cited as chiefs of Eoghanacht Aradh in the barony of Owney and Arad. Mac Ui Bhrian (Mac I Brien), a Dalcassian sept, were lords of Owney and Arra, their territory anciently referred to as Aradh Cliach and acquired from the O'Donegans around 1300." Mom does in fact have four Cullen matches... five O'Briens... and other cousins with that ancestry etc.

    We do in fact see a lot of Ryans, Kennedys (though they may be through O'Dwyer or maybe through Cowhey as they married O'Kennedys in Lorrha), some Gormans, and Mom has an Irish O'Carroll distant cousin and a lot of Carroll cousins - and for sure a Keogh probably from Tipperary... more often you see over here in America they are all minus the O'. I've added the O' back to O'Dwyer in my family tree to make a point and take it back along with the other Irish names! So perhaps there is some truth to that cluster based in that area of Tipperary... I think with Irish tribal families and their traditional allies we can see back a bit further since they stuck together and intermarried often.

    Naturally I'd like to enter my Uncle O'Duibhir into that Y-DNA study when I have the cash flow!

    I see cousins with Conner ancestry, but not direct O'Conner cousin like the other surnames... maybe show up on ancestry for Mom and Uncle.

    Let's see - speaking of Connolly (or variation) Mom has an Irish Connolly 3rd-5th cousin Connolly born in England to Irish parents - a Connolly from Limerick and McCabe from Leitrim. Speaking of Connolly and Galway - I see a 5th cousin Connolly who ended up over here in Pennsylvania and his Connollys were from around Moycullen in Galway. Then there is another 5th cousin Connolly who has this ancestry, but not much else listed: clune (ireland) connolly emerson (ireland) mc brearty (ireland) donnelly (ireland). More cousins with different surnames, but the Connolly ancestry - I see that often when I have memorized enough of the surnames, I often see them in the trees of other Irish and Irish Americans... also a 3rd to 5th cousin Marum (that from Kilkenny) with O'Kelly from Limerick and O'Connolly from Kilkenny. Other surnames are Brannigan (Kilkenny), O'Quinn and Harney (Waterford?), McCormack, Murphy and O'Doyle (Kildare), Fitzgerald (Limerick), Lysaght and Sheils (Limerick), and Tenison (Kilkenny) so you can see even some of the Irish cousins have ancestry from different places.

    There is an Irish O'Shea in there or O'Shee - they married with O'Dwyers back in time - maybe it's from that relationship.

    Ton of Murphy cousins in her matches similar to the O'Sullivans (not sure if that means closer relation, or just more from that group or fam have happened to have tested etc).

    As you said - quite the mess of ancestry and matching - we also get Northern matches and surnames - probably related to the Maguires such as O'Donnells from Tyrconnell and O'Neils from around Tyrone (that all shows up in a McCabe cousin actually) and actual O'Neil(l)s and O'Donnells as cousins and MacDonnell or McDonnells (really MacDonalds of the Isles and Clan Rannald). MacDonalds of Barra and Milton and South Uist (family of Flora MacDonald), MacNeils of Barra (we have a cousin that is in direct descent of that family) and MacLeans of Barra show up clearly in my Mom's results also. They mixed with MacDougalls and MacKinnons and show up in that mixture up in Nova Scotia as we get a number of distant cousins from up there in the Scottish areas such as Prince Edward Island and Cape Breton. The MacDonalds of Morar and a 4th cousin with the Y-DNA group and direct descent from the Allen MacDonalds of Clan Ranald aka The MacDonalds of Morar styled MacDhughail. This family long held a prominent position in Inverness-shire. It descended from Allan MacRuari, one of the most famous of the distinguished chiefs of Clan Ranald, who was executed for treasonable actions at Blair-Athole in 1509. That 4th cousins MacDonald doesn't show up in either Mom's or Uncle's results and neither do two Frasers from the Highlands (they are from there) and half their ancestry including MacDonald is from Reef in the Isle of Lewis - those don't show up with Mom or Uncle either so I am thinking it is on my father's side with his Jacobites, but need to test my Aunt (his sister) to be sure etc. Also some ancestry from Armagh off the top of my head. MacAulays and possibly O'Currans and Gordons from Antrim - in fact in my results a Northern Irish Curran shows up in the ancestry of a Scottish Fraser woman from Isle of Bute... so more tangles of relation!

