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Thread: BREAKING! Either 1400+ year old Albanian community in France, or Illyrians confirmed

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    BREAKING! Either 1400+ year old Albanian community in France, or Illyrians confirmed

    In the middle of Savoie, in the Auvergne-Rhone Alps region of France, there is a valley called the Arvan Valley (Vallee des Arves) surrounded by many more Alb/Arb/ARv toponyms. These toponyms are off course named after the Arverni tribe, a large ancient celtic tribe from which the Auvergne region derives its name.

    What is shocking though is that these people in this region have an extremely similar folk dress to Albanian highlanders!

    This has so many ramifications guys! It changes European historiography, linguistics, archeology. Eureka!

    Any Arverni french here?

    Text:

    In Fig. A1 - Fig. A7 we see the folkloric costumes worn by women from villages in the “Arvan Valley” (Vallée de l'Arve) of the Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes region of Savoie, France. The Auvergne name is derived from an ancient celtic tribe called the “Arverni.” This folkloric costume is famed for being distinct and unlike the other folkloric costumes from the region and other French folk costumes in general. This discontinuity with other French folk costumes suggests an external or different influence on the material culture.


    In Fig. B1 - Fig. B7 we see the “Xhubleta,” the undulating, bell shaped dress worn by Albanian women. This is a distinctively Albanian dress and nothing approaching it in likeness or construction is worn by any other ethnic group in the Balkans, Europe, or its neighbouring continents. It is mostly worn in the Malesia e Madhe region of Albanian territories. The Xhubleta is constructed in a very specific way with archaic techniques and materials that have been used since ancient times. In youth, the Xhubleta is striped white and black, and becomes black in its entirety only once a woman marries. In some regions it is said that a red Xhubleta was worn on the wedding day. The Xhubleta is very heavy due to its thick woolen and felt construction and reaches up to 15-20kgs with all it’s ornamentation and component parts worn together. Other distinct features of the Xhubleta are the symbols that are woven into its striping, its apron, the shoulder pads/cinctures, the shoulder straps that carry it, the broad “hook” belt/panel that is worn over it, the cloth worn over the shoulders with hanging cinctures, “stockings” and symbols that code for social information about status, clan, village, etc.


    If we compare the costumes and component parts that we see in Figures. A1 - A7 with those in Figrures. B1 - B7, we see that almost all of the Xhubleta’s distinct features have been retained in the costumes of the Arvan Valley, while replacing some archaic features and materials, adding pleats and losing the black and white version worn in youth (although the Arvan Valley dress also is different colored in youth). The bell shape of the dress is made by sewing strips on one after the other, each of which longer than the one before, make the garment wider and wider towards the bottom. In the Arvan Valley the strips have become finer while the Xhubleta has retained the more archaic form, with broad strips. Folkloric costume researcher Roman K. when analyzing the method of production of the Arvan Valley dress in his own words says:


    “The only other example of this kind of skirt construction which I know of is the Xhubleta of Albania . . . Why these two unrelated, widely separated regions uniquely use this method of construction, I have no idea. ”


    The distinct belt and style of apron has also been retained, while taking on more French characteristics with respect to ornamentation. The cloth with cinctures that is worn over the shoulders is likewise retained with only ornamental differences. The materials of the Xhubleta have been made lighter, although the Arvan Valley dress is still heavy, reaching up to 7kgs. Likewise aesthetic and stylistic features have been retained like the single coloured horizontal band in the adult dress. The process of making a Xhubleta is very difficult and meticulous, and takes more than 6 months to complete one dress, this seems to be the case with the Arvan Valley dress also.


    The more archaic nature of the materials and construction in the Xhubleta compared to the Arvan Valley costumes also suggest that it is basal and originary, as does the higher diversity of the costumes which differ with age and tribe/location in Albanian women. The cultural transmission of this dress and its production is therefore more likely to be in the direction of Albania to France rather than the other way around. Were it that the dresses of the Arvan Valley had only the bell shape element, we could speculate that it is just a coincidence, but in conjunction with all the other ensemblic parts such as the panel belt, the cloth, etc, it cannot be put down to just coincidence.


