Page 3 of 45 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 441

Thread: How much of my English ancestry is Celtic Briton?

  1. #21
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,305
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    American
    mtDNA (M)
    H
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a

    United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    Based on the few East Anglian results we see here I doubt that the SE English are incredibly consistent in this.
    I have several kits from SE England but not East Anglia. Some of them are closer to Ireland/western Scotland, others to Germany/Denmark. The least Germanic one I have is from Essex.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sikeliot For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (06-17-2018),  JonikW (06-17-2018)

  3. #22
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,109
    Sex
    Location
    British Columbia
    Ethnicity
    Métis
    Nationality
    Canadian
    mtDNA (M)
    T2B-T152C
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Z198 (DF27)

    Canada England Scotland Germany Poland France
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Off the top of my head, I would say 20% is a trifle low for eastern England but probably about right farther west and north.
    I edited my post - 10% is actually the lowest estimate. I'm not sure it is too low - I'm also not sure that the estimates closer to 40% are incorrect. The autosomal results I have seen for Norfolk and his mother (East Anglian) suggest continental migration as a possibility for the largest source of ancestry rather than Anglo Saxons or Danes. Of course a "hard Germanic" element is not missing there, it just isn't as prominent as one might expect. I think there's bound to be a solid variance in the SE English peoples today - they seem to be very mixed, which I suppose makes sense as they're the closest to mainland Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I have several kits from SE England but not East Anglia. Some of them are closer to Ireland/western Scotland, others to Germany/Denmark. The least Germanic one I have is from Essex.
    Very interesting, so that does line up with there being quite a variance then.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Eastern European and Eastern German (Galicia, Poland) 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sktibo For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (06-17-2018),  JonikW (06-17-2018),  Robert1 (08-24-2018)

  5. #23
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    11,629
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-FGC36981

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I have several kits from SE England but not East Anglia. Some of them are closer to Ireland/western Scotland, others to Germany/Denmark. The least Germanic one I have is from Essex.
    And England has experienced a lot immigration from Ireland, Scotland and Wales over the years.

    It might be difficult to find a modern English family without ancestors in those places. Hard to attribute that to ancient Britons who were living in SE England.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  6. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Caledonian (06-17-2018),  JMcB (06-17-2018),  JonikW (06-17-2018),  msmarjoribanks (06-18-2018),  Robert1 (08-24-2018)

  7. #24
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,185
    Sex
    Location
    Tierra de Ayllon
    Nationality
    Vespuccian
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z41150>Z49>

    England Scotland Wales Germany Northern Ireland Ireland
    Just to add my own two cents to the y-dna vs autsomal discussion. I believe "you can have your cake and eat it too". I take into consideration both as autosomallly I place squarely in between Anglo-Saxon samples (I'm the black + symbol)


    And based on the recent discovery of U152>L2 in a Hallstaat grave, my y-dna line is probably of Continental Celtic origin. As to when my paternal showed up in England is still unknown, but I catch myself identifying with Celtic Britons as it relates to my y-dna line.

    Your y-dna and mtDNA lines have something going for them that other lines don't. They let you trace a particular line back further than what can be done via autosomal testing. Whether that is of interest is an individual's choice.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 06-17-2018 at 06:02 PM.
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

  8. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     Bollox79 (06-19-2018),  JMcB (06-17-2018),  JonikW (06-17-2018),  rms2 (06-17-2018)

  9. #25
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,305
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    American
    mtDNA (M)
    H
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a

    United States of America
    The other thing to consider is some of the Celts in England could have been related to Belgic tribes more closely than to Gaels. Since Belgium is right where Celts and Germanics lived side by side, there could have been a smaller difference than expected.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sikeliot For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (06-17-2018),  JonikW (06-17-2018)

  11. #26
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,762
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    How do you estimate the Britonic and A-S component?

    I guess the NPCA of Davidski with the A-S and Britons is a good one.....

    My father and I plot very close to the A-S:



    We are the blue crosses. Especially my father and I plot closer tot the early A-S and more on the Germanic side than Vestri, Timberwolf...

    But no wonder because my parents ancestry, and especially that of my father, has an coastal North Dutch ancestry (full of A-S, Nordic influx).

