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Thread: How much of my English ancestry is Celtic Briton?

  1. #11
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    bradly88, adding your Scandinavian, you may be about 80% British&Irish (FTDNA often reports British as Scandinavian, they do for me, about 15%). The Living DNA test is on sale for Father's Day for ~$79 and you might want to jump on that. They broke down my B&I ancestry by region/county quite well as it agrees fairly well with my known ancestry. Living DNA doesn't work for everyone but might be exactly what you're looking for.
     
    Estimated ancestry after reviewing Ancestry.com, 23&Me, FTDNA My Origins, Living DNA and known family history:
    33% English, 27% Scottish, 18% Welsh, 18% Irish, 4% German/Netherlands

    Y-DNA leads to Isle of Skye, Scottish Highlands: R1b>M343>L278>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L151/L11>P312>Z290>L21/M529>DF13>L513/DF1>S5668>A7>Z21253> S7834 > S7828 > BY11203 > BY11186 (about 320-550 years old)

    MTDNA leads to Glamorgan, South Wales: K1a4a1f

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Although it's difficult to be specific for an individual, it's broadly possible to say that people of early English origins have more pre- Anglo Saxon ancestry than post - Anglo Saxon Ancestry, some more than others. To define the English as "Anglo Saxon" just isn't accurate. How much significance an individual gives to their Y line to define themselves is a personal choice and matter of individual opinion usually influenced by emotions. Possibly women don't exist at all because they don't have Y DNA.
    That last sentence is just ridiculous in the extreme. Women have fathers, who were able to be their fathers because, to start with, they each have a y chromosome.

    And I didn't say women don't exist. I said y-dna is important. One can think y-dna is important without wanting women to cease to exist or thinking women are insignificant. I have three daughters and two granddaughters whom I love dearly. I love my wife, my mother, my sister and all my other female relatives, as well.

    Amazing how I can do all that and still think y-dna is important.

    The original poster wrote the following in his initial post:

    Quote Originally Posted by bradly88
    Any comment[s] are most welcome.
    I noticed he lists his y-dna haplogroup as R-U106, so I gave him some information. I thought he should get some kind of an answer to his question, because his Family Finder ethnic origins information wasn't up to the task.

    Note that I did not say, "The modern English are 100% early medieval Anglo-Saxon". I wouldn't say that, because, to begin with, it would be silly. The modern English are the modern English, and, like all modern people, they are a hodge-podge of many elements.

    Here's what I told him about his y-dna haplogroup:

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2
    Well, your y-dna haplogroup is believed to be a major lineage among the Germanic peoples, so if that line is English, it is more likely to be connected to the Anglo-Saxons or Vikings than to the Celtic Britons.
    That's perfectly true, and I suspect it's the part you didn't like, for whatever reason. But, good grief, telling a guy who says he is mostly English that if his U106 y-dna line is English it's probably Anglo-Saxon or Viking is a problem?

    What's the next problem, telling someone that when the sun goes down it gets dark?

    Maybe his y-dna line isn't English. Bradly88 lists his location as Pella, Iowa. There are a lot of descendants of Germans and Norwegians there. Maybe he is mostly English but his y-dna line is German or Norwegian; I don't know, and he didn't say.

    Emphasizing one's autosomal dna over his y-dna is also a matter of personal choice and is usually influenced by the emotions, as well, especially if for some reason one isn't happy with his y-dna results.

    And it isn't a matter of the relative amounts of dna involved. The brain comprises only about 2% of a person's body weight. The heart is less than 0.5% of a person's body weight. Clearly the importance of some things far exceeds what percentage of the mere physical whole they constitute.

    Y-dna signifies something far greater than mere biology. It is not itself spiritual, but it represents a spiritual heritage, the unbroken connection to one's fathers.
    Last edited by rms2; 06-17-2018 at 03:59 PM.
     


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  5. #13
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    I've never seen that last theme put better. That's certainly how I feel about my forefathers and my Y line. Thanks.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradly88 View Post
    Here are my Family Tree DNA test results:

    British Isles: 65%
    Scandinavia: 18%
    Southeast Europe: 9%
    Iberia: 6%
    Central Asia: 1%
    West and Central Europe: 1%