    This is corroborated and compounded upon by the male costumes we see in Fig. C1 - C2 and Fig. D1 - D2 which have retained the white woolen aspects of the male costume which were organically connected to the Albanian mode of life in the highlands and immediately accessible materials like wool, as well as the red sash (called the brez in Albanian) that in Albanian folkloric costumes was used to hold everyday items as well as daggers, revolvers and such. In Fig. D3 we see clearly how the male costume is part of a complementary pair with the Xhubleta. No other male costume past the Arvan Valley has these elements in precisely this conjunction.


    Further corroborating this transmission from Albania to France are the toponyms of villages and sites in the Arvan Valley (Fig. E1). There are at least 11 toponyms visible on Google Earth that are a variation of “Arvan/Alban” (both ethnonyms for Albanians). These toponyms end outside of this small ~10km x ~18km region although it's possible that there may be more inside of and in the near vicinity that are missed by Google Earth.


    It is incontestable that this material culture which is similar to that of the Albanians is inextricably coupled with the toponyms.


    Where these toponyms terminate outside of the Arvan Valley, so too do the shared features in the folkloric costumes, demonstrating that the Arvan Valley is the locus of this material culture in the region and also making it clear that cultural contact and transmission must have occurred sometime, somewhere, between the Albanians and the Arvan Valley folk.


    The Arvan Valley borders with the Piedmont region of Italy, which has the highest presence of the Y-DNA haplogroup J2B2-L283 for all of Italy. (See Fig. E1) J2B2-L283 is more densely concentrated in Albanians than any other ethnicity in the world, this points to the conclusion that the likely cultural transmission from Albanians to the Arvan Valley of Savoie that is suggested in the folkloric costumes seems to have also been connected with some migratory event or contact between the peoples that also entailed genetic transmission or settlements.


    The timeframe for when this event is most likely to have happened is the most unexpected considering how similar the folkloric elements are. These toponyms relating to the ethnonym of the Albanians (Alban, Arban, Arvan, Arber, Arben, etc) are attested to in the Arvan Valley since at least 739 AD (see Fi.g E2). Albiez de Jeune is referred to as “Colonica in Albiadis” in the Cartulaire de Grenoble by Saint Hugues (Fig. E2). The Albiez is mentioned in the Testament of Abbon as being among the parishes given to the Novalesa Abbey (in Piedmont) by Charlemagne.


    Considering this minimum of ~1380 years for this cultural transmission event, it is remarkable to see just how much the material culture has been preserved. Especially when taking into consideration more recent Albanian diaspora communities like the Arbereshe of Italy, who have evolved different costumes at a much faster rate.


    There are only two feasible explanations for both “Alb” toponyms/ethnonyms and Albanian like material culture appearing in the Arvan Valley, Savoie, France.


    Either:


    1. A migratory event of Albanians to Savoie happened at least ~1380 years ago (since by 739 AD we already have confirmed “Alb” toponyms). If this is the correct explanation then this means the Xhubleta has a confirmed existence of at least 1300+ years and that the historiography of Albanians in Europe can be pushed back 300 years earlier than the oldest document we currently have that mentions them (Bulgarian text that mentions “Arbanasi” once, 1000-1018).


    Or:


    2. The Arvan Valley and its material culture come from very ancient cultural substrate that was shared by both Illyrians and Celts who also used the “Alb” ethnonym i.e. as in the Arverni celts of France, Scotland’s “Alba” or the Illyrian “Albanopolis.” In ancient mythology Illyrius [father of Illyrians] is brothers with Celtus [father of Celts] and Galas [father of Gauls]). The famous celtic tribe of Arverni were one of the most powerful in ancient Gaul, and the Auvergne region derives their name from them. If this is the case, then the Xhubleta is a 2000+ year old Illyrian artefact that has survived in its most archaic and original form in the highlands of Albania and solidifies very strongly the argument for Illyrian-Albanian continuity while also having many other ramifications for Albanian, Celtic, Gaulish, Illyrian and European historiography, archeology, linguistic studies, etc. This also means that the Albanians and the Arverni of France have had shared ancient history and many unforeseeble ramifications and speculations follow. For example, did the English St. Alban’s mother wear a Xhubleta?


    In reading French historiographies on the Arvan Valley and the “Alb” related toponyms, the etymologies that are proposed focus only around possible celtic names related to the Arverni tribe and relations to the colour white in the nearby environs. Which is one factor making scenario 1 less likely to be the correct one.