    To take for example countries in general (like in the research mentioned in the daily mail) is very tricky..

    Take for example my mothers admixture results:


    This are my mothers results in K15 and K13, partly A-S result with North Dutch and Danish, but also SE England, Ireland, West Scotland!!! >>>Sikeliot!

    1 Orcadian @ 5.061007
    2 North_Dutch @ 5.364118
    3 Danish @ 5.711246
    4 Southeast_English @ 5.874795
    5 Irish @ 6.246573
    6 Norwegian @ 6.383976
    7 Southwest_English @ 6.519495

    1 North_Dutch @ 4.903157
    2 Southwest_English @ 5.610389
    3 Danish @ 5.651878
    4 Southeast_English @ 6.074092
    5 Irish @ 6.319037
    6 West_Scottish @ 6.375203
    7 Norwegian @ 6.405447
    8 Orcadian @ 7.137194
    9 North_German @ 7.495936
    10 West_Norwegian @ 7.791859
    8 North_German @ 6.652251
    9 West_Scottish @ 6.945525
    10 Swedish @ 7.253519

    So would you take my mother as a proxy for A-S than the result would not be not ok because she has also a big other kind of component, close to SE-England, Ireland, West-Scotland !!!
    Last edited by Finn; 06-17-2018 at 06:03 PM.

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     Bollox79 (06-19-2018),  JMcB (06-17-2018),  JonikW (06-17-2018)

  13. #27
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,265
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    Isles Celto-Germanic
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    V
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 Z140+ A21912+

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Off the top of my head, I would say 20% is a trifle low for eastern England but probably about right farther west and north.

    IMHO, POBI is nice, but I want to see what happens when more actual Late Roman Period/Early Medieval Anglo-Saxon results are published and what happens when we get some actual Danish-Viking-in-England dna.

    There has been a lot of autosomal dna water under the bridge since the 5th-11th centuries.
    I agree. I'm particularly keen to see if we get the Repton results from the Great Heathen Army that were said to be in the works now that I know more about my Y line. Repton is just down the road from where my line came from. We haven't had as much aDNA as I'd hoped recently.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (06-17-2018),  rms2 (06-17-2018)

  15. #28
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,588
    Sex
    Location
    Florida, USA.
    Ethnicity
    English, Scottish & Irish
    Nationality
    American
    mtDNA (M)
    H1e2
    mtDNA (P)
    K1
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-A13243

    England Scotland Ireland Prussia Italy Two Sicilies United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    This is an honest question. Where are you getting that figure of 38%, and upon what is it based, actual ancient dna results or comparison to some modern continental population?

    Also, I couldn't make that graphic any larger, not with any clarity, so it was more of Rorschach test for me than anything else.
    I believe that 38% number comes from this study:

    Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon genomes from East England reveal British migration history

    Stephan Schiffels, Wolfgang Haak, Pirita Paajanen, Bastien Llamas, Elizabeth Popescu, Louise Loe, Rachel Clarke, Alice Lyons, Richard Mortimer, Duncan Sayer, Chris Tyler-Smith, Alan Cooper & Richard Durbin

    Abstract

    British population history has been shaped by a series of immigrations, including the early Anglo-Saxon migrations after 400 CE. It remains an open question how these events affected the genetic composition of the current British population. Here, we present whole-genome sequences from 10 individuals excavated close to Cambridge in the East of England, ranging from the late Iron Age to the middle Anglo-Saxon period. By analysing shared rare variants with hundreds of modern samples from Britain and Europe, we estimate that on average the contemporary East English population derives 38% of its ancestry from Anglo-Saxon migrations. We gain further insight with a new method, rarecoal, which infers population history and identifies fine-scale genetic ancestry from rare variants. Using rarecoal we find that the Anglo-Saxon samples are closely related to modern Dutch and Danish populations, while the Iron Age samples share ancestors with multiple Northern European populations including Britain.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10408
    Last edited by JMcB; 06-17-2018 at 06:31 PM.