    Considering the tangle - I mentioned that certain matches don't show up in Mom's or Uncle's results - but Mom does get these guys per a cousin match via my research interests: Mum's MacDonald cousin from Ness, Isle of Lewis (parents MacDonald - Stornoway/Lewis and mother MacLean - Ness/Lewis) - her ancestry are theses clans from Isle of Lewis and Ross-shire: MacDonald, MacLean, Morrison, MacFarlane, Gunn, Smith, MacKenzie, Gillies, Campbell.

    I also get this match - though I think it might be through my Dad's side? Though on Mom's MacAulay side we MAY have Gordons from Inverness since I've had a DNA suggestion for the MacAulays from Antrim: I have a 2nd - 4th cousin Paterson with both sides from Scotland with this Highland ancestry: MacFarlane, Farquharson (more than once) MacHardy, McRobbie, Grant... and other Scottish surnames. Forbes also - many of these families from Strathdon, Aberdeenshire, Scotland.

    Through my Uncle's results (and eventually Mom's):3rd cousins Gilchrists and another 4th cousin Gilchrist (and a couple more 4th cousins of a different surname, but have the MacGilchrist ancestry from same group of families in Canada) (the 3rd cousin Gilchrists and 4th cousin Gilchrist have different maternal lines/ancestry) show what families we all have in familiar. MacGilchrist of Islay, MacArthur, Calder and MacNeil (again!)... some ended up in Canada. Additionally - traditionally: The MacGilchrists are associated with these Highland families: MacSweeneys, Lamonts, MacLachlans, MacSorley, and MacEwans (and possibly O'Neills and/or MacNeils.

    When I enter Mom into gedmatch and those calculators - they like to make her Orcadian or Scottish Argyll and Bute depending... or Irish perhaps. Don't know how much to really read into that though they are more just for fun.

    As you can imagine it's still a work in progress! Thanks for the discussion!

    Cheers,
    Charlie "Cathal Dubh"

    Edit P.S.: about the travelers I read they did a few genetic studies on them and they are pretty sure they are those families displaced in rebellions (such as in the 1600s and Cromwell's time a bit later) and were shoved to the West. They branch off a while back, but overall are similar to modern Irish and not some random gypsy group. I know I've watched a bit on Ole Bartley Gorman the bareknuckle Champ as we have Gorman in the fam... and he listed his ancestry with Maguire and O'Neill so you had some Northern surnames in there.

    Also I found perhaps a rebel line in my old Massachusetts colonial family. The Durkees or O'Durgy or O'Durge - from around Drogheda in Meath - seems to be some record for an Irishman from that area who had his parents (a Chieftain or Captain in the fight?) killed by Cromwell at Drogheda - he was sent as a slave to the Caribbean and managed to become indentured to a ship's Captain who brought him to early Mass. Earliest Irishman recorded in the colonies in fact. At first I was a bit suspicious of this tale, but there does seem to be record of an Irishman named Durkee or Durge who was in the Caribbean and came with a Captain. They married with my English Wheelers - most of those early colonials were English - but they also married with Munroes from Alvie or Aldie in Inverness... anyway they all redeemed themselves by throwing all that tea into the ocean and refusing to pay their taxes bahahaha - that is on Mom's side - the number of them that served during our Rev. War is impressive as I'm currently writing up a list of veterans of colonial conflicts and I'm already over 50 men and that doesn't even include the Scots and Scots Irish and Lutheran German pioneers on my father's side!!!! Those Wheelers were quite the colonial military family with one even known as Captain Thomas "The Indian Fighter" Wheeler - he along with Captain Hutchinson (related to my Clark(e)s on that side) and Lt. Davis (also related through marriage) were ambushed at "Wheeler's Surprise" and made it back to the block house to under go a siege. Capt. Hutchinson was killed and Capt. Wheeler and his son wounded - this being during King Philip's War in the early colonies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%27s_Surprise
    Last edited by Bollox79; 04-30-2020 at 08:06 AM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely Rhineland German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

  12. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Same here massive tangle!!! Thanks for the share - gave ya some rep!
    Mannion is quite a common name where my family are from. It's pronounced 'man-yun'. They are family most numerous in the west of Ireland and most numerous in Galway followed by Roscommon as seen here: https://www.johngrenham.com/findasur...urname=Mannion They are supposed to be descended from a pre-Gaelic race.