    Of high relevance to consideration is the spike in J2b2-L283 in the Piedmont region. The oldest J2b2-L283 that has been found in Europe is in a skeleton that was found in Veliki Vanik, Croatia and dated 1600-1500 BC. This is the time and place that would have belonged to the proto-Illyrian culture as they were undergoing their ethnogenesis. The spike in Piedmont is as of yet unexplained, yet it borders with the Arvan Valley and the Novalesa Abbey (in Turin, Piedmont) that Charlemagne granted parishes from Albiez (in the Arvan Valley) to. It is also the site of the ancient town of Alba Pompeia which suggests a possible deeper connection meriting further investigation.


    In a study of Italian Y-dna lineages from late 2017, the authors of the paper suggest this explanation for the highest J2b2-L283 results in Piedmont (Tortona was the area tested from Piedmont in this study):


    Paraphrasing:


    “J2b-M241(J2b2-L283’s parent clade) marks a seaborne route whose contribution is still detectable along the Adriatic coast as well as in populations along the Po Valley, Italy.


    E1b-V13(also a haplogroup whose highest concentration is in Albanians) is also observed in Volterra and the Northern Italian groups, mainly in the most accessible areas. This observation supports a Balkan influence in Northern Italian populations as well, most likely through an Adriatic route and along the Po Valley and, to a lesser extent in lateral, more isolated, mountainous valleys. ”


    There are scholars like Julius Pokorny, a linguist specialized in Celtic languages, who connect the Celto-Ligurian theory to the Illyrians, and thus possibly corroborating this suggested Adriatic -> Po Valley route.


    Taking into account these two scenarios as possible explanations for the shared material culture and toponyms and weighing the evidence as it presents itself at this moment, the data points to scenario 2 being more likely, namely, that the Arverni and the Illyrians had a shared cultural substrate up to a point and retained similar material culture in their folklore. This would make the Xhubleta an artefact of immense interest for many intersecting fields.


    There are arguments prior to the Arvan Valley discovery that the Xhubleta represents Illyrian - Albanian cultural continuity. In Fig. F1 - Fig. F6 we see examples of similarity between Illyrian artefacts and elements of the Xhubleta ensemble as well as existing evidence of sharing a Southern European cultural and genetic substrate which increases likelihood of Illyrian - Albanian continuity.


    In Fig. G1 - Fig. G10 we see etymological, archaeological, and cultural speculation about the possible connections the Xhubleta may have to documented “bell shaped” dresses in the regions in which cultural transmission did happen for sure (as shown before in Fig. F5 and Fig. F6).

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    FULL IMGUR LINK: https://imgur.com/a/a54Lebx





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    The Arverni were present in the Massif Central, not in the Alps.

    The "Vallée de l'Arve" is named as such due the river the "Arve". It lies in Faucigny, and was home before the Roman conquest of the celtic tribes of the Allobroges and Ceutrons, perhaps also of Ligures.

    "Alba" is a common radical in Southern France.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    The Arverni were present in the Massif Central, not in the Alps.

    The "Vallée de l'Arve" is named as such due the river the "Arve". It lies in Faucigny, and was home before the Roman conquest of the celtic tribes of the Allobroges and Ceutrons, perhaps also of Ligures.

    "Alba" is a common radical in Southern France.
    The reason I associated with Arverni was occams razor. The earliest mention of Albanians as Albanians in a historical document that we have is from 1018 in a Bulgarian orthodox text where it is mentioned once as being a "half believe language."

    If it's not arverni related then it means that the Arvan Valley had to have had Albanians or sufficient contact with Albanians since at least 739 AD (Testament of Abbon) and had dealings with Charlemagne and somehow go unnoticed in European historiography.

    These shared folkloric costume features in both the male and female variant terminate outside of the Arvan Valley. Their bell dress is known as being so unique and defining compared to other french folk costumes to the point that they built a statue of it:







    It's highly unlikely that the "alba" toponyms are unrelated to Albanians and coincide so spectacularily with Albanian material culture, and then that these features in costumes end exactly where the Alba toponyms end...