    Being of mostly English origin, would I of Celtic Briton origin? Any comment are most welcome.
    I would assume bradly88's ancestry is largely British Celtic in any case given that the Anglo-Saxon contribution to the modern English is likely to be considerably below 50 percent based on the DNA results to date. That Scandinavian does look high though and I don't know how typical that is for FTDNA. I agree that we can also identify with our Y line. I think I'm mostly of "Celtic" descent, but I'm interested to discover recently that my Y branch (Peak District, Derbyshire) matches a German at about 2,000 years ago to our TMRCA (rounding to the nearest thousand years as these are only estimates) and a Swede at 1,000 on an offshoot that we form together. More evidence may emerge, but I think that already tells me something about who my forefathers were and how they came to this land. That is something beyond price for me.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I would assume bradly88's ancestry is largely British Celtic in any case given that the Anglo-Saxon contribution to the modern English is likely to be considerably below 50 percent based on the DNA results to date. That Scandinavian does look high though and I don't know how typical that is for FTDNA . . .
    While I agree with you in general, I would caution that it depends to a large extent on just where in England his English ancestors came from. The eastern coast of England, especially SE England, is likely to be largely Anglo-Saxon and Danish Viking by descent. As one moves north and west, the percentage of Celtic ancestry probably increases.

    Bradly88 does have a pretty high Scandinavian percentage, which could be meaningful.
     


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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    While I agree with you in general, I would caution that it depends to a large extent on just where in England his English ancestors came from. The eastern coast of England, especially SE England, is likely to be largely Anglo-Saxon and Danish Viking by descent. As one moves north and west, the percentage of Celtic ancestry probably increases.

    Bradly88 does have a pretty high Scandinavian percentage, which could be meaningful.
    I agree with this, but I will note even SE England is not entirely Anglo-Saxon, I believe the average is around 38% with significant variation around this.

    There seems to be a Celtic gradient in England (keep in mind English populations seem to deviate in two directions -- a northern Celtic population more closely related to Scots/Irish that is on a gradient from Yorkshire to Scotland, and a southern Celtic population more closely related to Wales on a gradient from SE England to Cornwall.

    So it seems to go like this based on the Insular Celtic paper.. it seems SE England has a Celtic component more similar to that of England from Cheshire southward, and to Wales:

    Southern Celtic, as deviating from SE England ("Welsh like")
    SE England (least) --> West Midlands --> Devon --> Welsh border regions (i.e. Wiltshire, Gloucestershire, etc) --> Cheshire --> Cornwall (most)

    Northern Celtic, as deviating from Yorkshire ("Scottish like"):
    Yorkshire (least) --> NE England --> Cumbria --> North Scotland --> South Scotland/Northern Ireland (most)


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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I agree with this, but I will note even SE England is not entirely Anglo-Saxon, I believe the average is around 38% with significant variation around this . . .
    This is an honest question. Where are you getting that figure of 38%, and upon what is it based, actual ancient dna results or comparison to some modern continental population?

    Also, I couldn't make that graphic any larger, not with any clarity, so it was more of Rorschach test for me than anything else.
     


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    I wouldn't be surprised if Southeast England turned out to have most of its genetic influence from the continent post Bronze Age, either from the Roman occupation, Medieval French and Low Countries migrants, or both.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    This is an honest question. Where are you getting that figure of 38%, and upon what is it based, actual ancient dna results or comparison to some modern continental population?
    This is off the top of my head, but 38% is one of the more generous estimates for A/S contributions to the region. Some are closer to 20%.

    Edit: The POBI estimate is between 10-40%:

    "Based on these two contributions, the best estimates for the proportion of presumed Anglo-Saxon ancestry in the large eastern, central and southern England cluster (red squares) are a maximum of 40% and could be as little as 10%."
    https://peopleofthebritishisles.web....ation-genetics

    Based on the few East Anglian results we see here I doubt that the SE English are incredibly consistent in this.
    Last edited by sktibo; 06-17-2018 at 04:43 PM.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Eastern European and Eastern German (Galicia, Poland) 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    This is an honest question. Where are you getting that figure of 38%, and upon what is it based, actual ancient dna results or comparison to some modern continental population?

    Also, I couldn't make that graphic any larger, not with any clarity, so it was more of Rorschach test for me than anything else.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...opulation.html

    This refers to a study.

    Basically I think it makes sense that SE England is roughly 30-40% Anglo-Saxon, and then this decreases as you go west and north. Though this likely does not account for Danish Viking admixture which would be added to that for eastern England.

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  19. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    . . .

    This is off the top of my head, but 38% is one of the more generous estimates for A/S contributions to the region. Some are closer to 20%.
    Off the top of my head, I would say 20% is a trifle low for eastern England but probably about right farther west and north.

    IMHO, POBI is nice, but I want to see what happens when more actual Late Roman Period/Early Medieval Anglo-Saxon results are published and what happens when we get some actual Danish-Viking-in-England dna.

    There has been a lot of autosomal dna water under the bridge since the 5th-11th centuries.
    Last edited by rms2; 06-17-2018 at 04:50 PM.
     


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