    Of course, most surnames have multiple origins. For example, there were the O'Conors of Connacht who were the last high kings of Ireland but there was another O'Connor family with lands around Offaly. I don't get too excited if I have a Kelly autosomal match since it's the second most common surname in Ireland. All the male Kelly matches on 23andMe have a different haplogroup to my dad. That is likely why you have so many Murphy matches since it's the most common surname in Ireland rather than indicating relatively recent Murphy ancestors.

    Most people in Ireland tend to forgo the O' in the surname. It's only commonly used really with certain surnames like O'Connell, O'Reillys, O'Brien, O'Donnell, O'Connor, O'Dea, O'Shea, O'Driscoll, O'Gara, O'Grady, O'Hara, O'Halloran, O'Keeffe, O'Leary, O'Malley, O'Neill, O'Rourke, O'Sullivan, O'Toole, O'Dwyer, etc. where the O' seems to sound naturally good with the surname in English.

    The Connolly surname is common all around Ireland. The Conneally form is particularly numerous in Galway. This name stands for at least two Irish names: Ó Conghaile, Connacht and Ulster; Ó Conghalaigh, Munster and Connacht. Woulfe mentions four septs: a family of the southern Uí Néill who were eventually settled in Monaghan: a group in Clare said to be descended from Mahon, brother of Brian Boru. Also there were two septs in Connacht. Where my family were from in Williamstown, they used different spellings to differentiate between the different families in the area to lessen mixing up people since Conneally and variants are so numerous there.

    As you say, I wouldn't give GEDmatch too much notice. The K13 says that I'm Irish, my dad is West Scottish, my mum is Norwegian and my great aunt is Southwest English.

    Yes, Irish travellers have their ancestry based in Ireland. They're thought to be descended from people who were displaced by Cromwell and the Plantations. Travellers are now as genetically different from the settled Irish as are the Spanish. They are regarded as an ethnic minority. The reason that I mention that Coffey isn't considered a typical traveller name is because there are certain surnames associated with travellers. These include McDonagh, Ward, Mongan, Stokes, Connors, Maughan, etc. Of course there are lots with these surnames who don't have traveller ancestry. I know Wards and McDonaghs who aren't of traveller ancestry for example with McDonagh being a surname in my own family and Cassie Stokes is a presenter in Ireland.

    The massacre carried out by Cromwell in Drogheda, Co. Louth is infamous. All of the officers in that tower were killed, and the ranks were decimated. The remainder of the men from the first tower, along with the soldiers in the other were deported to Barbados. Cromwell wrote a letter on September 17th 1649 saying not even 30 of the enemy escaped with their lives and those that did are in safe custody for Barbados. Soldiers were definitely transported but I don't think it's certain about families. However, in 1654, the governors of several Irish counties were ordered to arrest "all wanderers, men and women, and such other Irish within their precincts as should not prove they had such a settled course of industry as yielded them a means of their own to maintain them, all such children as were in hospitals or workhouses, all prisoners, men and women, to be transported to the West Indies." Ordinary people did get sent away as well but after the siege of Drogheda.
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Y-DNA (P) ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    mtDNA (P) ancestor: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA (M) ancestor: McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA Great grandfather: Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)
    Y-DNA 2x great grandfather: Higgins b. c1816 in Co. Roscommon (R-DF109)
    Y-DNA 3x great grandfather: Fleming b. c1829 in Co. Roscommon (R-Z23534)

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     Bollox79 (05-01-2020)

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