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    Folkloric costume seems similar (with variations) with those from other valleys in Savoie/Dauphiné or even Massif Central.
    Alba is often used combined with another radical like in Alba Ruppe (Auberoche): white rock.
    I don't see clear links with Albania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Folkloric costume seems similar (with variations) with those from other valleys in Savoie/Dauphiné or even Massif Central.
    Alba is often used combined with another radical like in Alba Ruppe (Auberoche): white rock.
    I don't see clear links with Albania.
    The bell shape or the "magpie tails" as Roman K the folkloric costume researcher calls them and its necessary method of construction is extremely particular and appears only in Albania and the Arvan Vally. If you have photos of it appearing in nearby places then please post it, but the link is there and compounded upon by the other elements as well as the male costume also having shared elements. There is an abundance of links, not a lack. Please go through the entire imgur album i linked above. Look at the construction here there are even diagrams to make it a bit clearer.




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    Come one. French folk cosutmes were nothing such similar to Albanian as Polish mountaineers costumes (from Podhale)
    Better explore this simialrity









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    Those folk costumes are really not that old to make such a connection. What about linguistics?
    DEIBABOR
    IGO
    DEIBOBOR
    VISSAIEIGO
    BOR

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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    Come one. French folk cosutmes were nothing such similar to Albanian as Polish mountaineers costumes (from Podhale)
    Better explore this simialrity










    From the wiki:

    "The region is characterized by a rich tradition of folklore that is much romanticized in the Polish patriotic imagination. Its folklore was brought there mainly by Polish settlers from the Lesser Poland region further north and partly by Transylvanian settlers in the 14th–17th centuries during their migrations. "

    Very simple. Albanian and Romanian have many shared words, with the direction of borrowings going in the direction from Albania to Romania.

    This makes sense once you understand Illyrian history:

    Romans sold into slavery whole Illyrian tribes, mainly to Italy, others - almost completely exterminated, some the tribes themselves moved to Dacia.

    Quotes from Wikipedia:

    "The Amantines firmly resisted the Romans and after the defeat were sold into slavery."
    "Brevki lived in the middle reaches of the Sava between Vrbas and Drina, they were one of the strongest and most warlike tribes of the Union." In the 6th year, immediately after the Great Illyrian Uprising began, they joined the desyatyat under the leadership of Baton I. However, after the suppression of the uprising, they were sold into slavery During the reign of Trajan, Roman citizenship was granted, and later in the Roman army there were 9 cohortes of Breucorum, which also included representatives of other tribes, many of which moved to Dacia, where they gradually merged with the local m population. "
    "The Dalmatian tribes - pirusts and desidiata, almost insurmountable due to the inhabiting in the mountains, the indomitable nature, as well as the exceptional combat skills and mainly the narrowness of the wooded gorges, were suppressed only when they were almost completely killed not only under the leadership of Caesar, but by his own strength and weapons. "
    "The Dawns were the first to revolt under the leadership of the Balkans and the Danube region. The role of the Daesitiates in the rebellion was immense, which contributed to their ultimate disappearance. "
    "Pirustae along with other Pannonians and Illyrians like the Sardeates were later settled in Dacia."
    "Azali was the name of the Illyrian tribe." After the Great Illyrian Revolt the Azali were deported by the Romans. "
    "Sardeates or Sardiotai (Latin Sardeates) was an Illyrian tribe close to Jajce." Sardeates were later settled in Dacia. "
    "Baridustae were an Illyrian tribe that was later settled in Dacia along with Pirustae and Sardeates."
    "With the disintegration of the Roman Empire, the Gothic and Hunnic tribes raided the Balkan peninsula, forcing many Illyrians to seek refuge in the highlands."


    Funnily enough there is a spike of j2b2 - l283 in transylvanian alps




    These woolen pants with the black gajtan stripes (we call them Tirqe in Albanian) are definitely connected with the Albanian version. In linguistics you would say they are cognate, sharing the same root. I.e. at some point far back in the past they come from the same place. So, thanks for this enlightening information. It doesn't negate the fact that the bell shape of the dress in Arvan Valley is not found anywhere else except highlands of albania. It has the same black colour, the same singular stripe in similar location, the same belt, the similar cuffs.

    Its astronomical how similar they are with the minimum timeframe of separation (1380 years), maybe even a miracle.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Those folk costumes are really not that old to make such a connection.

    What folk costumes are not that old? Ok then, if they are young when did they get there? Do you have information about the age of Albanian folk costumes?

    Maybe i'm misjudging, but i am 99% sure you have never heard of the Xhubleta in your life before this thread, and now you are an expert?

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