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to JMcB For This Useful Post:

     JohnHowellsTyrfro (06-17-2018),  JonikW (06-17-2018),  rms2 (06-17-2018)

  17. #29
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,919
    Sex
    Location
    South East Wales UK
    Ethnicity
    Welsh
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c1b2a
    Y-DNA (P)
    U106 Z326 R-BY27310

    United Kingdom Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    This is an honest question. Where are you getting that figure of 38%, and upon what is it based, actual ancient dna results or comparison to some modern continental population?

    Also, I couldn't make that graphic any larger, not with any clarity, so it was more of Rorschach test for me than anything else.
    "Ancient genomes reveal that the English are one third Anglo-Saxon"

    "By sequencing the DNA from ten skeletons from the late Iron Age and the Anglo-Saxon period, we obtained the first complete ancient genomes from Great Britain. Comparing these ancient genomes with sequences of hundreds of modern European genomes, we estimate that 38 per cent of the ancestors of the English (East of England) were Anglo-Saxons. This is the first direct estimate of the impact of immigration into Britain from the 5th to 7th Centuries AD and the traces left in modern England." Dr Stephan Schiffels, first author from the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, Cambridgeshire and the Max Plank Institute in Germany.

    https://www.sanger.ac.uk/news/view/a...rd-anglo-saxon

    "Why the idea that the English have a common Anglo-Saxon origin is a myth"

    The analysis of DNA of four individuals from the Oakington Anglo-Saxon cemetery identified that one of them was a match with the Iron Age genome, two were closest to modern Dutch genomes, and one was a hybrid of the two. Each of these burials was culturally Anglo-Saxon because they were buried in the same way, in the same cemetery. In fact, the richest assemblage of Anglo-Saxon artefacts came from the individual with the match for Iron Age genetic ancestry, and so was not a migrant at all........

    It shows that these ancient people did not distinguish biological heritage from cultural association. In other words, someone who lived and died in the fifth or sixth century Anglo-Saxon village of Oakington could have been biologically related to an earlier inhabitant of England, a recent migrant from continental Europe or a descendent of either or both – they were all treated the same in death....

    The results from our recent study were published in Nature Communications and included evidence from an Anglo-Saxon site I excavated in Oakington, Cambridgeshire. In total ten skeletons where investigated. These included seven early medieval graves dating to between the fifth and eighth century – four from Oakington and three from Hinxton – and three earlier Iron Age graves from Cambridgeshire, dating to between the second century BC and the first century AD, to provide the genome of the antecedent inhabitants of Briton....

    Anglo-Saxon ancestry is a modern English myth – the English are not descended from one group of people, but from many and that persists in our culture and in our genes."

    Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-12-idea-e...-myth.html#jCp

    I would bet there may be a fair proportion of Norse/Viking or Norman in that estimated "Anglo Saxon" percentage in the South and East of England.
    Last edited by JohnHowellsTyrfro; 06-17-2018 at 06:07 PM. Reason: afterthought

  18. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to JohnHowellsTyrfro For This Useful Post:

     ADW_1981 (06-20-2018),  JMcB (06-17-2018),  JonikW (06-17-2018),  Robert1 (08-24-2018),  Saetro (06-19-2018),  tipirneni (06-17-2018)

  19. #30
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,762
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Those 38% looks to high especially when they take the Dutch (and Danish) as a proxy.....

    Because many Dutch have high SE England, Irish and West-Scottish results in the admixtures.

    So when they are taken as proxy for A-S than the A-S component gets to high because they include the "SE England, Irish, West Scottish" component.....

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     JohnHowellsTyrfro (06-18-2018),  JonikW (06-17-2018)

Page 3 of 45 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Typical English 23 ancestry composition
    By A Norfolk L-M20 in forum 23andMe
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 07-29-2019, 02:17 PM
  2. English ancestry
    By tjlowery87 in forum General
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-03-2017, 10:19 PM
  3. No, Afrikaners do not have British or English ancestry
    By firemonkey in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-24-2017, 05:13 PM
  4. Iberian and mostly English ancestry
    By firemonkey in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 07-11-2016, 08:38 PM
  5. Ancestry DNA vs GEDMATCH, Scottish vs English
    By dargen430 in forum AncestryDNA
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-29-2016, 02:38 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •